South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[panzerskool]

Swart gevaar what do you use the truck for? Is it road worthy?


Wonder where the other one ended up

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #607
Wonder where the other one ended up?

How many were built? Swart Gevaar has one and one is a fire engine. Was there a third one?

 

[Swart Gevaar]

Hi guys. Thanks for welcoming me.

To answer a few questions, the vehicle has a 19.3 (approximately) lt V12 twin turbo Deutz air cooled engine. The same as used in the G6. As far as we know, only 2 were built. I have heard a rumour that the other is in Bloemfontein in a museum, but I do not know if this is true or not.

At present, the vehicle is not road worthy as our locals stole most of the wiring out of the vehicle. We are in the process of getting estimates as to what it would cost to fix up. Hopefully, we can then sell it or put it to good use somewhere in Africa.

Kaiserbill, I will most definitely go and have a look at those posts. I spoke to someone at LIW who also told me that the vehicle was earmarked for a fire engine. This obviously didn't happen with this vehicle. All I can say is that this vehicle is indeed a beast. Can't wait to see it running in the end!

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #609:
....the vehicle has a 19.3 (approximately) lt V12 twin turbo Deutz air cooled engine.

Yup, that's it: Deutz BF12L413FC, 19.1 litres, turbocharged, intercooled. 520hp at 2500 rpm.

 

[Swart Gevaar]

For those of you who knew the Mamba, here is the latest version. Designed and built by us. Also already used in deployment. There are two versions, one being an air cooled and the other liquid cooled. It is known as the Mamba MK5

 

[kaiserbill]

Swart Gevaar, do you have any other one-offs, prototypes, or unusual/concept vehicles kicking around under your auspices?

 

[Swart Gevaar]

Swart Gevaar, do you have any other one-offs, prototypes, or unusual/concept vehicles kicking around under your auspices?

No kaiserbill, not at this stage.

 

[Asterix]

Swart Gevaar, do you have any other one-offs, prototypes, or unusual/concept vehicles kicking around under your auspices?

No kaiserbill, not at this stage.

Swart gevaar, do you still have the Saracen in your yard?

 

[Swart Gevaar]

We don't have a Saracen. You might be thinking of somebody else.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #611
Interesting that you mention air-cooled. As far as I know, there are currently no air-cooled engines in production any more that conform to the latest emmission requirements, except the Tatra V8 unit. The Deutz engines are not clean enough and they are significantly less efficient than modern liquid-cooled diesel engines. The best Deutz engines produce about 30 hp/liter whereas modern water-cooled commercial truck engines easily produce in excess of 50 hp/liter.

 

[Swart Gevaar]

Germany still produce air cooled engines, especially for pump or generator applications. BF6L914 is the one. There are various configurations on this engine though.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #617.
Yes, the Deutz company. They also built the engine in your MLZN. They do indeed still produce air-cooled engines for industrial applications. These engines do not however conform to the latest environmental requirements for automotive use and, more importantly, they are less powerful and more thirsty than modern, electronically controlled water-cooled engines with common rail injection and variable geometry turbocharging. The most powerful version of the Deutz 914 series of engines, you mentioned, is the six cylinder BF6L914C. This engine has a cylinder capacity of 6.5 liters and it produced just over 200 hp at 2500 rpm. The Cummins 5.9 liter liquid-cooled engine, with 24 valves, common rail injection and variable geometry turbocharging developed a mximum of 325 hp at 2900 rpm. This engine was replecd in 2007 by a 6.7 liter unit, only slightly larger than the Deutz BF6L914C but it develops 385hp.

I am a great fan of the Deutz air-cooled engines. They are simple and very, very reliable. Modern liquid-cooled units however provide more power per installed volume, are more economical and are cleaner.

 

[curious george]

*This was posted on f/book this afternoon by a guy who says that he took the pic at 1 SAI (SA infantry battalion) in Bloemfontein.

Could this be the elusive Ratel "Bussing" prototype?

 

[kaiserbill]

Excellent, Curious George!

The location based on descriptions earlier in the thread, and the look of the vehicle certainly seems to tally that this is indeed the Springfield Bussing prototype, or forefather of the Ratel.

 

[Skyscout]

Is this the MLZN???

https://picasaweb.google.com/grensoorlog/MoerseLorrieZonderNaamMLZN

Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum. Interesting reading about all the projects that ran in the 70's - 90's in SA.
Here's a pic of LZN in semi-military colours.

They were built as logistic vehicles for the G6 but I think it was too expensive and the war in Angola was history so no need for SA applications anymore.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #619:
This could very possibly be a prototype. It would be interesting to know what engine sits in this thing. The earliest prototype was fitted with a petrol engine. This veicle was supposedly later used to cart VIPs around the battlefield during maneuvres.

 

[Herman]

It is most definitely a prototype for the Ratel. The only question is if it is the first one built.

 

[kaiserbill]

I would lean toward the Springfield Bussing Buffel that was selected in the initial trials, and which was then thoroughly redeveloped into the Ratel.

My reasoning is that although you can see the first seeds of the Ratel in the vehicle pictured, it is still quite considerably different from the Ratel in many, many ways, not least almost the entire hull shape/design, sides and front.
Also, the article posted earlier from VEG magazine about the Hoefyster/Ratel replacement mentions that the Springfield Bussing Buffel vehicle is to the right in front of the gates of 1 South African Infantry in Bloemfontein.

Further, I posted on page 39 in reply 574 what looks like a older Ratel in the SA Armour Museum grounds, which is much developed from this vehicle above, but with differences still to most other Ratels I've seen.

I'm cautiously optimistic that this is the Springfield Bussing Buffel, although I could obviously be wrong

 

[curious george]

From f/book:

Recording of ZT3 prototypes in action during their 1st actual combat experience with 32Bn during the opening clashes of Ops Hooper in '87,some problems are encountered,etc as we have read about in various printed accounts,but to hear it go down is awesome to "witness".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JnHOS8SIPE

 

[Skyscout]

Is this the MLZN???

https://picasaweb.google.com/grensoorlog/MoerseLorrieZonderNaamMLZN

Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum. Interesting reading about all the projects that ran in the 70's - 90's in SA.
Here's a pic of LZN in semi-military colours.

They were built as logistic vehicles for the G6 but I think it was to expensive and the war in Angola was history so no need for SA applications anymore.

Found an old brochure of LZN.

Those were the days...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Found an old brochure of LZN.

Those were the days...

Skyscout thanks so much for this. To think a few years ago at the start of this thread all that was publically available about the LZN was a name and a tiny image.

 

[kaiserbill]

Found an old brochure of LZN.

Those were the days...

Skyscout thanks so much for this. To think a few years ago at the start of this thread all that was publically available about the LZN was a name and a tiny image.

I echo this completely.

The amount of info learned on this thread on what largely remains a closed book has been excellent.
Casting a spotlight on vehicles that still remain in the shadows...

Welcome aboard, Skyscout.

 

[kaiserbill]

From f/book:

Recording of ZT3 prototypes in action during their 1st actual combat experience with 32Bn during the opening clashes of Ops Hooper in '87,some problems are encountered,etc as we have read about in various printed accounts,but to hear it go down is awesome to "witness".

That is excellent!
Those ZT-3 Ratels and the missiles were prototypes/early development models, and it's amazing to hear their frustration and stress as some missiles go ballistic, and jubilation as they hit others. Near the end, it sounds like the one turret of the one tank they hit obviously flew high in the air, which correlates with the description and photos I've seen.

I'd read about this deployment, so it was fascinating to hear it for real.

EDIT: Correction, two of the tanks that day had their turrets blown clear off. Just had a look at the pics I have. One turret was blown up in the air, and landed back onto the tank engine decking, the other tanks turret was blown clean and high into the air (which is probably the one that made the impression in the audio tape) and landed alongside near the tank.

 

[curious george]

From f/book:

Recording of ZT3 prototypes in action during their 1st actual combat experience with 32Bn during the opening clashes of Ops Hooper in '87,some problems are encountered,etc as we have read about in various printed accounts,but to hear it go down is awesome to "witness".

That is excellent!
Those ZT-3 Ratels and the missiles were prototypes/early development models, and it's amazing to hear their frustration and stress as some missiles go ballistic, and jubilation as they hit others. Near the end, it sounds like the one turret of the one tank they hit obviously flew high in the air, which correlates with the description and photos I've seen.

I'd read about this deployment, so it was fascinating to hear it for real.

EDIT: Correction, two of the tanks that day had their turrets blown clear off. Just had a look at the pics I have. One turret was blown up in the air, and landed back onto the tank engine decking, the other tanks turret was blown clean and high into the air (which is probably the one that made the impression in the audio tape) and landed alongside near the tank.

For those who dont know what we are talking about:

 

[miker]

That was indeed a good day, I was on the scene the next day, & could see the wrecked FAPLA tanks smoking away out in the chana, had a word with the Anti-Tank Sqn cmdr to, he said the launches were all taken at very long range, nearly 5 klicks, I think, & the missles were at that range nose up, tail down, & loosing momentum fast. In spite of that the warheads still did the damage & the SADF learned what the actual range of the ZT3 was, ;D

Ah, those were the days.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Its a great piece of audio. But the recorded engagements sound like very short range. 4-5km range with an ATGM would mean at least 10 seconds time of flight. The troopies fighting the ZT3 seem to be shouting big time right after the launch. They could just be hyped they had a straight flying missile but it sounds like a 1-2 second time of flight. You would hope they were in possession of the battlefield after the action because there would be 4-5 ZT3 missile misfires sitting on the dirt and you wouldn't to leave them behind for enemy TECHINT.

 

[miker]

Re: ZT 3 MISSILES ON THE LOMBA


Abe, frankly I don't recall anybody telling me about the misfires, everybody was too busy telling me about the hits!

But I do recall this; when the Anti-Tank boys were training a Buffalo they had had a couple of misfires with the ZT3, at least two. The complete Sqn then chicken paraded the area where the missles impacted & picked up every single piece of wire, metal, what-have-you they could find. Their 2IC showed me the junk they had collected, for security & technical reasons every bit was to be returned to Pretoria. I think the warheads had exploded.

Bearing in mind the missles didn't crash land, they crashed & blew themselves into tiny bits of junk & the fact FAPLA weren't ever seen in the chana except around one waterhole close to their Northern side. I don't think there was any attemp to clean up after the failed ZT 3s. FAPLA would have had to do night patrols, over the river [big enough to be an obstacle] to find some poorly defined spots & gather up useful junk. All this overseen by SADF forces on the South side with NVE. Not FAPLA, no way!

Cheers

MikeR

 

[kaiserbill]

On the audio and distance, for what it's worth, the audio has been cut or edited at certain times, although I don't think it's been cut between the firing sequence and the crew reaction.
On the distance, I've seen reference on 61 Mech's page that 3 tanks were destroyed at "over 2000m" in 10 minutes.

And a video of a ZT-3 launch. Not sure of the distance here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo6_emb8abM

 

[kaiserbill]

On the subject of the Ratel.

I was having another look at the 8x8 Ratel Logistics, or Ratel Log. Then had a look at the thread on the Rooikat armoured vehicle development, in particular the 3 initial early vehicles at the start of the Rooikat project, back in the late 1970's.
The vehicle from 1979, the one listed as having "Ratel Features" is pictured below, after the Ratel Log picture.
These two vehicles appear to be based on the same running gear/platform.
I assume that after the vehicle with the "Ratel Features" lost out in the New Generation Armoured Car project, which led to the Rooikat, that the designers used the same basic 8x8 design on the Ratel Logistic.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #635.
Same axles, different engine and gearbox, as far as I know. The distance between the second and third axle of the log-vehicle is probably somewhat greater than that of the armoured car. I believe the armoured car has a wheelbase of 1.4 x 2.8 x 1.4 while the log vehicle has a wheelbase of 1.4 x 3.1 x 1.4. Otherwise the suspension is the same live axle on coils with longitudinal links and Panhard rods setup in both vehicles.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks for those figures, Herman.

It was speculation on my part.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Does anyone know what happened with the Mini Valkiri 5?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Another one...

Anyone knows what this vehicle was kitted out for? - see interior picture.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Looks like an elevating, hydraulic mast with a rotating assembly on top. Prime for a radar of some sort.

 

[kaiserbill]

That's what has been described as the Mechem Krokodil.
Thanks for the internal pic, SA Bushwar.

It can be seen in Post 5 on Page 1. It is an intrigueing vehicle which has been described in many different ways.
So far on the interweb, I've seen it described either as a support vehicle, a support vehicle for artillery, an observation vehicle, a low slung air-transportable IFV, and finally as a very heavy IFV with a minimum weight of 26 tons and over.
It looks like it has a mid, or side mounted engine.

Abes analysis makes sense.
It still remains an intrigueing vehicle.

 

[JFC Fuller]

Does anyone know what happened with the Mini Valkiri 5?

I know it was displayed in 1988, after that I just assumed that it was just never procured.

I know South Africa had very effective long range howitzers but I was always surprised that it never pursued anything larger or longer ranged than the 127mm Valkiri / Bateleur MLRS series.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I have seen this vehicle at your place some time back, do you know what its military role was?

Swart Gevaar, do you have any other one-offs, prototypes, or unusual/concept vehicles kicking around under your auspices?

No kaiserbill, not at this stage.

 

[kaiserbill]

Does anyone know what happened with the Mini Valkiri 5?

As mentioned by JFC Fuller, I've not heard of it since it was unveiled about 20 years ago.
It was a lightened, shortened version of the Valkiri, firing shortened missiles. It's compromises were to ensure its suitability for paratroopers and special forces. I guess for the parabats, it would be easily towed by the Ferret prime mover or even the Jakkals light jeep.
I guess it fell by the wayside with the reduction in tensions and attendant military budget cuts?

Below is the same pic in colour, with brief description, and without the ink stamp.

 

[kaiserbill]

I have seen this vehicle at your place some time back, do you know what its military role was?

Demining, but the vehicle itself is interesting.

I had to go comprehensively through my image library.
It is not a Casspir, although it does have features of the rare Casspir Bastion, with identical oversized front side windows.
Not a Casspir, Wolf, Mfezi...etc..etc.

I'm leaning toward a variant or modification of the Rinkhals Armoured Ambulance with Casspir Bastion features, and a cutback rear bed.

 

[kaiserbill]

Abraham Gubler, in Reply 29 Page 2, mentioned the 2 different 8x8 Marmon Herrington prototypes from the Second World War period.
These came around a little late in the day, and thus the order was cancelled by the British Government with only the 2 prototypes constructed.

These are both still in existence, with the 2 pounder example in England after it was sent for testing, and the 6 pounder example in South Africa.