South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[sa_bushwar]

Earlier in the thread, there was speculation about the actual amount of Centurions, and which marks, were originally ordered by South Africa in the 1950's.

Thanks for the Centurion numbers data.


On the topic of engine output it is worthwhile noting that if the South African Centurion using a Continental Motors 1790 cubic inch engine powering a Merritt-Brown transmission there will be more torque going into the drive sprocket than the same engine in a Patton or Israeli Centurion powering a hydrostatic transmission. Because the hydrostatic transmission needs to use a fair slice of that engine output to power its cooling system to keep the transmission oil within temperature ranges. A cooling need that is only made worse in dry, high temperature and high altitude environments like those found in Southern Africa.

Here is a picture of the Continental V12 diesel used in the Centurions - on display at the Military History Museum, Saxonwold, JHB. Maybe someone nearby can go and read the description plate next to the exhibit for more detail?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Earlier in the thread, there was speculation about the actual amount of Centurions, and which marks, were originally ordered by South Africa in the 1950's.

Thanks for the Centurion numbers data.


On the topic of engine output it is worthwhile noting that if the South African Centurion using a Continental Motors 1790 cubic inch engine powering a Merritt-Brown transmission there will be more torque going into the drive sprocket than the same engine in a Patton or Israeli Centurion powering a hydrostatic transmission. Because the hydrostatic transmission needs to use a fair slice of that engine output to power its cooling system to keep the transmission oil within temperature ranges. A cooling need that is only made worse in dry, high temperature and high altitude environments like those found in Southern Africa.

Here is a picture of the Continental V12 diesel used in the Centurions - on display at the Military History Museum, Saxonwold, JHB. Maybe someone nearby can go and read the description plate next to the exhibit for more detail?

Another view of the V12 air-cooled Continental, and the nameplate with model number.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Finally received my copy of surviving the ride. Very nice book! Certainly worth getting. Lots if interesting photo's and a some of the info in the book addresses questions we have had and speculated about in this forum, for instance the various vehicles of project REMARK. Not a word however about the mystery 8x8 wreck, presumably Sprinkaan, at the School of Armour Museum, inBloemfontein.

Here is a walk around of the "Springkaan"? (Grasshopper) at the Armour Museum in Bloemfontein. Noticeable are the Magirus Deutz axles, (and probably engine). It would have been built in the 70's (or early 80's?) when the SADF still made use of 6x6 Magirus Deutz trucks as gun tractors for the 140mm (5.5') guns, and as a recovery vehicle. Exhaust fumes is a problem for occupants in front engined vehicles, so in this prototype a crude steel pipe was used to extend the exhaust towards the back. Was it part of project Pampoen (Ratel development), or project Velskoen (Ratel replacement)?

Pity to see that the Springkaan has now been relegated to the armoured vehicle driving course as a "prop" for training; where it will further be exposed to the elements. The Krokodil 6x6 is also still there. Near the Springkaan an operational (T72? or T80?) can be seen.

 

[compton_effect]

Anyone seen the armored MAN 8x8 truck that plies its trade in SA. Seen it many times on M1 and N1 and also at reserve bank in Durban. I believe it carries bullion and typically is escorted by many tactual reaction police vans and cars as well as a chopper . Seen a blue one and yesterday a white one

There was always a black one that used the N1. I actually heard that it belonged to DHL couriers and was on contract to the state for high value cargo.

 

[panzerskool]

seen that one too, always has a police chopper above the whole way along the freeway.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Command Ratel?

 

[sa_bushwar]

ex-SAP Casspir used by the Riot Squad (Onluste Eenheid) in pre-1994 SA in the Townships. This Casspir displays unusual gun portholes and camouflage scheme compared to most other Casspirs, and appears to be an earlier version. The common gun portholes are square as shown, covered with a spring loaded plate that can be pushed outwards and open with the gun barrel.

 

[kaiserbill]

Looks like an early variant indeed.....those gun ports look like they are shaped for the R1 (FN FAL) front handguard, before they simply went for a more generic opening suited to a greater variety of weapons....so possibly this vehicle is a very early prototype?

 

[sa_bushwar]

From FB:

Built on a Ford bakkie chassis, the Ribbok was an early MRV built by the Defence Research Unit (DRU) of the CSIR. Used in limited numbers by the SAP (and SADF?) on the Border in the 1970's. 193 were built, 86 for the SAP and 106 for private use. There was 1 prototype.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The Mountain Lion - new offering from DCD: http://www.dcd.co.za/

 

[sa_bushwar]

The Mountain Lion - new offering from DCD: http://www.dcd.co.za/

The real thing...

 

[patetlao]

Other photos and video of this Mountain Lion 4x4x4 :

http://shushpanzer-ru.livejournal.com/2040254.html

 

[curious george]

More results from fb lurking.

 

[curious george]

Also from fb, but I believe these are a 1st:

 

[kaiserbill]

Great pics CG.
I think I recall that two Ratel Logs were built? That looks like extended trials.

 

[kaiserbill]

Actually, having a look at those new Ratel Log pics on the last page that CG posted, it is clear that the engine has been changed from the usual Ratel engine. The engine extends over the entire rear width of the vehicle, and the rear exit troop door is gone.
I wonder what engine was fitted? In fact, I don't think I've ever seen definitive specifications of the Ratel Log published.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Also from fb, but I believe these are a 1st:

Each Badger has a different turret...

 

[sa_bushwar]

More results from fb lurking.

Surroundings look like Genl de la Rey artillery shooting range outside Potch, where the SADF often did mobility trials under the auspices of prof Hekkie Harmse from the local university.

 

[sa_bushwar]

More results from fb lurking.

A closer look at the back of the vehicle seems to indicate the engine is in the same place as the original Ratel, with additional ventilation at the back and right rear to compensate for the loss of ventilation at the top?

Maybe someone can determine from the empty engine bay picture what power plant was fitted?

 

[curious george]

*off fbook

 

[Dinges]

In reply to post #1378

I do not know if this has been mentioned.

The tracks on this TTD are identical to the Diehl 570FT tracks on the Leo 2

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 1430
Full specifications of the Ratel Log were published in Janes' Armour and Artillery 1985-86. Some key specifications include and empty weight of 19 tons and a combat weight of 29 tons. Overall length 8.74 meters and the width the same as the Ratel: 2.516 meters. The total wheelbase was 5.9 meters which, as far as I can tell, was made up of: 1.4 x 3.1 x 1.4 meters. The engine was an ADE 423 V10 diesel developing 430hp at 2300 rpm. This was the Mercedes OM 423 engine assembled by ADE. It is about 19 liters in capacity. This same block was used by MAN to build their V10 engine and this engine is also used in the Rooikat but it is higher rated in the latter vehicle. Fuel capacity of the Log was 560 liters compared to 430 liters for the standard Ratel.

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post # 1430
Full specifications of the Ratel Log were published in Janes' Armour and Artillery 1985-86. Some key specifications include and empty weight of 19 tons and a combat weight of 29 tons. Overall length 8.74 meters and the width the same as the Ratel: 2.516 meters. The total wheelbase was 5.9 meters which, as far as I can tell, was made up of: 1.4 x 3.1 x 1.4 meters. The engine was an ADE 423 V10 diesel developing 430hp at 2300 rpm. This was the Mercedes OM 423 engine assembled by ADE. It is about 19 liters in capacity. This same block was used by MAN to build their V10 engine and this engine is also used in the Rooikat but it is higher rated in the latter vehicle. Fuel capacity of the Log was 560 liters compared to 430 liters for the standard Ratel.

Excellent, thanks Herman.
So, it appears I was right about a new engine for the Log.
It made sense considering the enlarged size and extra axle over the vanilla Ratels.
It's whole purpose was to keep up with the mechanised columns, so not much use if it couldn't.

 

[Herman]

I have often wondered what a 8 x 8 Ratel would have been like? It would have been smaller than the Log (shorter) because the space between the second and third axle need not be as long as on the Log. On the German Spähpanzer, it is just under 2.4 meters. A 8 x 8 Ratel, using the same MAN axles, would then have had a wheelbase of 1.4 x 2.4 x 1.4, total 5.2 meters compared to 4.2 meters for the 6 x 6 Ratel. The overall length of the vehicle would have been about 8 meters and the combat weight, using the same turret as the Ratel, about 21 tons. Would it have been better than the Ratel as we know it? It would have been bigger and would probably have been able to take 2 or three additional troops (driver, commander, gunner and 10 dismounts). Trench crossing ability would have been substantially improved and this has been a critisism of the 6 x 6 Ratel. The turning circle would have been larger though. One of the other critisisms against the Ratel is the position of the engine, requiring the troops to dismount through side doors. On an 8 x 8, the engine could have been put in the space between the second and third axle, with the transmission next to it. This was entirely feasible in the seventies: the German 6 x 6 Transportpanzer used this kind of lay-out. The engine would have been either the Mecedes 10 cilinder unit used in the Log (it was also used in the Spähpanzer, at a rating of 400hp) or the Deutz unit used in the Samil 100, but in the turbocharged version (Deutz BF10L413, developing 400hp at 2500 rpm.). The lay-out of such a vehicle would have been the driver centre-front with the turret behind him, exactly the same as the 6 x 6 Ratel. The engine compartment would be on the left, behind the turret, with a narrow passage between the driver/turret compartment at front and the troop compartment at the rear, to the right of the engine bay. In this passage would be an exit door, similar to that in the 6 x 6 ratel, between the second and third axle. Behind the engine bay would be the troop compartment.

 

[kaiserbill]

I guess one would also look at the armoured car based on Ratel mechanicals, but in 8x8 format.
I actually find this vehicle quite interesting. Out of the various 8x8 and 6x6 prototypes that marked the beginning of the Rooikat project, this was the only one that seems to have made provision for troops. Well...sort of. The rear and side troop doors are gone as well as the vision/firing ports, but there are roof hatches for infantry, and a side exit hatch as can be seen on the attachment.
A strange vehicle all in all, with provision for troops but almost as an afterthought.
I think in an earlier post you mentioned Herman that the 8x8 Ratel Log and this 8x8 Ratel based prototype were different platforms?
Were the platforms different in size and/or wheelspacing?

TEST-BED, 8X8, CONCEPT 1, NEW GENERATION ARMOURED CAR PROJECT (RSA)Crew: 4

Combat Mass: 19 mt
Armament: 77 mm Mk 2 Gun, Manufactured in Britain for the Comet 1 Cruiser Tank (Trials only);
Ammunition: Shot Practice (Shooting Trials);
Engine: Model S12-DA, Bussing; 6 Cyl in-Line; Liquid Cooled; Diesel; 230 kW (308 hp) at 2 250 r/min
Transmission: RENK; HSV-106; Fully Automatic; 6 Fwd 1 Rev; Manual selection 1 - 6th and Rev Configuration - 8x8; Transverse and Longitudinal Differential locks
Speed: Road 105 km/h
Operating Range: Road 960 km
Purpose: New Generation Armoured Car Project

This test-bed was built around a Ratel Infantry Combat vehicle’s is rigid axle and drive line system. The test-bed was built by Sandock Austral (Pty) Ltd in Boksburg circa 1979. The test-bed was designed to test Concept design features, Suspension features, Soil mechanics and Gun firing stress mechanics. Firing trials were carried out with the muzzle brake fitted and removed. Firing angle stress was tested by positioning the gun over various positions in regard, to the vehicle's hull. Soil mechanics and suspension tests were carried out on specially prepared soil lanes assimilating most of the soils found in South Africa. The test area was prepared by the Potchefstroom University who also co-ordinated the tests. (1979)

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1436
The 8 x 8 Rooikat prototype was shorter than the Log. The wheelbase was 1.4 x 2.8 x 1.4. This was the standard Ratle's wheelbase with an axle added to the front. The engine was the same as the Ratel's but an intercooled version delivering more power. The transmission/transfer case between the second and third axles was the same as that of the ratel.


A 8 x 8 ratel would indeed have been somewhat similar to this prototype, possibly with a slightly shorter wheelbase. The wheelbase of this prototype is 5.6 meters. This is very long. The Italian Centauro Freccia 8x8 APC has a wheelbase of 4.8 meters, the big German/Dutch Boxer has a wheelbase of 4.95 metersand the French Nexter VBCI also has a wheelbase around 4.8 meters. Recent years have seen a proliferation of large, 8x8 "tour bus" APC's and they all have weheelbases less than 5 meters and overall lengths no longer than 8 meters. Interestingly, the Rooikat is a long beast, with a wheelbase of 5.2 meters. The 8x8 Rooikat prototype using Ratel beam axles had a wheelbase of 5.8 meters; 40cm longer than that of the Rooikat.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I have often wondered what a 8 x 8 Ratel would have been like? It would have been smaller than the Log (shorter) because the space between the second and third axle need not be as long as on the Log. On the German Spähpanzer, it is just under 2.4 meters. A 8 x 8 Ratel, using the same MAN axles, would then have had a wheelbase of 1.4 x 2.4 x 1.4, total 5.2 meters compared to 4.2 meters for the 6 x 6 Ratel. The overall length of the vehicle would have been about 8 meters and the combat weight, using the same turret as the Ratel, about 21 tons. Would it have been better than the Ratel as we know it? It would have been bigger and would probably have been able to take 2 or three additional troops (driver, commander, gunner and 10 dismounts). Trench crossing ability would have been substantially improved and this has been a critisism of the 6 x 6 Ratel. The turning circle would have been larger though. One of the other critisisms against the Ratel is the position of the engine, requiring the troops to dismount through side doors. On an 8 x 8, the engine could have been put in the space between the second and third axle, with the transmission next to it. This was entirely feasible in the seventies: the German 6 x 6 Transportpanzer used this kind of lay-out. The engine would have been either the Mecedes 10 cilinder unit used in the Log (it was also used in the Spähpanzer, at a rating of 400hp) or the Deutz unit used in the Samil 100, but in the turbocharged version (Deutz BF10L413, developing 400hp at 2500 rpm.). The lay-out of such a vehicle would have been the driver centre-front with the turret behind him, exactly the same as the 6 x 6 Ratel. The engine compartment would be on the left, behind the turret, with a narrow passage between the driver/turret compartment at front and the troop compartment at the rear, to the right of the engine bay. In this passage would be an exit door, similar to that in the 6 x 6 ratel, between the second and third axle. Behind the engine bay would be the troop compartment.

A closer look walkaround...

 

[sa_bushwar]

Any history out there about the development of the Casspir Groundshout, or is this the Plofadder launch vehicle?

 

[kaiserbill]

I don't know what that Casspir is. Maybe a mobile observation vehicle?
This below is part of the Casspir Plofadder mine clearance system.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I don't know what that Casspir is. Maybe a mobile observation vehicle?

Skyshout is the use of powerful speakers mounted on an aircraft to broadcast psychological warfare messages over broad areas to appeal to insurgent fighters. Groundshout is the same but from a land vehicle. The mast would be to raise the speakers above typical obstacles to sound like trees and the like.

During the VietNam War the Australian PSYWAR det found that broadcasting the painfully tailored and developed propaganda message translated into Vietnamese was nowhere near as effective as just playing Rolf Harris singing "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport" on a continuous loop. VC defections skyrocketed!

 

[kaiserbill]

I don't know what that Casspir is. Maybe a mobile observation vehicle?

Skyshout is the use of powerful speakers mounted on an aircraft to broadcast psychological warfare messages over broad areas to appeal to insurgent fighters. Groundshout is the same but from a land vehicle. The mast would be to raise the speakers above typical obstacles to sound like trees and the like.

During the VietNam War the Australian PSYWAR det found that broadcasting the painfully tailored and developed propaganda message translated into Vietnamese was nowhere near as effective as just playing Rolf Harris singing "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport" on a continuous loop. VC defections skyrocketed!

So is it definitely the Groundshout vehicle? I recall seeing a picture of one before, but it looked different to that. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, which is quite possible, not to mention probable. Naturally of course, I can't find a pic right now....


I recall seeing that the Groundshout teams played Hyena howls during the night to keep FAPLA troops awake and to spook them, but apparently it wasn't an unqualified success as it also spooked the UNITA troops who heard it.

 

[sa_bushwar]

During Operation Modular in 1987, the SADF experimented with Ground Shout propaganda against FAPLA. Apart from propaganda messages, others included music and the chilling sounds of laughing hyenas.

Below is a Ground Shout Casspir deployed in the townships for riot control and propaganda purposes.

Also shown are some ground shout messages used against FAPLA's 47 Bde, before its ultimate destruction on the Lomba river during Operation Modular.

 

[Herman]

Bushwar, there have been suggestions that you are working on a book. If so, when can we expect it. You apparently have a mass of very interesting information at your disposal.

 

[kaiserbill]

Okay, definitely a groundshout vehicle. Thanks.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Bushwar, there have been suggestions that you are working on a book. If so, when can we expect it. You apparently have a mass of very interesting information at your disposal.

For those that are interested, yes I'm working on a book on the Bush war. It is a part time hobby competing for time against a busy work- and family life, so there is no fixed completion date. Most likely within the next 24 months.

Many books have been written about certain Units, Operations or weapon systems. Very few, such as Willem Steenkamp's book, covering the whole war. The book will cover the chronology of the war briefly, but also the following: Causes of the conflict, Strategy and tactics of both sides, some large Operations in some detail - not all, overview and comparison of main weapon systems, development of MRV's, the fighting forces ORBAT and strengths, some personal accounts, SA and Regional politics as the backdrop to the conflict, impact of geography and climate on navigation, etc... Included with also be lots of pictures and graphics.

The difficulty with such a large topic is to decide the appropriate level of detail and what to leave out, to ensure a readable book that is both interesting and not too voluminous.

500 pages done, lot's of adding and editing still to be done....!

The intention is to self publish, something that is readily possible these days with modern computers and small printing companies. The purpose is not to make money from the book, it is a passion to record the military history of the conflict from both sides, be objective and factual as possible, in the light of the ignorance and distortions out there.

So in the near future I might push the button of some experts out there to assist filling in detail or double checking facts and figures.

 

[Herman]

Really looking forward to it!

 

[kaiserbill]

The Soetdoring (Sweetthorn) was another project or concept that was tested but not put into production. Timeframe was from the early-to-mid 1980's.

The above post is Reply No4 from Page 1 in this thread, from almost 6 years ago, where one can see a pic of the vehicle.
The Soetdoring vehicle was never taken up, and photos of it are incredibly scarce. In fact, before today, I can only recall seeing the previously published one in the post above.
Below is another pic of the Soetdoring, with the caption adding that it is being tested in 1981. The facility it is being tested at in both photos is the extensive Gerotek vehicle testing range, and so are probably from the same time.
So this appears to be a follow on/replacement vehicle to the earlier Buffer and Casspir, and I wonder if it wasn't the very early stage that culminated in the further development that led eventually to the Veldskoen and simpler Ingwe offshoot...

 

[Herman]

According to "Surviving the Ride", it was part of Project Illia'search for a new generation mine protected-vehicle. It was evaluated between August 1981 and April 1982. It used Ratel axles and suspension and apparently performed well. Problems were however experienced with the coolig system and transfer case, the front axle was over-loaded and the ergonomic lay-out was deemed unacceptable. No further development took place.

With the Ratel components, it would have been expensive as well.

 

[kaiserbill]

What other vehicles were part of Project Illia? Did it result in a final winner, or was the project superseded by another?

 

[Graugrun]

Another prototype that looks like it's now heading for production - and further development - the RG-35, now known as the N-35.

http://www.janes.com/article/55854/denel-announces-nimr-contract