South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

Interesting.

I initially passed that off simply as a Ratel 81mm Mortar, but having looked at it again, it has a larger front superstructure.

I think it is modified from the 81mm mortar carrier though.

 

[kaiserbill]

For completeness, here is another pic of the Olifant Optimal.

I post it here because the one in the Armour Museum is missing its mantlet, which can be seen here.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Eland 8x8, testbed for Rooikat, now displayed at Armour Museum in Bloem, minus its turret.

 

[kaiserbill]

Great pic SA Bushwar!

 

[sa_bushwar]

The Ratel 81 has a different commander's copula.

Interesting.

I initially passed that off simply as a Ratel 81mm Mortar, but having looked at it again, it has a larger front superstructure.

I think it is modified from the 81mm mortar carrier though.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Let's put pressure on Government to retun the the musem pieces taken from the SAMH museum in JHB about 10 years ago. These included an Eland 60, Eland 90, Buffel, and the first production Ratel 20, turret plate below.

 

[Herman]

Reply to #1014.
The turrets on the 3 trial vehicles, Eland-based, Ratel-based and Saracen-based were identical and all armed with the 77mm HV gun from the Comert tank. I wonder if they actually built 3 turrets? Probably only one or two and switched them between the vehicles for testing. For mobility testing, the turrets were not required. The turret was only needed to see how the various chassis coped with the recoil stress of the gun being fired.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The turret is currently on the Ratel 8x8 lookalike contender.

Reply to #1014.
The turrets on the 3 trial vehicles, Eland-based, Ratel-based and Saracen-based were identical and all armed with the 77mm HV gun from the Comert tank. I wonder if they actually built 3 turrets? Probably only one or two and switched them between the vehicles for testing. For mobility testing, the turrets were not required. The turret was only needed to see how the various chassis coped with the recoil stress of the gun being fired.

 

[curious george]

Interesting.

I initially passed that off simply as a Ratel 81mm Mortar, but having looked at it again, it has a larger front superstructure.

I think it is modified from the 81mm mortar carrier though.

I always associated this vehicle with EW or SIGINT.

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to #1014.
The turrets on the 3 trial vehicles, Eland-based, Ratel-based and Saracen-based were identical and all armed with the 77mm HV gun from the Comert tank. I wonder if they actually built 3 turrets? Probably only one or two and switched them between the vehicles for testing. For mobility testing, the turrets were not required. The turret was only needed to see how the various chassis coped with the recoil stress of the gun being fired.

Definitely more than 1 turret, as SA Bushwar shows that the Ratel based 8x8 still has it's turret too.

I suspect all the vehicles had turrets, but perhaps they destroyed one in tests, just like they did to the turret from the TH400 type vehicle?

 

[kaiserbill]

Interesting.

I initially passed that off simply as a Ratel 81mm Mortar, but having looked at it again, it has a larger front superstructure.

I think it is modified from the 81mm mortar carrier though.

I always associated this vehicle with EW or SIGINT.

Perhaps.

The Ratel with the antenna sticking up in Reply985 Page 66 from AWM53, which was posted earlier by yourself I think too, seems to be based on the Ratel 81 Mortar vehicle.

Even this though has changes, such as only one vision block/firing port in the hull side, which is different than every single other Ratel 6x6 vehicle out there.

It would be interesting to know what that Ratels exact role was, strongly assuming it was EW.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Checked again, there are at least 2 turrets, the other being on the Saracen 8x8.

The turret is currently on the Ratel 8x8 lookalike contender.

Reply to #1014.
The turrets on the 3 trial vehicles, Eland-based, Ratel-based and Saracen-based were identical and all armed with the 77mm HV gun from the Comert tank. I wonder if they actually built 3 turrets? Probably only one or two and switched them between the vehicles for testing. For mobility testing, the turrets were not required. The turret was only needed to see how the various chassis coped with the recoil stress of the gun being fired.

 

[Herman]

Checked again, there are at least 2 turrets, the other being on the Saracen 8x8.

True. Now that you mention it, the last time I looked, the one on the Saracen-based car still has its muzzle brake fitted while the one on the Ratel-based vehicle has had the muzzle brake removed.

 

[kaiserbill]

It would be really interesting to get some more technical detail on those vehicles, such as engines, specifications, and performance results.

The 8x8 with Ratel components looks to be a large vehicle, and is not simply an 8x8 armoured car like the other two, based on Eland and Saracen components. You can see it has hatches for infantry on top of the rear hull, and there is a door/hatch serving that compartment, although it is very small.

The plaque says it is a 19 ton vehicle, but this surely is without the turret, as even a vanilla 6x6 Ratel weighs between 18 and 20 tons.

I was also having another look at Reply 830, where Herman posted some interesting pics of the Springkaan(?) running gear.
It would be nice to have some additional info on it's history, as Herman said.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post number 1025:
The Ratel-based test bed is a very large vehicle with a wheelbase of 5.6 meters and an overall length of about 8 meters (the wheelbase of the Rooikat is about 5 meters). I expect that it was powered by the same turbocharged Bussing engine as the standard Ratel although I seem to recall having read somewhere that it was powered by an intercooled version of the engine, developing 320hp. The transmission is the same unit as that used in the Ratel. I agree that the weight of the vehicle seems low at 19 tons. 8x8 versions of MAN trucks using the same axles are rated up to 28.000kg, as is the Ratel log, afaik. I expect a combat ready version of a Rooikat based on this vehicle would have pulled the scales at around 24 tons.
The Eland- and the Saracen-based 8x8 prototypes were both powered by green-coloured, Detroit Diesel (General Motors) 6V53 engines two-stroke diesels, if I remeber correctly. I could open the engine compartments when I was there. Don't know about the transmissions.

 

[Herman]

By the way, the presumably Sprinkaan is also powered by a Detroit Diesel engine, either a 8V53 or a 8V71 unit.

 

[sa_bushwar]

RG 60 - did this vehicle ever go into production?

 

[kaiserbill]

I've not seen it.

Plenty of law enforcement agencies around the world have gone for the closely related RG12.
I wasn't aware they touted a military variant.

 

[kaiserbill]

Found this pic, which says it is Algerian Elands captured by the Polisario.

Of interest is what appears to be an Eland 20.

I was under the impression that only a small handful were modified for the Irish Army on their AML 60's, after the local prototype in South Africa fitted with the Ratel 20 turret.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1030:
I was under the impression that only a small handful were modified for the Irish Army on their AML 60's, after the local prototype in South Africa fitted with the Ratel 20 turret.
I also thought that the Irish cars were the only production Eland 20's. Those were not true Elands however, as you mention, but Irish Defence Force Panhards modified with S.A. turrets and fitted with Peugeot diesel engines, afaik. I wonder how many Elands were supplied to Algeria? I expect the Algerians were not intersted in the Eland 60 and the cars were fitted with the turrets from surplus Ratels.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I have seen these modified 25pdrs at the SAAF Museum Swartkops and Armour Museum in Bloem. Was it an upgrade, or testbed for the development of the G5 gun carriage? See early G5 prototype below.

 

[Hot Breath]

A local South African attempt to upgrade the 25 Pdr? I know the SADF was looking for an "intermediate" calibre which was light enough to be towed and used by Special Forces in their various bushwars. One of the reasons why they kept on with 60mm mortars while everyone else had largely abandoned that calibre.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I have seen these modified 25pdrs at the SAAF Museum Swartkops and Armour Museum in Bloem. Was it an upgrade, or testbed for the development of the G5 gun carriage? See early G5 prototype below.

Very interesting photos Bushwar. I doubt it has anything to do with Project Boas as the difference between the recoil energy to be absorbed by a 25 pounder and a 155mm ERFB is huge. Also the SADF had US M2 and Israeli M68 155mm pieces to work with for trials. Plus all the information from SRC and the GC-45.

I know the SADF was looking for an "intermediate" calibre which was light enough to be towed and used by Special Forces in their various bushwars. One of the reasons why they kept on with 60mm mortars while everyone else had largely abandoned that calibre.

The 25 Pounder is never going to be in the ball park of a lightweight weapon. Even the Australian cut down mountain gun version of WWII (25 Pounder Short) weighed in at 1.3 tonnes. And it was much lighter than this split trails 25 Pounder could be. Also the SADF had acquired the 120mm mortar from Israel as its airborne artillery weapon and were very happy with them in this role.

A local South African attempt to upgrade the 25 Pdr?

This is the answer. The 25 Pounder ordnance can last a very long time staying away from the super charge missions but the carriage does not. Replacing the old worn out and cracking carriages is something the SADF would need to do to enable its large fleet of 25 Pounders to shoot through another major war. Taking the time to also fit a lighter and easier to use split trail carriage and what looks like a new gun shield seems like a good idea. That’s what it looks like.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1034
I assume that the new carriage for the 25 pounders was developed at a time when there was still interest in using the guns operationally, i.e. the late seventies. I was under the impression that operational use of the 25 pounders ceased in the late seventies or possibly 1980 or 1981.
It is interesting to note that SA posessed about 250 Sexton SPG 25 pounders by the mid-seventies. Almost all were inoperational due to lack of spares, wear and tear, etc. and the large tracked vehicles were in any case not suitable for the bushwar. I have often wondered if it would not have been possible to take the modified 25 pounder mountings from the Sextons and mount them on some kind of Ratel variant, creating a useful, wheeled SPG.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I have often wondered if it would not have been possible to take the modified 25 pounder mountings from the Sextons and mount them on some kind of Ratel variant, creating a useful, wheeled SPG.

Actually you've probably just discovered the source of these 25 Pounders. The guns on the Sexton are basically the same as the guns on the field mount but lack trials, wheels, gun shield, etc. This image could be of such a gun with a new build field mount in order to find a use for the Sexton guns. These guns would probably be in better condition than the field guns because they would have had less use being mounted on expensive to run tank chassis SPGs.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1036.
Afaik, the main difference between the field mount and the Sexton mount is that the recoil distance was reduced from approximately 1 meter maximum to 50cm maximum. This necessitated stronger trunnions to absorb the increased recoil impulse. The reduced recoil distance was necessary otherwise the gun would have hit the floor of the fighting compartment on full elevation.

 

[kaiserbill]

Did SA ever look at improved long range ammunition for the 25pdr?

Apart from the obvious G5 and G6, Romer Heitman mentions that the G-2 (the 140mm or 5,5inch) had a base bleed long range projectile developed for it, pushing the range from 16500m out to 21000m.

 

[Herman]

Apart from the obvious G5 and G6, Romer Heitman mentions that the G-2 (the 140mm or 5,5inch) had a base bleed long range projectile developed for it, pushing the range from 16500m out to 21000m.
I read that as well. These shells were developed on the basis of the G5/6 ammunition and only saw the light when the big guns were already in service. I doubt if the 140mm examples were ever produced in quantity or used operationally.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 1034
Also the SADF had acquired the 120mm mortar from Israel as its airborne artillery weapon and were very happy with them in this role.
The 25 pounder guns weighs >1600kg. It fires a 11.5kg shell to 12250 metres. The French MO-120 RT-61 120mm rifled mortar, which is probably the one other 120mm mortars are judged by, weighs around 580kg and shoots a rocket-assisted, 15kg shell to 13000 metres. The Israeli Soltam M-65 120mm mortar which is also in use in S.A., weighs around 280kg and can fire a 15kg shell to >10000 metres. It is obvious why field guns of less than 105mm calibre and even the 105mm pieces have largely become obsolescent with the increasing popularity of 120mm mortars.
I read that the S.A. army initially wanted the RT-61 mortar but could not come to an acceptable understanding with the French and S.A. then decided to buy the Israeli mortar.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Apart from the obvious G5 and G6, Romer Heitman mentions that the G-2 (the 140mm or 5,5inch) had a base bleed long range projectile developed for it, pushing the range from 16500m out to 21000m.
I read that as well. These shells were developed on the basis of the G5/6 ammunition and only saw the light when the big guns were already in service. I doubt if the 140mm examples were ever produced in quantity or used operationally.

The G2 Base-bleed was used operationally in Ops Packer. From the diary of S/Sers Piet Muller:
"5-6/3/88 word daar opleiding gegee. Skiet eerste maal in die geskiedenis sleurdemp projektiele op die 140mm (55) geskut binne in Angola".

 

[sa_bushwar]

I have often wondered if it would not have been possible to take the modified 25 pounder mountings from the Sextons and mount them on some kind of Ratel variant, creating a useful, wheeled SPG.

Actually you've probably just discovered the source of these 25 Pounders. The guns on the Sexton are basically the same as the guns on the field mount but lack trials, wheels, gun shield, etc. This image could be of such a gun with a new build field mount in order to find a use for the Sexton guns. These guns would probably be in better condition than the field guns because they would have had less use being mounted on expensive to run tank chassis SPGs.

Below are Sextons I encountered at the School of Artillery in Potchefstroom in 1978. Generally in bad shape, these were sometimes encountered on the Genl de la Rey artillery range mostly for driver training. Never saw them in operational maneuvers. Was quite a site when the 9cyl radial Harvard? engine was started - in had to be done with fire extinguishers in presence as it was prone to catching fire. Doubt it though if the modified G1's posted earlier originated from the Sextons.

 

[kaiserbill]

What happened to all those Sextons?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

What happened to all those Sextons?

Burried on consecrated ground I hope. Ho, ho, Christian office holder joke (rare these days).

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1041:
"5-6/3/88 word daar opleiding gegee. Skiet eerste maal in die geskiedenis sleurdemp projektiele op die 140mm (55) geskut binne in Angola".

Interesting. Thanks, Bushwar.

"Sleurdemp". Beautiful Afrikaans term for "base bleed". Directly translated it means something like: drag limited or drag repressed.

 

[CostasTT]

Reply to posts #1030-1031:
Algeria is actually one of the supporters of the Polisario Front. The captured vehicles are Moroccan.
The link below clearly mentions "Armor Morocco bought from the Pretoria racist regime":
http://diasporasaharaui.blogspot.gr/2013/12/photo-du-blinde-que-le-maroc-achetait.html


Also, the ex-Sexton 25-pdrs appear to be mounted on 17-pdr carriages with shortened (?) trails.

 

[Herman]

In his book first in, last out, Clive Wilsworth states that South Africa had the following artillery pieces available in 1973.
25 pounder field guns: 183.
140mm Medium guns: 52.
Sexton 25 pounder SPG: 140. Of these, only 54 were runners due to a lack of spares.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Armoured schoolbus?

 

[kaiserbill]

These have cropped up in the past, and they were clearly used to transport schoolchildren in the border areas from one or two of the pictures.
However, I doubt this what was they were actually designed for, given that they have firing ports at each seat, and roof hatches. I suspect they were designed as troop carriers, but that is a guess from me.
Also seem to have been based on both the SAMIL 50 and SAMIL 100.

When looking at the large, long SAMIL 100 version, I wonder if it wasn't taken from that one-off SAMIL 100 Kwevoel Horse Transporter, as that prototype had the V-shaped protection running the entire length too, which no other Kwevoel variant had, if I recall correctly.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Bumped into these Denel? guys test fitting a strange antenna to the SAAF Museum Puma a few years back - any idea what this could be?

 

[kaiserbill]

I have seen something similiar on an Oryx, described as EW (Electronic Warfare). Same antenna on the one Oryx, and also a different "covered" antenna on another.
Maybe this is more at home in the SA aerospace projects thread?