Russian and Soviet Aircraft Carriers

[Anduriel]

Is this dock for repairs only and unsuitable for construction?

It's a repairt-only facility, both by equipment and by dock itself.
The new drydock consists of two parts - narrower inner part that's made from two smaller drydock for subs/frigates. From the photos, it's enough only for Kuz in width. If Russia plans a bigger AC (for example, Ulyanovsk revision), it may not fit. Outer part is big and theoretically you can put even a Nimitz-sized AC there. But then again, there is no significant production facilities there and no place to fit big cranes.

What about the 2 large helicopter vessels currently being built for the navy?

Kerch shipyadrds have max width of 60m so theoretically you have no limits on AC waterline width, hover current two cranes are also ~60 m wide and 320t each, so at very least you have to replace them with something wider and heavy lifting so they wouldn't limit deck size. Still better than new shipyard form scratch.
There is however question of Bosphorus and will Turkey allow passage of AC? There were no problems with USSR AC, but it was 30 years ago.
@flateric, @Deino, could you please move last replies to the right thread?

 

[Jemiba]

A photo of the docked Kuznetsov via
https://www.yaplakal.com/forum1/topic2481495.html

Is it me, or does that dock give the impression of being a rather makeshift one ?

 

[suflanker45]

It looks like that's what the Russians do. Here's the Vikramaditya high and dry during her rebuild.

 

[TMA1]

The question isn't about money, as with raising energy prices Russia will have aplenty, sanctions or not.

It absolutely is about money. The Russian budget deficit has increased during the war. They might be making more money due to energy prices but its being spent at a colossal daily rate in Ukraine and to support the Russian economy....make no mistake this war is draining their coffers. Post war they will also have to completely re-equip their army which is being eviscerated at present, as well as try and get a functioning air force. And they'll need to do this under sanctions (because they're not going away) as their main energy customer (Europe) moves rapidly away from dependence on them, they will not have the infrastructure to move those energy supplies to other markets. The Russian Navy wll be a distant fourth place in the hierarchy as usual (Strategic Rocket Forces, Army and Air Force ahead).

To build a carrier or carriers they're going to need money for a new carrier borne aircraft, new helos, escort vessels, supply ships...you name it before they actually build one.... thats a champagne price shopping list for a customer with beer money pockets...

There are those who are equally competent as well who say that Russia, though going through another hard stretch, had prepared for this in detail and explain why Russia can weather the storm. Also explain that the plan to try and regime change Russia is not on the menu in the near future. I suggest listening to more than one side of things as this geopolitical maze is not so simple and not as black and white as 96 percent of western media portrays it to be.

 

[Hood]

Let's keep the politics out of it please.
This thread is for unbuilt Soviet and Russian carriers. Explanations why they remained on drawing paper is fair game for this thread, speculative futurology is not. If and when Russia does build a new carrier and lays a keel it will be newsworthy and more fitting for the Military section of the forum.

 

[Anduriel]

Is it me, or does that dock give the impression of being a rather makeshift one ?

Unlike Vikra, where she was upgraded in Sevmash drydock (which isn't even a drydock in a classical sense), this one should be a proper one, made from two smaller ones by removing a wall between them for Kuz to fit in width, an lengthening it.
The reason why it so unpresentable is because Kuz was too long in waiting for a dock to be placed into, so when they made dock watertight via temporary gate, they quickly placed Kuz there while continuing construction of dock itself.

 

[GTX]

Russian tech firm unveils project of advanced helicopter carrier at Army forum

As the scale model suggests, helicopters take off from the warship’s upper deck that accommodates a helipad for as many as 15 gunships

tass.com

 

[BlackBat242]

Don't you just love the fantasy BS headlines TASS puts out?

 

[bobbymike]

Army-2022: Russia details ambitions for next-generation aircraft carriers | Shephard

Nevsky Design Bureau displayed a new light carrier design, Varan, and further details were revealed of the Projekt 23900 Ivan Rogov amphibious assault

www.shephardmedia.com

 

[TomS]

Don't you just love the fantasy BS headlines TASS puts out?

They're talking about this ugly thing, right?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1562518215594389504

View: https://twitter.com/navalnewscom/status/1562518215594389504

 

[Anduriel]

Don't you just love the fantasy BS headlines TASS puts out?

They're talking about this ugly thing, right?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1562518215594389504

View: https://twitter.com/navalnewscom/status/1562518215594389504

Yep, it's ugly AF.

 

[BlackBat242]

Actually, I was referring to some of the other headlines in that page after the article under discussion... pure fiction in some cases and a severe distortion of the little facts that are presented.

 

[Plupsnup]

Krylov is well known for shilling for their underwater hullforms in this manner of making a decent underwater hull and...let's say speculative above waterline area.

The picture has nothing to do with the real model, which is simply a slightly wider than normal carrier with a hull that is conventional at the bow but has a split keel at the stern. They report big propulsive gains, huge flight deck and a substantial increase of the air wing in relation to the displacement, therefore it seems indeed a very promising approach.

View attachment 673949

I love that design so much, here's some high-res photos that I've found

 

[GTX]

View: https://youtu.be/I2spJCZZGM8

 

[BlackBat242]

They don't look real. Especially the navalized Mig-21 looking aircraft. I think delta wing is not a good choice for naval aircraft.

The USN had a couple that worked pretty well.

Full delta:
F4D Skyray - it had exceptionally good low-speed handling, and was considered one of the best at taking off from and landing on a carrier.


It had enough thrust-weight to not need a catapult for light-load take-off from a carrier shorter than even the USN's Essex class:


Tailed delta (like the MiG-21):
A4D Skyhawk - served from carriers in 4 navies (USN, RAN, ARA, and MdoB) and from land with 5 more nations.
The non-US carriers were tiny, showing the Skyhawk's good carrier handling.

 

[archipeppe]

Interesting reading:

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1976/january/how-good-mig-21

 

[F.L.]

Interesting reading:

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1976/january/how-good-mig-21

Very interesting, but what does this have to do in the Russian aircraft carriers thread ?

 

[archipeppe]

Very interesting, but what does this have to do in the Russian aircraft carriers thread ?

Simply because we was discussing and eventual naval MiG-21. So the USN assessment seems to fit, indeed the only MiG-21 suitable for naval usage was the E-7/PD seen as potential concurrent of the Yakovlev 36/38.

 

[MadRat]

Liftjets were a dead end. http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/11/experimental-stol-variant-of-mig-23.html

Would have been interesting if they hadn't given up on the Ye-8 so easily. The layout had the basic configuration to be STOL but they designed the canard to create destabilized airflow rather than lift. So backwards. That and it was built around a really bad engine experiment.

 

[F.L.]

 

[alejandrogrossi]

There is another image online, appears to be a scan of the original printed version, that shows a prospective hangar deck layout with 24 of the Phantoms, 2 of the E-1 Tracers and 2 helicopters stowed. The E-1 Tracer also makes an appearance on the missile-tastic TsKB-17 1961 design here - I assume they're from the same author and/or book? Is there a data table?

I would love to see a picture of the TsKB-17 version of this TsNII 1959 PBIA concept.

hi any one have the spec for this projetc.?
The draws in black and withe shows F-4 on abord. I know its russian.
I think is mora bigger than a Clemenceau. perhaps similar than the HMS Ark Royal in tons.
The insteresting is in the foward lift the F-4 fix with out folding wing and nose. It is not the case in the lateral.
I do a western version

I think the cat would be C-13 (in this what if)
But I like that russian project.

 

[F.L.]

I don't see a chimney, what type of engine is it ? Nuclear ?

But I like that russian project.

Me too !

 

[alejandrogrossi]

I don't see a chimney, what type of engine is it ? Nuclear ?

Me too !

Yes

 

[F.L.]

Yes

Yes, it's a nuc carrier ?

 

[F.L.]

The Project 1143 Krechyet is described as an ancestor of the Kiev class.

Kirov class Battlecruisers (1977-90)

The Soviet Kirov class "Battlecruisers" by default of a better term, are indeed the most powerful guided missile cruiser ever built so far.

naval-encyclopedia.com

 

[Hood]

No the post above is a US Department of Defence artist's impression based on early reports of Kiev as she was building and early satellite recon photos showing the hull under construction.

As featured here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...rships-during-the-cold-war.31321/#post-617584

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

The Project 1143 Krechyet is described as an ancestor of the Kiev class.
View attachment 717532

Kirov class Battlecruisers (1977-90)

The Soviet Kirov class "Battlecruisers" by default of a better term, are indeed the most powerful guided missile cruiser ever built so far.

naval-encyclopedia.com

That article is a mess, it mixes up the design of ships like Project 81, Project 63 and Project 1126 which were designed in the late 1950s and first years of the early 1960s alongside the Korshun SAM system, which was designed a few years later.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

There's some information on Korshun here: pvo.guns.ru/naval/nb_navy.htm

 

[Anduriel]

I love that design so much, here's some high-res photos that I've found

Oh, BTW. This is Shtorm-KM from Krylov center. DW 76kt. Primary Nuclear powerplant w/ gas turbine secondary.

https://imgur.com/4LvYRRu

View: https://imgur.com/4LvYRRu


Still, design is quite dubious. Especially deck elevators, which became outdated in 40-es. Krylov center as always, good for designing and developing specific ship tech, but all their ship designs are strange, to say the least.

 

[DesScorp]

Especially deck elevators, which became outdated in 40-es. Krylov center as always, good for designing and developing specific ship tech, but all their ship designs are strange, to say the least.

I'm reminded of an old adage about how Russians build things, going all the way back to the AN-2 Colt:

"Russians build things their way, for their own reasons".

We don't have to like or understand it.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I'm reminded of an old adage about how Russians build things, going all the way back to the AN-2 Colt:

"Russians build things their way, for their own reasons".

We don't have to like or understand it.

Well it wasn't built, and pretty much every other Russian CATOBAR carrier design that I'm aware of from the late 1950s onwards has deck-edge elevators.

 

[F.L.]

Source : https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2018/01/07/wwii-soviet-cv-design/

 

[F.L.]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1791411541394227384

View: https://x.com/VLO225/status/1791411541394227384

 

[Archibald]

I'd like to ask something. Is there a "serious" technical comparison somewhere, between Ulyanovsk and Fujian ?

Soviet aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chinese aircraft carrier Fujian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is amusing to think that the Soviets and the Chinese started from the same place - Kuznetsov. And the chinese are moving to the next step, where the Soviets stalled at the end of Cold War. Even if there is a major difference: Fujian is not nuclear when Ulyanovsk was to be. The chinese have (wisely) added an intermediate step.

By the way, do we have any clue whether the chinese ever bought Ulyanovsk blueprints (as the cherry on the Varyag cake) ? or is it an urban legend ?

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I'd like to ask something. Is there a "serious" technical comparison somewhere, between Ulyanovsk and Fujian ?

Soviet aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chinese aircraft carrier Fujian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is amusing to think that the Soviets and the Chinese started from the same place - Kuznetsov. And the chinese are moving to the next step, where the Soviets stalled at the end of Cold War. Even if there is a major difference: Fujian is not nuclear when Ulyanovsk was to be. The chinese have (wisely) added an intermediate step.

By the way, do we have any clue whether the chinese ever bought Ulyanovsk blueprints (as the cherry on the Varyag cake) ? or is it an urban legend ?

I remember more or less in 1999, have read in internet that a russian man go to jail because he sold the blueprint of a carrier (no name mention) in 45.000 USA dollars (sic). The report was in spanish language. I jump in my seat because the news seemed me a tremendously naughty chinese trick, It is that the Chinese have a reputation for copying all.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

I'd like to ask something. Is there a "serious" technical comparison somewhere, between Ulyanovsk and Fujian ?

I think Fujian is pretty much an entirely domestic design, if there's any Soviet DNA in there it probably has a greater similarity to Project 1160 Orel than Ulyanovsk.

 

[archipeppe]

I think Fujian is pretty much an entirely domestic design, if there's any Soviet DNA

I see much more American DNA in Fujian rather anything else.

 

[HorusLupercal2077]

Невское ПКБ ведет работы по формированию облика перспективного авианосца

Невское ПКБ ведет работы по формированию облика перспективного авианосца

status-arms.ru

 

[Tzoli]

Project 1160 (or an early 1153)

Also a drawing:

https://2019.f.a0z.ru/10/04-7923609-pr.1160-avanproekt.jpg

 

[JFC Fuller]

Also a drawing:

https://2019.f.a0z.ru/10/04-7923609-pr.1160-avanproekt.jpg

Thanks @Tzoli , I have attached the drawing here so we don't lose it, along with pictures of the other three 1160/1153 variants I have seen for comparison. Stashandr's pictures show a model without Mars-Passat, but with two catapults and a battery of twenty Granits, This one combines the island/superstructure from the model shown in stashandr's pictures with the three catapult and eight Granit configuration of the original Pr.1160. The most common 1153 configuration shown has Mars-Passat, two catapults and twenty Granits.