South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Apophenia]

There was talk of updated R4/R5s (with rail mounts added, etc.). Are there separate designations for the updates? Or any other Rx designations after R8?

 

[kaiserbill]

There was talk of updated R4/R5s (with rail mounts added, etc.). Are there separate designations for the updates? Or any other Rx designations after R8?

Not sure.

There was that Truvelo Raptor that was an R4 derivitive which had rails.
I've seen it mentioned that the lower receiver was stamped as opposed to the machined or milled solid receiver that the R4 has.
Never handled one, so I cannot confirm that.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?92412-South-African-Raptor-Assault-Rifle

Then there was also the bullpup development of th R4, the Vector CR-21.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/safr/vektor-cr-21-e.html

I think the problem is that they made more than enough R4's and derivitives, approaching 500 000.
That would have been fine for the SADF and it's reserves, but is too much for the reduced numbers of the SANDF.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #566:
There was a DMR (designated marksman rifle) variant of the R4 developed in SA. It was shown just before the soccer world cup, if I remember correctly. It is probably that thing. As a general comment, a DMR in 5.56 x 45 is odd'ish. Modern DMR's are all 7.62 x 51. A FAL-based DMR would have been more convincing although the FN FAL is not known for great inherent accuracy, but neither is the AK-based Galil.

 

[Herman]

Note to #556
No, it is not the DMR (see URL). It is probably the heavy-barrelled R4 as you suggest (I didn't know such a thing existed).

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7323:r4-dmr-unveilled-&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

 

[Apophenia]

... I think the problem is that they made more than enough R4's and derivitives ...

On the R4/R5s with rail mounts, I should have been more specific. It was my understanding that this upgrade programme was being applied to existing service weapons ... more DLIR or IRAN than new weapon production.

Herman: There's a number of 5.56mm DMRs in service out there -- the US Army SDM-Rs, USMC SAM-Rs and SPRs, Canadian Forces C7CT, UK L86A2 LSW, ADF F88S, Austrian AUG HBAR-T, etc. Not that the numbers issued makes them ideal DMRs

 

[Herman]

Reply to #571:
You're obviously right. In Aghanistan however, there has been a pronounced shift back to 7.62 x 51 for DMR's. There has been a general tendency to issue more 7,62 x 51 rifles to the Western troops active there because of the extended ranges at which engagements take place and the increasing preception that the 5.56 x 45 is, at best, a 300 meter cartridge, and continuing doubts about its lethality. This is especially true for the short-barreled M4 carbines used by ther US Army.

 

[curious george]

Cant recall if seen from this angle before.

 

[kaiserbill]

Was having a look around the web on a slow Saturday night, and came across these 2 pictures.

Whilst the first one looks like an old, forlorn early Ratel sans turret, the second one shows quite a few differences on the rear of the vehicle to the production Ratels I've seen.

It looks like I will be in South Africa in December for a holiday.
Unfortunately, I will be with my wife and daughter down in The Cape.

I'm trying to figure out how to get the 950km up to Bloemfontein, spend a day at the museum, then do the return drive.
I've never been, and would like to spend hours there taking as many photos as possible, without distraction.
Hopefully try and see whether the Springfield Bussing is there, and whether it is looks like an early Ratel, or something different..
Maybe I'll just tell them I'm popping to the shop for some milk.....

 

[Asterix]

Hi guys, my first post. Thanks for accepting me.

I came accross this forum when viewing the pages from the militaryphotos forum and on seeing this forum's name, though to myself that I might just find the answer to a mistery among the members here.

It involves the Saracen. Although not a South African vehicle as such, there is some mistery sourrounding these vehicles in South Africa. A large variety of these exists in England but all are of the "shortnose" type. South Africa has also purchased some Saracens, 10 initial samples and then another 288, as far as I could determine. GKL has subsequently in the 1980's, built a prototype in England, with a lot of improvements which was then called the Saracen 88. Rumour had it that only one prototype existed and never went into procduction. The unit was to be exported from England to the USA two or so years ago.

Great was the surprise when somebody by chance, identified a South African Saracen as another Saracen 88! Following up on this, I could not find, to date, any South African Saracen that is not a Saracen 88! From the little info I could gather, the Saracens were modified in the Railway Workshops in Grahamstown and shortly thereafter, disposed of. Inspecting a Saracen, I could find no indication where the nose was extended the 4" as mentioned in an article in the Military Machines International. All of the improvements listed in this article, can be found on the South African Saracens, however.

I attach the post where the discovery was made.
"
Hi All,
I've only just caught up with reading this thread (fascinating though). Apart from a mention by Oily back in post No7 there has been no mention so far of this being a Saracen 88, reputedly VERY rare. I have in front of me a 4 page article from Military Machines International Magazine July 2002 covering the Saracen 88.....& the vehicle is identical to Monties (apart from the colour). Although I think Montie said his was a standard Mk3.....it's not is it ?

There are 14 very good pictures in the feature showing the 23 improvements carried out on Mk2 Saracens by a British company called GKL Equipment Pte Ltd. The extended nose, hinged front grill, different "German style" headlights & smoke dischargers, front tow hook, stowage bins, air outlet louvres, & all new electrics to name a few. The extended nose "allowed GKL to offer a diesel engine version". The vehicle was apparently showcased in 1988 (hence the name) & I think I noticed the build plate inside Monties motor is dated 1988

According to the article, the one featured was "the sole surviving example" & was "shortly to be exported to the US".

Does anyone else have that MMI issue ?, if so have a shuftie & see if you agree. Montie could be sitting on (in) something very rare if the feature is accurate.

Howard. "

"Hi All,
Me again. Just been excitedly re-reading that MMI feature, seems GKL also fitted the air/hydraulic braking system that Monty thought was a South African mod.

Studying the pics on here & comparing to the feature I've spotted a good 5 other small mods that are identical & match the featured 88 perfectly, chequer plate on the front wings, & knee height access steps to the engine compartment for example.

There is a small picture of the original sales brochure too showing it was modified to mount a 50cal on the AA Bren ring.

If the 88 is really rare as it says & Monty has one, that would be something would`nt it ?
The feature states "it was a one off prototype & never went into production". Spooky.

Howard"
http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16817-Saracen-Build-up/page8

I do have a lot of pics and article but all sadly exeeds the 1,5MB limit. Can anybody shed light on this mistery, please?

 

[kaiserbill]

Welcome Asterix.

Sorry I can't help, but maybe one of the others could provide some assistance.

I do know that the Saracen was upgraded in the 1980's(?), with a view to using them in rear areas or in internal security duties.

 

[Asterix]

Hi Kaiserbill, this particular Saracen is also a Saracen 88, the front lights are identical to those on a Tiger tank apparently, you will also note that it has two smoke grenade launchers per side as opposed to the 3 per side on the "normal" version, just to mention two differences.

 

[Asterix]

I would like to include a copy of the article on the Saracen 88, but no go

 

[kaiserbill]

Asterix, just to confirm.

The "vanilla" Saracen was modified by the manufacturer into a Saracen 88, of which only one model was made.

It now appears that some, or all of South Africa's Saracens are the same as this one-off Saracen 88?

 

[Asterix]

Yes sir, affirmative!

 

[Asterix]

Link to the Saracen 88: http://www.gklgroup.com/saracen88specification_1703.html

 

[Asterix]

Link to the "ordinary"british saracens: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alvis-Saracen-APC/139090816115046#

 

[CostasTT]

Saracen Mk 3 SA (1st & 4th picture and first 2 links) and Saracen 88 (the rest).
Sources:
http://www.sa-transport.co.za/military/armoured_vehicles_5.html
http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?14966-Diesel-Saracen-%28Saracen-88-%29
http://www.warwheels.net/SaracenAPCyoung.html

 

[Asterix]

All of these are Saracen 88's, not so sure about the 3rd pic, but it has the same seats as the 88

 

[CostasTT]

All of these are Saracen 88's, not so sure about the 3rd pic, but it has the same seats as the 88

Like Kaiserbill wrote - and you confirmed - the SA examples (pics 1 & 4) are identical to the 88. And the one in the third photo is definitely the 88, as indicated by the exact same camouflage scheme (and the Saladin 90 barely visible in front of it).
Just for kicks (forgive the off-topic please), here are the photos I have of the Saladin 90:

 

[kaiserbill]

The last picture, with the revised driver position with the armoured glass, was that a purely South African modification?
I've seen something similar on the South African Ferrets that were issued to their paratroopers as prime movers.

 

[CostasTT]

I think it was.

 

[curious george]

Time for some more f/book finds of "lesser spotted" samples:

 

[curious george]

Some f/book finds cont:

 

[Asterix]

The last picture, with the revised driver position with the armoured glass, was that a purely South African modification?
I've seen something similar on the South African Ferrets that were issued to their paratroopers as prime movers.

This one appears to be an South African Army modification as the mods done to the Saracens for security purposes are quite different. See Costa's post, the one that was being painted, it had the steel lathes (some) removed which were duly replaced with armoured glass as can be seen in that thread.

This came from an article regarding the mods:
"The South African National Defense Force had placed its entire fleet of 280 Saracen APC’s up for sale. All of these vehicles were refurbished during 1985 to 1988 and during this time underwent modifications to improve their RAM-D characteristics.
A 1980-88 refurbishment improved the cooling system so that it will maintain the engine's water/oil/gearbox oil temperatures at 90/100/85C with a 42C ambient temperature.
The upgrade included:
installation of an external oil circulation pump and
an oil pressure system that improve gearbox lubrication,
a stainless steel fuel tank,
a fuel filter,
fuel water trap and
a redesign of the electrical system.
The Saracen's nose was extended 150mm to accommodate tooth belts and a front tow hook.
Improvements in Design Over Original Vehicle:
Extension of Engine Compartment to fit Improved Engine Drive Belts.
Fitting of Hinges to Front End Engine Compartment enabling easier access to Radiator And Engine.
Fitting of Front Towing Hook enabling easier recovery.
Fitting of Engine Inspection Covers enabling easier access to Engine.
Redesigned Mud Wings providing better Stowage and Appearance.
Fitting Crew Stainless Steel Drinking Water Stowage Tanks 80 liters providing extra water.
Extra Stowage Bins increasing CES Equipment Stowage.
Chrome Plated Pins & Vesconite Bushes to all Hatches & Doors preventing rust and increasing ease of operations.
Insulation of Engine Compartment & Improvement of Hot Air Outlets to increase Engine/Driver's Compartment Protection from Engine Heat Transfer.
Increase Cushion Thickness increasing crew and passenger comfort.
Redesigned Engine Cooling System increasing efficiency.
Cooling System -Maximum Water Temperature 90 degrees at ambient of 42 degrees C.
Redesigned Engine Oil Cooler improving cooling - maximum oil temp. 100 deg C at Ambient 42 deg C.
Fitting of low water warning cooling system to warn driver on loss of water and cooling.
Redesigned electrical system: Alternator, Regulator, interior & exterior lights - redesigned instrument panel, control panel, wiring harness
Braking System redesign and fitting of dual air system over hydraulic.
Improving braking efficiency and improve reliability and maintain ability.
Fuel System redesigned with stainless steel tanks and new electric pumps with fuel filter and water-trap improving system.
Suspension bushes replaced with new design Vesco-Nylon bushes reducing maintenance.
Replacement of all Drive Belts with High Efficiency Type increasing reliability.
Redesign Cartridge Box and Ammo Tray. For use with 7.62mm Ammunition and Link Belts.
Fitting of Gearbox High Capacity Oil Circulation Pump and Improved Filter and Strainer with Low
Pressure Warning Light. Improvement and preventing overheating.
Fitting of Modern Oil Breathers on Transfer Box and Bevel Boxes -Prevent Loss of Oil at Top speed
Fitting of Centre Oil Level Plugs on all Vehicle Wheel Hubs -For easier Oil Filling of Wheel Hubs. "

 

[Asterix]

Starting a Saracen 88: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceDvxzdAOAY


Starting an "original" Saracen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Izvj_ISrI

 

[kaiserbill]

Some f/book finds cont:

Nice CG.

I've never seen the ferry/pontoon thing before in the first 2 pics.

The last pic is interesting.
That's a new vehicle I've never seen before.
It looks like a Buffel troop compartment mounted on the back of a Mfezi or Rinkhals vehicle.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I've never seen the ferry/pontoon thing before in the first 2 pics.

Its a ribbon bridge. Standard Soviet design copied by almost everyone. SADF version probably captured in Angola. Americans made a version out of aluminium but most everyone else out of steel.

 

[kaiserbill]

I've never seen the ferry/pontoon thing before in the first 2 pics.

Its a ribbon bridge. Standard Soviet design copied by almost everyone. SADF version probably captured in Angola. Americans made a version out of aluminium but most everyone else out of steel.

Thanks AG.

 

[kaiserbill]

Earlier on in the thread, a couple of pictures were shown of the twin ZA-35 SPAADS and the single 35mm eGLas system.

Here are a couple more pics, including operators station on the eGLas:

 

[curious george]

Some f/book finds cont:

The last pic is interesting.
That's a new vehicle I've never seen before.
It looks like a Buffel troop compartment mounted on the back of a Mfezi or Rinkhals vehicle.

Have a look at post #511 again,sure its the same vehicle.

 

[kaiserbill]

Some f/book finds cont:

The last pic is interesting.
That's a new vehicle I've never seen before.
It looks like a Buffel troop compartment mounted on the back of a Mfezi or Rinkhals vehicle.

Have a look at post #511 again,sure its the same vehicle.

It definitely is.
Has the same number (17?) on the crew compartment.

But what is it?
One of the photos was labelled Wildebeest, but whether that refers to this vehicle, I'm not sure.

 

[curious george]

But what is it?
One of the photos was labelled Wildebeest, but whether that refers to this vehicle, I'm not sure.

It was refering to this vehicle.This was the only info the original poster on f/book had on the vehicle,so thats all we/I have to go on,unfortunately.

I gather that whatever it was and whatever it was supposed to do or replace,it didnt capture the imagination of the powers that be,didnt offer anything new,or just plainly sucked and didnt make it past operational trials?

 

[Swart Gevaar]

The 'Holy Grail' of SADF wheeled vehicle projects: the Truck With No Name or LZN (Lorry Zonder Naam). More formally known as the High Mobility Logistic Vehicle (HMLV) the LZN was developed by LIW's Special B-Vehicles and was a logistics version of the G6 SP artillery gun. Only two prototypes were built of this 55 tonne monster. Was planned as a gun limber and support vehicle for the G6 and any other role needing a truck with super cross country ability that could carry 26 tonnes of cargo. I have only found one very small picture to date...

Hi AG. We are in possession of one of these vehicles. I was wondering if you have ANY further info on this vehicle? We are trying to trace it's history. I've been looking at getting info for the last year already and came across the name LZN. This is when I first came across your post here. Please send more info if you do indeed have some. I have included a few pic's for you. B)

 

[Swart Gevaar]

Time for some more f/book finds of "lesser spotted" samples:

Curious George, that first photo is a photo that I took...

 

[John21]

Welcome Asterix.

Sorry I can't help, but maybe one of the others could provide some assistance.

I do know that the Saracen was upgraded in the 1980's(?), with a view to using them in rear areas or in internal security duties.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9088.0;attach=193748;image
What publication is this from?

 

[kaiserbill]

Welcome Asterix.

Sorry I can't help, but maybe one of the others could provide some assistance.

I do know that the Saracen was upgraded in the 1980's(?), with a view to using them in rear areas or in internal security duties.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9088.0;attach=193748;image
What publication is this from?

From Helmoed Romer Heitmanns South African Arms and Armour, from around 30 years ago.

 

[kaiserbill]

Welcome Swart Gevaar.

That LZN also appears somewhere in this thread as a Fire Department vehicle page 26 Post 387.
Also, as an artillery support vehicle, page 27, Post 390.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #599.
Swart Gevaar, what kind of engine does your vehicle have?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Hi AG. We are in possession of one of these vehicles. I was wondering if you have ANY further info on this vehicle? We are trying to trace it's history. I've been looking at getting info for the last year already and came across the name LZN. This is when I first came across your post here. Please send more info if you do indeed have some. I have included a few pic's for you.

Great to have you on this forum Swart Gevaar with actual access to a LZN or as it appears to be now named “the Hulk”!

All of the info I have access to here on the LZN is posted here on this forum. In short it appears to have been built as a gun limber for the G6 which is a vehicle designed to match it off road carrying a heap of ammo. This is also where it made its most public appearance as a military vehicle in the Arabian peninsula supporting G6s in their 1990s marketing drive.

There is also some conjecture that it was used as a transporter erector launcher (TEL) for the SAAF’s RSA ballistic missile program. But I disagree with this conjecture as there seems to be no evidence or need for it. Some sources indicate a civil crane carrier vehicle was used as the RSA TEL vehicle.

 

[curious george]

Time for some more f/book finds of "lesser spotted" samples:

Curious George, that first photo is a photo that I took...

Welcome,and thank you for sharing with us!