South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Graugrun]

Thanks for that detail!

A question about your point number 2:

Is the TEL therefore an 8X8 version of the LZN, or a different vehicle?

Same drive-line, engine, wheels etc - I don't know any more than that I'm afraid.

 

[Graugrun]

I believe this was intended to be more of a Buffel replacement vehicle (armoured personnel carrier), than a Ratel replacement (that would rather have been the AC-100). A reasonable amount of info has already been posted - this is brochure adds some new detail and a few new pics.

The troops exercising with it are clearly older Citizen/Reserve force types.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The Fort Klapperkop exhibition mentioned earlier. Some interesting Mine Resistant prototypes on the left.

 

[bigvlada]

I believe this was intended to be more of a Buffel replacement vehicle (armoured personnel carrier), than a Ratel replacement (that would rather have been the AC-100). A reasonable amount of info has already been posted - this is brochure adds some new detail and a few new pics.

The troops exercising with it are clearly older Citizen/Reserve force types.

This design reminds me of the Serbian Lazar 1 MRAP. Does the brochure have a picture of the back of the vehicle? Were there doors and/or ramp present?

 

[sa_bushwar]

During the Bush war the SADF tried and tested a myriad of mine detection, mine lifting and mine clearing devices. Here is a mine plough fitted to the front of a Ratel IFV. As far as is known, this was not a very successful design. Pictures from www.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From this declassified Movements Signal for Ops Modular, a request is made of 1 x MAN 8x8. Some pictures of the MAN 8x8 is SADF service have emerged in the past. Wander what it was used for that the SAMIL/Kwevoel 100 could not do? It should have had better mobility in poor soil conditions.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1217
There was a report in the late eighties or early nineties that the SAMIL 100 was not entirely satisfactory. Its mobility and apparently durability was inadequate when heavily loaded under adverse conditions. For a 10 ton payload in a truck with the very long wheelbase of the big SAMIL, an 8 x 8 would definately have been prefereable.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Reply to post #1217
There was a report in the late eighties or early nineties that the SAMIL 100 was not entirely satisfactory. Its mobility and apparently durability was inadequate when heavily loaded under adverse conditions. For a 10 ton payload in a truck with the very long wheelbase of the big SAMIL, an 8 x 8 would definately have been prefereable.

One MAN 8x8 truck amongst many SAMIL/Kwevoel 100's would not have changed the fortunes of Ops Moduler, but as it was called up with a tank squadron it must have been for a special purpose, such as to assist with recovery of vehicles in the deep loose sand, or special delivery in difficult terrain? How the SADF obtained MAN 8x8's under sanctions and what for what purpose is yet to be disclosed.

 

[kaiserbill]

How the SADF obtained MAN 8x8's under sanctions and what for what purpose is yet to be disclosed.

I'm on holiday, and have managed to sneak a peek at Secretprojects briefly now...


It is worth bearing in mind that MAN trucks have been assembled in South Africa for over half a century.
The factory is in Pinetown, just outside Durban.


I don't think it would have been too hard to translate that into sub-assembly or component import for specific vehicles.
Also, South Africas heavy industry/engineering sector, particularly the mining sector, probably meant dual use components, sub-assemblies, or even entire vehicles were quite easily obtained, as long as discretion was exercised in their use.

 

[sa_bushwar]

How the SADF obtained MAN 8x8's under sanctions and what for what purpose is yet to be disclosed.

I'm on holiday, and have managed to sneak a peek at Secretprojects briefly now...


It is worth bearing in mind that MAN trucks have been assembled in South Africa for over half a century.
The factory is in Pinetown, just outside Durban.


I don't think it would have been too hard to translate that into sub-assembly or component import for specific vehicles.
Also, South Africas heavy industry/engineering sector, particularly the mining sector, probably meant dual use components, sub-assemblies, or even entire vehicles were quite easily obtained, as long as discretion was exercised in their use.

Possible, could be the same way the Wolf Turbo mine protected vehicle was built in SWA on a MAN drive train? Co-operation with Germany continued to an extent even during the sanction years. Examples are certain Ratel IFV components, Unimogs for the MRL's, and development the of the Rooikat 8x8 fire support vehicle.

 

[curious george]

*another pic of that Ferret conversion for the parabats.

 

[curious george]

*off f/b again.

 

[stimpy75]

sry for the little bit offtopic pic,found it on my old harddisk,it`s iraqi but i guess SA had some input

 

[Abraham Gubler]

While the 6x6 SPG is strongly associated with South Africa and the G6 the idea actually came from Canada and SRC (Gerald Bull) based on the forestry vehicles that worked down the road from their range on the Quebec-Vermont border. The vehicles for the Iraqi prototype 6x6 SPGs (155mm and 210mm) designed by SRC were as I recall built in Spain. I think we have some more information on this topic in the forum somewhere. SRC designed guns built by their various affiliates (Austrian and South African) were sold to both sides of the Iran-Iraq War.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

*off f/b again.

The G6-52 with the automatic loading system integrated into the turret.

 

[Herman]

The Rheimetall RWG-52 should be mentioned here. Probably developed mainly to allow Rheimetall/Denel to compete for the Indian SPG competition while avoiding the "blacklisting" status of Denel.

 

[Dinges]

The Rheimetall RWG-52 should be mentioned here. Probably developed mainly to allow Rheimetall/Denel to compete for the Indian SPG competition while avoiding the "blacklisting" status of Denel.

The blacklisting is no more. The Indian authorities could not prove the allegations after 8 years of investigation. It was cynical to begin with.

So Denel are free to trade in India again.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1228


The blacklisting is no more. The Indian authorities could not prove the allegations after 8 years of investigation. It was cynical to begin with.


OK. The blacklisting was as a result of the NTW-20 business, if I recall correctly?

 

[Dinges]

Reply to post #1228


The blacklisting is no more. The Indian authorities could not prove the allegations after 8 years of investigation. It was cynical to begin with.


OK. The blacklisting was as a result of the NTW-20 business, if I recall correctly?

Yes , the allegations were spurious at face value as the DRDO then started making the Vidhwansak AMR which is an obvious blatant copy of the NTW-20.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Reply to post #1228


The blacklisting is no more. The Indian authorities could not prove the allegations after 8 years of investigation. It was cynical to begin with.


OK. The blacklisting was as a result of the NTW-20 business, if I recall correctly?

Yes , the allegations were spurious at face value as the DRDO then started making the Vidhwansak AMR which is an obvious blatant copy of the NTW-20.

And, apparently, an inferior copy to boot. They seem to have gotten too ambitious before they had the basics nailed down, with the result that the Indian Army refused to accept it into service.

 

[compton_effect]

Lets just hope we've learnt a valuable lesson from this and cover all our bases next time.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Rooikat prototype undergoing what appears to be mobility evaluation alongside a T55 tanks and BTR60 8x8. The vehicle on the right appears to be a Noddy car (Eland 90)? A bit of speculation: The surroundings look like the artillery range near Potchefstroom and if so, Prof Hekkie Harmse from North West University's soil mechanics department was most likely involved, as he was with the mobility testing of the G5 and G6 development.

The Rooikat prototype has the word "Cheetah" written in white letters on the side. The turret is also one of the prototypes; a similar turret can still be seen on the 8x8 concept vehicle build from Ratel parts at the Bloemfontein armour museum.

 

[swan101]

Short article from Janes IDR 3-1998, on the Lion, which I don't think anything has been posted on yet in this thread.

Very good.

A couple of pics of the Lion was posted earlier in the thread, but there was a lack of info regarding the vehicle.
This explains quite a bit.

I wonder if there is any family ties to the Sterkhans 6X6 vehicle mentioned earlier, about which there is very little info?
Also manufactured by WFM, it seems to have been a Wolf 6X6 derivitive.

I would imagin that the Sterk Hans would allso use the MAN engine and drive train as used on the Wolf.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Rooikat prototype undergoing what appears to be mobility evaluation alongside a T55 tanks and BTR60 8x8. The vehicle on the right appears to be a Noddy car (Eland 90)? A bit of speculation: The surroundings look like the artillery range near Potchefstroom and if so, Prof Hekkie Harmse from North West University's soil mechanics department was most likely involved, as he was with the mobility testing of the G5 and G6 development.

The Rooikat prototype has the word "Cheetah" written in white letters on the side. The turret is also one of the prototypes; a similar turret can still be seen on the 8x8 concept vehicle build from Ratel parts at the Bloemfontein armour museum.

A close-up of the same early Rooikat prototype undergoing trials, also showing the prototype turret and armament. The main gun shown here is not the production 76mm. The prototype is still void of any detail fixtures and fittings found on the production model.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 1235


The gun appears to be the same as those used on the Saracen-based, Ratel-based and Eland-based Rooikat concept vehicles, i.e. the 77mm HV gun taken from the Comet tank.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Reply to post # 1235


The gun appears to be the same as those used on the Saracen-based, Ratel-based and Eland-based Rooikat concept vehicles, i.e. the 77mm HV gun taken from the Comet tank.

Indeed

 

[sa_bushwar]

I'm looking for pictures and information about the prototype Plofadders that were used in Ops Modular, Hooper and Packer in 1988/89. It was a vitally important new weapon to breach the extensive mine fields behind which the FAPLA forces took in depth defensive positions. The prototype plofadders however often failed to deploy or detonate, delaying the SADF advance. Was it the man-pack version, or the version mounted and launched from a Casspir? The extract from the signal dated 15-10-87 below suggests it was the Casspir mounted versions.

English translation:
Your signal xxxx refers - The Plofadder is air transportable. This HQ does not support the air transport of the vehicle. The Plofadders (two prototypes) will be repaired and send by road to 24 Field Sqn if this request is approved by the Branch HQ Rundu after approval of the Planning (- for Ops Modular).

 

[sa_bushwar]

I'm looking for pictures and information about the prototype Plofadders that were used in Ops Modular, Hooper and Packer in 1988/89. It was a vitally important new weapon to breach the extensive mine fields behind which the FAPLA forces took in depth defensive positions. The prototype plofadders however often failed to deploy or detonate, delaying the SADF advance. Was it the man-pack version, or the version mounted and launched from a Casspir? The extract from the signal dated 15-10-87 below suggests it was the Casspir mounted versions.

English translation:
Your signal xxxx refers - The Plofadder is air transportable. This HQ does not support the air transport of the vehicle. The Plofadders (two prototypes) will be repaired and send by road to 24 Field Sqn if this request is approved by the Branch HQ Rundu after approval of the Planning (- for Ops Modular).

Just to explain, the plofadder is a rocket propelled rope charge to breach a way through a mine field. (Named after the Puff Adder, an African snake)

 

[Rickshaw]

So, somewhat similar to a Giant Viper then?

 

[sa_bushwar]

So, somewhat similar to a Giant Viper then?

Correct.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book again.

 

[kaiserbill]

Just back from a 3 week trip.

Excellent pics, SA Bushwar and Curious George.

That is that 8X8 prototype vehicle that we think was entered into the original Ratel project by the SA Army Technical Services as the Springkaan, now to be found at the Armour Museum in poor condition.

Also, nice pic of that Rooikat development Cheetah vehicle earlier.
I must have another look, and compare it to the older black and white pics and see how it fits in.
EDIT: Definitely the same vehicle as the earlier one from the black and white pics, with Cheetah written on the side.
The confusion for me came in when some of the earlier B&W pics had different, larger tyres fitted, changing the perspective of size of the vehicle, for me at least. It also had "Fat Cat" written on the side, obviously in light of the "fatter" tyres perhaps. The 3rd pic below shows it with tyres more akin to the usual production Rooikat ones.

I think this is the vehicle developed from the original entrants (Ratel, Eland, and Saracen components) that then morphed further into the Class 2b New Generation Armoured Car (last pic), that then in turn was developed into the production Rooikat.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book again.

 

[kaiserbill]

Nice!

So, it seems at least 2 of these large 8X8 "Skerpioen" vehicles were built, as you alluded to earlier in the thread.

This looks like an offroad support/maintenance vehicle (for Rooikat?) whilst the first one seemed to be a load carrier/support.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1242


Yes, it is the supposed Sprinkaan. Interesting picture because it was not taken where the vehicle is residing currently, in Bloemfontein. The paintwork is also different. Is this the same vehicle or were there possibly two of the things built?

 

[kaiserbill]

Actually, looking at the 2 new pics of the large 8X8 vehicle Curious George has posted, the "Skerpioen", they look like 2 seperate vehicles, particularly the rear of the vehicle. Add the original pic from a while back, and perhaps we have 3 different vehicles?

Intriguing vehicle, in any event.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From www: This Ratel turret looks unusual, or is just the angle of the photo?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1248.
Isn't that the turret from the Eland 60?

 

[curious george]

Reply to post #1248.
Isn't that the turret from the Eland 60?

I concur.

 

[Dinges]

The Ratel 60 was a straight transplant of the Eland 60 turret.