South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[sa_bushwar]

Another topic not well researched are the Sabre vehicles used by the Pathfinders and Special Forces. Here is one armed with what seems like a 14.5mm and 2x 7.62mm FN MAG MG's. Possibly on a Landrover chassis?

 

[curious george]

Possibly on a Landrover chassis?

I believe it would be either a landrover or a landcruiser,they used both as a basis.

 

[CostasTT]

Another topic not well researched are the Sabre vehicles used by the Pathfinders and Special Forces. Here is one armed with what seems like a 14.5mm and 2x 7.62mm FN MAG MG's. Possibly on a Landrover chassis?

I don't think the big gun is a KPV. Going by the gas tube atop the barrel and what appears to be an ammo drum, I'd say it's a 20mm Hispano.

 

[curious george]

I I'd say it's a 20mm Hispano.

It was indeed,according to the author(Dave Barr?) of that book on the 44 Para pathfinders, the 20mm didn't work too well for them and they replaced it with a twin 12.7 browning mount instead on the "command" vehicle of Col Breytenbach.

They did use a 14.5mm later on,as well s a 60mm mortar, mounted on unimogs though.

 

[curious george]

Another pic of troops posing.

 

[JohnR]

Slightly off topic question, what was the purpose of the flat "hub caps" on the Ratel? Did they perform an engineering function or provide extra protection for the suspension or something else?

Regards.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Slightly off topic question, what was the purpose of the flat "hub caps" on the Ratel? Did they perform an engineering function or provide extra protection for the suspension or something else?

Regards.

Armour plating to protect the hubs, while the tyres were runflat types.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I I'd say it's a 20mm Hispano.

It was indeed,according to the author(Dave Barr?) of that book on the 44 Para pathfinders, the 20mm didn't work too well for them and they replaced it with a twin 12.7 browning mount instead on the "command" vehicle of Col Breytenbach.

They did use a 14.5mm later on,as well s a 60mm mortar, mounted on unimogs though.

Vidgrab of the Pathfinder Mog.

 

[sa_bushwar]

And then there was the Sespirr....a bit of a crazy idea.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1260
I think the caption should read: "Cross-country performance was not improved as much as hoped and the project was dropped"

 

[Rickshaw]

Was the objective improved cross-country performance or rather better mine survivability? I can't see how putting an unpowered donkey axle on the front would improve cross-country performance. I can see how it might help to detonate mines (slightly) earlier though, sacrificing the donkey axle.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Was the objective improved cross-country performance or rather better mine survivability? I can't see how putting an unpowered donkey axle on the front would improve cross-country performance.

Ditch crossing, bump climbing. Another set of wheels, even if unpowered, can make quite a difference.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1263
An extra axle is indeed useful for crossing ditches. With two axles in front and one at the back, the rear-end remains a problem, of course. The back wheels will drop into the ditch. The Dutch YP408 6x8 APC had an unpowered axle second from the front. It aided ditch crossing and also served as spare tyres. If a driven wheel was lost, one of the unpowered items could replace it while the suspension arm of the now wheel-less unit could be raised to keep it clear of the ground.
On the 6-wheeled Casspir, I think the axle in front was added to increase surviveability, i.e. remove the mine explosion further away from the crew, with as a second benefit, increased mobility. The problem is that such an undriven axle reduces mobility in soft sand and that is probably what made the thing unattractive. It would not have been particularly difficult, by the way, to make the second front axle driven: just fit a through-drive differential (a standard item) on the first front axle. The problem then is, however, that the vehicle becomes significantly more expensive, it becomes heavier, it will probably need a more powerful engine and transmission, fitting a second axle at the back then becomes an attractive propisition and pretty soon you have a totally different vehicle to the initial CASSPIR: a cheap and cheerful, easily repairable, mineproof truck.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Further to the Mysterious MANs of the Namib. I did notice in some of the leaked shooting photos for Mad Max 4: Fury Road which was filmed in Namibia that one of the wasteland war buggies is a MAN 8x8 with stuff added to the top of it... Hilarious if it’s one of the same trucks, likely total coincidence.

It looks like George Miller's vision of the MAN 8x8 in Namibia is a bit different to that of the SADF.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I'm looking for pictures and information about the prototype Plofadders that were used in Ops Modular, Hooper and Packer in 1988/89. It was a vitally important new weapon to breach the extensive mine fields behind which the FAPLA forces took in depth defensive positions. The prototype plofadders however often failed to deploy or detonate, delaying the SADF advance. Was it the man-pack version, or the version mounted and launched from a Casspir? The extract from the signal dated 15-10-87 below suggests it was the Casspir mounted versions.

English translation:
Your signal xxxx refers - The Plofadder is air transportable. This HQ does not support the air transport of the vehicle. The Plofadders (two prototypes) will be repaired and send by road to 24 Field Sqn if this request is approved by the Branch HQ Rundu after approval of the Planning (- for Ops Modular).

Just to explain, the plofadder is a rocket propelled rope charge to breach a way through a mine field. (Named after the Puff Adder, an African snake)

Is this a Plofadder Casspir?

 

[Dinges]

I'm looking for pictures and information about the prototype Plofadders that were used in Ops Modular, Hooper and Packer in 1988/89. It was a vitally important new weapon to breach the extensive mine fields behind which the FAPLA forces took in depth defensive positions. The prototype plofadders however often failed to deploy or detonate, delaying the SADF advance. Was it the man-pack version, or the version mounted and launched from a Casspir? The extract from the signal dated 15-10-87 below suggests it was the Casspir mounted versions.

English translation:
Your signal xxxx refers - The Plofadder is air transportable. This HQ does not support the air transport of the vehicle. The Plofadders (two prototypes) will be repaired and send by road to 24 Field Sqn if this request is approved by the Branch HQ Rundu after approval of the Planning (- for Ops Modular).

Just to explain, the plofadder is a rocket propelled rope charge to breach a way through a mine field. (Named after the Puff Adder, an African snake)

Is this a Plofadder Casspir?

Yes.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Is this an EW Buffel? (From www).

 

[kaiserbill]

Not sure, but those generators must be for something....


I finally found a pic of the SAHV turret on a G6 chassis.


We've seen it on the extended Rooikat chassis, that was to complement the twin 35mm ZA-35 SPAAG, but so far, I'd only seen reports stating that both the missile turret and the twin 35mm were considered for a variety of chassis, the G6 included.



Now we know it wasn't simply considered.
One wonders whether the twin 35mm was also done...

 

[kaiserbill]

And another, better pic.
I wonder if they are 2 different chassis/vehicles?


Different paint scheme, armoured hubs, and missile arrangement...


EDIT: In fact, looking a little closer, the sensor array might be slightly different too.
A pity the first pic is of such poor quality, but it's the only one I managed to get hold of.

 

[Rickshaw]

They appear to be different turret configurations with the launch containers arranged rather differently. I'd have thought the G6 chassis was a bit big and a bit too expensive for such a weapon system. Without the 155mm turret it would though, be a hell of a cross-country vehicle, I suspect.

 

[kaiserbill]

Again, from the same African Armed Forces report about DEXSA 92.


Until now, I'd only seen artwork or drawings of the ZA-35 twin 35mm turret mounted onto the T-72 tank chassis, as seen in this thread, and assumed it hadn't reached hardware status.


The below photo shows I assumed incorrectly.

 

[JohnR]

And another, better pic.
I wonder if they are 2 different chassis/vehicles?


Different paint scheme, armoured hubs, and missile arrangement...


EDIT: In fact, looking a little closer, the sensor array might be slightly different too.
A pity the first pic is of such poor quality, but it's the only one I managed to get hold of.

Seem's a lot of vehicle for only four missiles.

 

[kaiserbill]

Seem's a lot of vehicle for only four missiles.

In Southern Angola in the late 80's when in support of UNITA stopping the Cuban/FAPLA offensive, the Olifant tank and G-6 did all the bundu-bashing/route clearance through the bush. We're talking vast distances in places with very little infrastructure, hence why such logistics vehicles such as the 8x8 Ratel Log, the LZN, and that big Skerpioen 8x8 came into being.


I suppose the thought was far better to have the missiles to hand than mired and tangled somewhere uselessly to the rear, hence why the two really impressive armoured cross country vehicle chassis, Rooikat and G-6, were primarily considered.


Radar folding completely to be protected by the turret rear, as well as other turret design features, point to the effects that the thick bush had on design...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Seem's a lot of vehicle for only four missiles.

The Marksman twin 35mm air defence version of the G6 appeared soon after the UAE brought the G6 as their new 155mm SPG. I would imagine the SAHV and GA-35 versions might be in a similar time frame. The idea being you are more likely to sell an air defence platform to the UAE Army that uses a common chassis with their main artillery system. The G6 providing such a chassis with plenty of carrying capacity and mobility compared to their other standard vehicles like the BMP-3 and far more accessible for design work compared to the French Leclerc.

 

[kaiserbill]

Two previously unseen photos of the two prototype Rooikat SPAAM and SPAAG.
In the second photo of the ZA-35, it appears that this was an exhibition of some sort. In the backround are various radar visible, as well as what looks like SAHV missile containers?


I wonder if one of those radar antennae in the picture belongs to another Rooikat based air defence system, such as the SPAAM....


How many prototypes and/or mock-ups of these air defence vehicles were created?


So far we have seen the Rooikat SPAAG and SPAAM, the ZA-35 turret on the T-72, and possibly more than one SPAAM mounted on the G-6....
Naturally, there is a good chance that turrets were recycled to test and display on different vehicles.

 

[kaiserbill]

Earlier in the thread, Curious George posted a couple of pics of the large 8x8 armoured vehicle.
These can be found in Reply 971 and 973 on Pg 65[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif].[/font]
There was speculation that it was called Skerpioen (Scorpion), and Curious George followed it up with Reply 1244 on Pg 83 with what looked like a modified version on display with a Rooikat engine at the end of a crane mounted to the rear.


I've stumbled across the following:

8x8 Maintenance and Repair Vehicle (MRV)


The vehicle is powered by a 14,618 litre cylinder (V-configuration) diesel engine (260kW, 1,600Nm) through a 9-speed gearbox and a transfer box with a 27/73% and 50/50% torque split options. The two front axles, both driven and steered, have a capacity of 8t each, and the rear axles 14t each.


The cab can accommodate a crew of four with kit and gives protection against mines, shrapnel, and small-arms fire.
The vehicle is 11,862mm long, 2,600mm wide, and the GVM is 44,000kg.
Special equipment includes a diesel generator and tyre inflation system operated within the cab, a LNS 90 Manpack navigational system, a 23kW air-conditioning system, and several radios.


The load area is fitted with ISO twist locks to accept either a 6m ISO container or several combinations of 3m and 1,5m containers. In it's normal application as a MRV, the load consists of one 3m container, two 1,5m containers, and a 30 ton meter low profile crane with a 3,5 ton winch.
The 3m container is equipped with electrical and hand tools for general repair and maintenance of vehicles such as the G-6, Olifant MBT, Rooikat, Ratel, and SAMIL.


The first 1,5m container has a 2000 litre water tank, steam-cleaning equipment, air compressor, and 15 kVA 3-phase generator. Special tools and spares for a specific weapon system (eg: G-6) are stored in the second 1,5m container.


Although the vehicle was designed to be used as an MRV, it can also be adapted for other applications, such as roll on/roll off, heavy recovery, and even as an artillery tractor. A bigger engine option is also available.

 

[kaiserbill]

So, this appears to be the same vehicle variant Curious George posted in his 3rd post.


The text also states that there were other roles for this vehicle, which would explain why the vehicle in his first 2 posts had a different configuration. Maybe it was the "roll on/roll off" version described in the text?


Confirming my impressions earlier, the text show this to be a very large vehicle...44 ton GVM and almost 12 meters long.


The text comes from a report from African Armed Forces Journal from 20 years ago, in 1994.
I suspect the text might mean a 3 ton crane instead of 30 tons?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Heah Kaisar a good tip for scanning images from thin paper is to put a piece of black paper behind the sheet. Gets rid of that graining that appears.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks for the tip!

 

[kaiserbill]

Just a follow up on those large 8x8 vehicles (MAN?) that earlier in the thread, at least one of which was a bridgelayer.


I came across this (low quality) photo from a while back showing at least 6 in a vehicle park, on the bottom right hand corner.

 

[panzerskool]

what trucks are those middle right? look like Bell articulated loader cabs

 

[Abraham Gubler]

what trucks are those middle right? look like Bell articulated loader cabs

Stands to reason. Looks like the vehicle park for an engineering unit. There is a range of earth moving plant on the left so having some dump trucks would make sense.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Anyone knows what this modified Mamba was used for?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know more about these Cuban/Soviet? vehicles encountered in 1978/88 with Ops Modular, Hooper and Packer? It seems to be copying the SADF mine resistant V-shaped hulls and being armoured against small caliber fire. There is still a wreck of such a vehicle next to the Cuito Cuanevale bridge.

 

[curious george]

^^^ I would hazard a guess to application,it looks like an awesome anti-ambush vehicle against guerilla-style hit n run ambushes.

 

[kaiserbill]

I rather suspect a rustic conversion of the BTR 152.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know more about these Cuban/Soviet? vehicles encountered in 1978/88 with Ops Modular, Hooper and Packer? It seems to be copying the SADF mine resistant V-shaped hulls and being armoured against small caliber fire. There is still a wreck of such a vehicle next to the Cuito Cuanevale bridge.

A bit of research on the www confirms the suspicion that the Cubans in Angola learned from the SADF and converted a Soviet KraZ 255B truck into an armoured mine resistant version. http://www.militar.org.ua/foro/industria-militar-cubana-t5322-345.html

los cubanos en Angola convertidos camiones soviéticos KRAZ 255, la parte inferior de la camioneta es V para defender las minas. fotografía de 1989.

 

[kaiserbill]

A prototype mpv APC with ring for turret/weapons station.


More on this later.

 

[kaiserbill]

The prototype vehicle in the previous post above was called the TMTC1A, which stood for TruckMakers Troop Carrier 1A.


As can be seen from the attachments below, it was an APC development of the Mfezi armoured and mine-protected ambulance.
The article states that this is the 3rd development in the family range, the 2 others being the Mfezi Ambulance, and the Tapir Weapons Platform/Special transport, as seen earlier in this thread.


In fact, this prototype APC seems to derive more from the the Tapir, which obviously came after the Mfezi, as can be seen in the different upper hull shape, front windscreen, front cooling grill, etc.
More obvious hull differences are to do with the carrying of fighting troops.


Interestingly, they talk about a 6x6 version in development.


I know from Graugruns earlier attachment that the 21ton 6x6 Bison Weapons platform was also made by TruckMakers.
It appears that Truckmakers also, along with other companies (Armscor, Reumech Ermetek, and OMC), had a hand in the 22ton Okapi 6x6.


I'm assuming then, looking at the vehicles, that the 6x6 development resulted in the Bison Weapons Platform and Okapi Command&Control/Fire control/EW/Biological Detection vehicle?
In other words, I'm thinking that the Bison and Okapi 6x6 vehicles are related to each other, and stem from the 4x4 Mfezi, as does the 4x4 Tapir and this TMTC1A vehicle....


The attachments below are from African Armed Forces Journal September 1991, and weren't scanned in by myself, hence the poor quality! ;D

 

[curious george]

off f/book