The Russian Navy focus on frigates and submarines puts me in mind of cash strapped post 1966 Britain.

It is no accident that wishful thinking artwork abounded in both countries as a glance at this site shows.
 
What type are those two large height-finding radars on island of the original Pr.1160 model?
I can't place them on any other Soviet design of the period.
 
It should be Razliv, carried on the Dzerzhinsky after her conversion to Project 70E. NATO called it High Lune. There might be some detail differences but they are likely incidental. After looking at the pictures and looking up the Dzerzhinsky, they seem to be one and the same.
 
This digital illustration of the Project 1153 Orel-class nuclear aircraft carrier features MiG-23K and Beriev P-42 Garpoon fighters, in ASW and AEW variants, on its deck.
proyecto-1153-jpg.745610



The Yamal M-45 “TYPHOON” approaches the Project 1153 Orel-class nuclear-powered aircraft carrier
yamal-m-45-jpg.745609
 
Would be nuts to see a yeeted navalized mig-23 with steam billowing around and behind it!

Edit: I tried looking and could find no definitive answer on this. Anyone aware if project 1153 was going to use navalized gecko, or navalized tor as it's point defense missile?
 
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Sorry...I was fooled by artist's style - it's definitely is the same artist that makes drawings for Modelist-Konstruktor magazine section that has the same name (Morskaya Kollektziya).

BTW, found interesting site WLFSCD -
Soviet military laser ship, soviet aircraft carriers projects 1920-1955, etc.

Все материалы с сайта «Атрина» будут постепенно перенесены на новый сайт «ОТВАГА»

All materials from the "Atrina" website will be gradually transferred to the new "OTVAG" website

http://otvaga2004.ru/
 
Would you mind giving the credit to
Thats also from The Video Game Sea Power Naval Combat in the Missile Age, thats going to be released in a few weeks and was originally post on the Developer Txitter TriassicGames.

View: https://x.com/TriassicGames/status/1729919642901127446

You can find from the YouTube that some players try to recreate some interesting Cold War scenarios, including Oscar vs CVs, the Baltic run, the hunt for Red October, lol
 
I came across some nice images of the 1959-60 TsKB-17 "PBIA" design study on Paralay (attached below). It seems that the work got pretty detailed! I hope I've got the right format for this! The poster notes

Вообще, если говорить о таком параметре, как соотношение длины ангара к длине полётной палубы, то например у ПБИА 59го года ангар выглядит весьма здоровым, в сравнении даже с тем же 11437

[First image]

Примерно 170 метров на (в самом широком месте) 20, мб чуть поуже. Для тех (американских, по своим согласно статье Морина у НПКБ инфы не было
:mrgreen:
) истребителей вполне себе приличные размеры ангара. И это в корпусе проекта корабля длиной в 250 м с полным водоизмещением в 30 тысяч тонн. Но он тут не прямоугольной формы. А ещё тут не видно подъёмников вооружения и, по очевидным причинам, бронеящика под ПУ ПКР.

Про ангары всех остальных проектов (АВЛ-1160-1153-11435 79го года) говорить сложно - там, во всяком случае у меня, только куча предположений, основаных на планах палуб Кузи, а нам нужны как раз исключения из этого.

[Second Image]

Если судить по этой фотографии, и предполагать, что к Ульяновску всё не слишком изменилось, то становится всё более очевидным, на сколько сильно всё пришлось (бы) поправить в консерватории (чтобы увеличить ангар) после 11437.
Хотя на НСЗ про С-108 увы знают только то, что он упоминался, и всё. Чертежи они не получали.

До А.Б. добраться пока не удалось, мда.
which machine translates as
In general, if we talk about such a parameter as the ratio of the hangar length to the length of the flight deck, then for example, the hangar of the PBIA 59 looks quite healthy, in comparison even with the same 11437

About 170 meters by (at the widest point) 20, maybe a little narrower. For those (American, according to Morin's article, NPKB had no information about their own [smiley face] ) fighters, the hangar size is quite decent. And this is in the hull of a ship project 250 m long with a full displacement of 30 thousand tons. But it is not rectangular here. And here you can't see the weapons elevators and, for obvious reasons, the armored box for the anti-ship missile launcher.

It's hard to talk about the hangars of all the other projects (AVL-1160-1153-11435 of 1979) - there, at least for me, are only a bunch of assumptions based on the plans of the Kuzya decks, and we need exceptions from this.

Judging by this photo, and assuming that by Ulyanovsk everything had not changed much, it becomes increasingly obvious how much everything would have had to be corrected in the conservatory (to increase the hangar) after 11437.

Although at NSZ about S-108, alas, they only know that it was mentioned, and that's it. They did not receive the drawings.

I haven't managed to get through to A.B. yet, yeah.

Source: https://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=225&start=5250
View: https://i.imgur.com/YS1Am0D.png


YS1Am0D.png

View: https://i.imgur.com/NVPNF.jpeg

NVPNF.jpeg
 
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The image of the deck plans seems to be of a different design from the first image - they indicate there are two deck-edge aircraft elevators instead of the one of the first image.

Does anyone know which design the deck plans go to?
 
Isn't the internal layout plans are actually of the Kuznetsov's?

Yes it is!
Look at the aft section and look at the forward rectangle where the Anti-Ship missiles were located at!
 
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First posted on this Russian naval Forum in 2015:
and later on this thread in 2019:
 
Some articles about Soviet carrier-based AWACS projects and the MiG-23 for aircraft carriers.




 
First posted on this Russian naval Forum in 2015:
and later on this thread in 2019:
They're a great resource, those forums!
 
Picture n°5 does not show Pr. 1143.7 Ulyanosk but Pr. 1143.5 Riga / Varyag, to become PLAN type 001 Lianonig, with the amunition lift stuck down, which resulted in much internal weather-induced damage.
 
Cannot be that recent, because there's no snow.


Indeed ... it's from 2024!

 
If the reallocation of the crew of the Kuznetsov to the Ruccian army, what chance she will be made fit for duty? Sold? Made into timeshare?
 
Why is it that every Russian carrier design I've seen always comes whit its own set of heavy anti ship missiles? Did the " everything missile" dogma imposed by Chroetsjov have such a long reach?
Absurdly old comment, but to answer the question it's because of the Montreaux Convention to allow a ship through the straits. If it's got heavy anti-ship missiles on it, you have a decent claim to being an "aircraft-carrying cruiser" not an "aircraft carrier".



That said the [Kuznetzov] is barely 25 years old so she's got some life left and the Russians have time to decide if they're going to build a new ship (unlikely) or do something like buy a Chinese Type 002 (more likely) in 20 years. However, the fact is that the only thing Russia "needs" is a new drydock and lots of new electrical cabling to overhaul Kuznetsov for another mid-life upgrade.
You cannot assume a ship's material condition based on age alone. For example, Georgia BN was in much better material condition than Kentucky was, even though Kentucky was 10 years newer. Kentucky had suffered from an immense amount of maintenance that was deferred until she arrived on the west coast once the decision was made, so was always a week late leaving refit between patrols and screwing over one or two other boats to cover the time she was broken. (This was over 20 years ago, I doubt anyone will care now)



Soviet shipbuilding is frequently most interesting in its contrasts to its western counterparts. The completely black military budgets of the USSR meant they could throw resources at technological dead-ends like the Mike class subs or build massive one-offs like the SSV-33 with basically no public knowledge or disagreement. As a student of US shipbuilding, that's fascinating to me.
While Rickover was still Naval Reactors, there were a lot of one-off boats built to look at different things. Tullibee and Glennard P. Lipscombe ran a turbo-electric drive that was quieter but slower than steam turbines. Jack ran a counter-rotating screw arrangement. Narwhal really did a lot of stuff, from a direct-drive main engine that filled most of the aft hull diameter to scoop injection main seawater, all of which ended up as her being as expensive as a Seawolf, in constant dollars.



While I know the Russian defense industry certainly has the skills to make large carriers..
I wonder if the country itself really needs them, or if they are better served with smaller 20-30000t type ships that carry 20 or so combat aircraft (either in stobar form or some new vstol aircraft), when considering the financial situation, defense needs, operational costs, etc.
A carrier that size is basically incapable of doing anything. You need 6-8 fighters minimum, to keep a 24/7 CAP. You need 3-5 fixed-wing AEW or 5-7 helicopter AEW. You need at least 4 ASW helos to have one up and hunting, 5-7 would be better. And you need 2-3 SAR helos to fly while you're doing flight operations. That's 16 aircraft, minimum, just to protect the ship.

It can't launch a strike anywhere, or even put up more than 2 fighters to chase opposing MPAs away.



Kerch shipyadrds have max width of 60m so theoretically you have no limits on AC waterline width, hover current two cranes are also ~60 m wide and 320t each, so at very least you have to replace them with something wider and heavy lifting so they wouldn't limit deck size. Still better than new shipyard form scratch.
And you do need to repair/replace/upgrade your cranes every so often.


There is however question of Bosphorus and will Turkey allow passage of AC? There were no problems with USSR AC, but it was 30 years ago.
"Aircraft carriers" are expressly prohibited from the Straits under the Montreaux Convention. Which is why all old Soviet carriers had heavy AShMs and were claimed as "heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers".

But the tonnage limit in the Convention is only 45k. Turkey likes keeping the Convention in effect because it is more restrictive than the UNCLOS. But I cannot see the Convention being renegotiated to increase the tonnage limit.



Who laid out those Catapult lines?!? Obviously someone who had no idea how aircraft move around on the deck...



I'm reminded of an old adage about how Russians build things, going all the way back to the AN-2 Colt:

"Russians build things their way, for their own reasons".

We don't have to like or understand it.
Russians design things to function, the way they understand things need to function.

But deck elevators block the functions of a flight deck. I can only assume that the designers had no clue how a flight deck works.
 
Absurdly old comment, but to answer the question it's because of the Montreaux Convention to allow a ship through the straits. If it's got heavy anti-ship missiles on it, you have a decent claim to being an "aircraft-carrying cruiser" not an "aircraft carrier".

This is a misconception. It has anti-ship missiles because the Soviets didn't view carriers the same way the West did. They were not for strategic nuclear attack on the enemy homeland. That is what ICBMs are for. They were for sea control and area denial by extending the range of surface to surface missiles and the air defense umbrella of land bases, to defend the SSNs patrolling the bastion edges, and literally nothing else.

The Soviets would have been allowed to move the Kuznetsov for the same reason they were allowed to move the Moskvas and the Kievs: they were transiting from their shipyard to the home port and there's no particular reason to stop them from doing so. So Turkey didn't. The only time those articles come into force, as we've seen, is when there is a war involving Black Sea powers. It's why Russia has been having to negotiate with Turkey for access to the Black Sea and transiting of equipment from the Far East and Northern Fleets that is nominally shouldn't be allowed to move. That is how the initial grain deal happened.

In peacetime, the naval forces of all States, whether they have a coast on the Black Sea or not, are under the obligation to give prior notice to Turkiye through the diplomatic channel before transiting,37 except for “naval auxiliary vessels specifically designed for the carriage of fuel, liquid or nonliquid”
on condition that they shall pass through the straits singly.38 While the Black Sea countries should give notice eight days before they pass, this period can be extended up to fifteen days for non-Black Sea countries. Without being under any obligation to stop, the commander of the naval force shall communicate to a signal station at the entrance to the Dardanelles or the Bosphorus the exact composition of the force under his command.39 The maximum aggregate tonnage of all foreign naval forces that are in the course of transit through the straits shall not exceed 15,000 tons except for the Black Sea States, which may send through the straits capital ships of tonnage greater than that on condition that these vessels pass through the straits singly, escorted by not more than two destroyers.40 In addition to the tonnage restriction above, the specified forces shall not comprise more than nine vessels during one passage.41

This is how Ulyanovsk would easily get around the alleged "ban" on large carrier transits: it was never banned in the first place. The USSR and Turkey were never belligerents and there was never a Black Sea conflict in the time of the USSR besides WW2. Naturally, these provisions apply even worse to NATO members.

You cannot assume a ship's material condition based on age alone. For example, Georgia BN was in much better material condition than Kentucky was, even though Kentucky was 10 years newer. Kentucky had suffered from an immense amount of maintenance that was deferred until she arrived on the west coast once the decision was made, so was always a week late leaving refit between patrols and screwing over one or two other boats to cover the time she was broken. (This was over 20 years ago, I doubt anyone will care now)

Kuznetsov has about 30 years of deferred maintenance I guess then, since she was only able to be serviced in Mykolaiv where she was built. PD-50 was more of a stop gap until the Northern Fleet could finish their shipyards, which were never finished, because the USSR died. The current "plan" is to rapidly finish this by hastily converting a pair of submarine docks into one fit for an aircraft carrier with a wrecking ball I guess, since Mykolaiv is Ukrainian now, and regardless doesn't have shipyards anymore.

For Russia's purposes Kuznetsov might be closer to 50 years of life.

A carrier that size is basically incapable of doing anything. You need 6-8 fighters minimum, to keep a 24/7 CAP. You need 3-5 fixed-wing AEW or 5-7 helicopter AEW. You need at least 4 ASW helos to have one up and hunting, 5-7 would be better. And you need 2-3 SAR helos to fly while you're doing flight operations. That's 16 aircraft, minimum, just to protect the ship.

It can't launch a strike anywhere, or even put up more than 2 fighters to chase opposing MPAs away.

Better tell the English with their Invincible or the Japanese with their Izumo they're useless before they build three each.

Chasing MPAs away and bombing submarines is how America and Britain won the Western Front.

"Aircraft carriers" are expressly prohibited from the Straits under the Montreaux Convention. Which is why all old Soviet carriers had heavy AShMs and were claimed as "heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers".

But the tonnage limit in the Convention is only 45k. Turkey likes keeping the Convention in effect because it is more restrictive than the UNCLOS. But I cannot see the Convention being renegotiated to increase the tonnage limit.

They aren't, actually.

Turkey just says this because Turkey wants to flex it can stop a USN CVBG with a wall of text. Shtorm 23000E would not be banned even if it were 120,000 tons and armed with a single AK-630, while Nimitz with Tomahawk missiles and SM-2s would still be banned, because Turkey values its relations with Russia more than it does its relations with America and always has.

The privilege of being a riparian state is that you can openly defy the puny navies that do not occupy the Black Sea. It is ultimately Turkey's decision whether they want to even apply the Montreaux Convention and for pretty much all of history of the USSR they allowed the USSR to transit submarines, cruisers, and aircraft carriers that all exceeded the size limits of the Montreaux Convention without penalty (15,000 tons), because they were not at war and they did not want to force a war.

During 2008 there was some discussion in the 6th Fleet of sending the CVN in as a show of force and for disaster relief (they can do the ship to shore power thing IIRC) to Poti, Georgia. What actually happened was a wider discussion with Turkey and they agreed that the 6th Fleet could send the Blue Ridge instead for Operation Assured Deliverance. Russia protested this, because quite literally the Blue Ridge LCCs violated the letter of the law, since the 2008 Georgia conflict was not considered a war and the Blue Ridge was too big, but Turkey allowed it anyway.

As it stands both Ukraine and Russia are under Article 19 of the Montreaux Convention which precludes their transit of armed vessels unless they are returning to their home ports or they are rendering assistance (as the Mount Whitney was) and that only applies during wartime. During peacetime, the limit of displacement of riparian states' ships transiting the straits is functionally unlimited provided they tell Turkey they're transiting a week ahead of time.

The reason for the anti-ship missiles is more the Soviet Navy being somewhat autistic than any insane legalese conspiracy. Ulyanovsk would have been the first proper Soviet attack carrier and Turkey would have no real reason to stop them from transiting despite grossly exceeding the tonnage for a warship. Sea control in Russia simply means being able to leverage multi-axis TOT with anti-ship cruise missiles rather than manned CVWs. In that sense, the P-700s were an economic measure, not a legal one, because it means a dozen fewer tactical fighters need to be carried. Fewer ordnance and jet fuel. Smaller ship for the same punch.

Just mind the launch silos' doors.

Russians design things to function, the way they understand things need to function.

But deck elevators block the functions of a flight deck. I can only assume that the designers had no clue how a flight deck works.

The recovery lane is unbothered and has literally zero obstructions. The deck elevators interfere less with flight ops than the port side elevator on a USN carrier tbh. Ultimately the choice for deck edge vs flight deck elevator is for battle damage over bomb farm size. Evidently, the ship is meant to take a beating and doesn't care much for having a large bomb farm.

Perhaps it's meant solely to deliver tactical nuclear weapons and maintain a small DLI pair.
 
This is a misconception. It has anti-ship missiles because the Soviets didn't view carriers the same way the West did. They were not for strategic nuclear attack on the enemy homeland. That is what ICBMs are for. They were for sea control and area denial by extending the range of surface to surface missiles and the air defense umbrella of land bases, to defend the SSNs patrolling the bastion edges, and literally nothing else.
Yet the Russians went out of their way to call it an aircraft-carrying cruiser, not an aircraft carrier.



Kuznetsov has about 30 years of deferred maintenance I guess then, since she was only able to be serviced in Mykolaiv where she was built. PD-50 was more of a stop gap until the Northern Fleet could finish their shipyards, which were never finished, because the USSR died. The current "plan" is to rapidly finish this by hastily converting a pair of submarine docks into one fit for an aircraft carrier with a wrecking ball I guess, since Mykolaiv is Ukrainian now, and regardless doesn't have shipyards anymore.

For Russia's purposes Kuznetsov might be closer to 50 years of life.
That's how I see it. I would not be surprised if she sank permanently due to rusting out.



Better tell the English with their Invincible or the Japanese with their Izumo they're useless before they build three each.
Invincibles packed extra ASW helos, as do the Izumos.

Their role is ASW carriers. They'd be better if they were larger, and had a fixed-wing ASW craft like an S-3 Viking, but they're acceptable with Sea Kings or Merlins.



The recovery lane is unbothered and has literally zero obstructions. The deck elevators interfere less with flight ops than the port side elevator on a USN carrier tbh. Ultimately the choice for deck edge vs flight deck elevator is for battle damage over bomb farm size. Evidently, the ship is meant to take a beating and doesn't care much for having a large bomb farm.
The port elevator on a US carrier, once they were cleared off the landing path, exists to bring up aircraft to the waist cats. Most of the aircraft launched from waist cats are the "unusual" operations, things like the AEW or ASW plane or maybe a tanker. Waist cats are also used for getting an Alpha Strike up faster.


Perhaps it's meant solely to deliver tactical nuclear weapons and maintain a small DLI pair.
Maybe.

In any case, DO NOT LIKE that design!
 
Yet the Russians went out of their way to call it an aircraft-carrying cruiser, not an aircraft carrier.

Which is nothing more than a weird translation of a hyper specific/autistic Russian naval surface combatant niche role.

The U.S. would've had similar problems classifying the Self-Escorting CVA of 1958 from Friedman's U.S. Aircraft Carriers.

The Russian designation of the Kuznetsov would nominally classify it as a direct replacement of the Moskva, which it was, i.e. anti-submarine cruiser. That's because they are intended to fight submarines near the bastion border, bring their own airfield to protect the SAG since they operate on the edges of range of Su-27 and MiG-23, and because the C in CVN means Cruiser, too.

By happenstance it also can carry nuclear tipped cruise missiles, conduct a deep open ocean transit operation, and fire strategic nuclear weapons from Halifax at the Eastern Seaboard or something. After all, it is a strategic (nuclear-armed) cruiser. Which just belies how meaningless and irrelevant hull designations are in the modern era. You only need to know three things: is it on the surface or underwater, can it carry nuclear weapons (either air-delivered or missile), and how many fixed-wing aircraft does it carry.

Is a Spruance an anti-submarine destroyer, an air defense frigate, or a strategic nuclear missile cruiser? Depending on who you ask...

Anyway Montreaux didn't stop Stalin or Khrushchev from idolizing "proper" actual aircraft carriers by potentially building a ship after looking at the Essex and the Graf Zeppelin and smushing them together. The only people who say "aircraft carriers cannot pass" are literally the Turkish government these days. That's literally so they can snub their noses at the U.S. Navy. Wouldn't be shocked if there are a couple people charged with promulgating this myth from a corner desk at the Teskilat. Back in the 80s it was mostly Yale scholars trying to stop the USSR from building Tblisi and Ulyanovsk.

TSkB-17 made Project 71/72 which was a sketch design for a 30-40,000t attack carrier with a wing of 30-60 aircraft. It got bigger until 1945. It was canceled after WW2, with the need for budget to rebuild the USSR (along with the super heavy battleships), and the submarine programs taking priority.

1741432163701.gif

Aircraft carriers aren't mentioned in the Montreaux Convention. They're only specified as not being capital ships. This doesn't mean they're not allowed. It means, if it wants to, Turkey can choose to not allow them passage. Turkey would simply not make that choice. It would not have done it for Project 72 or Stalin and it did not do it with Kuznetsov and Gorbachev or Kiev and Brezhnev.

When it has been given the choice between pursuing American desires or fostering diplomatic relations with its northern neighbor, Turkey consistently chooses the latter, because good relations with Russia is more important for Turkey's security than helping the Americans. U.S. legal scholars have simply done a very European thing, by attempting to lawfare the former USSR from having big CVs post-WW2, but it hasn't worked because lawfare is kind of fake.

It's why I brought up the Mount Whitney incident from 2008 during Assured Deliverance. It was a rare moment of lawfare from the Russian side, directly echoing American attempts to bottle up Soviet shipbuilding in the Black Sea at Mykolaiv, and the Navy just sort of beat themselves by not sailing the Harry Truman through the strait lol.

Before law, and before hypotheticals, comes the actual issue of diplomacy (what does Turkey get out of this) and the practicals (what do the Soviets intend to do with the Kuznetsov). As it turns out, based on our information from archives, the answer was "nothing at all" and "to hunt submarines about 300 kilometers from land in the North Sea to protect the SSBN bastions from 688 and Trafalgar incursion" which are the actual reasons why the Kiev and Kuznetsov was allowed to pass through the Dardenelles.

It's also why the Mount Whitney was allowed to pass. Harry Truman would probably fail the "what does Turkey gain" part of the question.

Invincibles packed extra ASW helos, as do the Izumos.

Their role is ASW carriers. They'd be better if they were larger, and had a fixed-wing ASW craft like an S-3 Viking, but they're acceptable with Sea Kings or Merlins.

They're multipurpose since they can operate F-35B. Hyugas are actual ASW goobers since they're basically overgrown landing pads.

The port elevator on a US carrier, once they were cleared off the landing path, exists to bring up aircraft to the waist cats. Most of the aircraft launched from waist cats are the "unusual" operations, things like the AEW or ASW plane or maybe a tanker. Waist cats are also used for getting an Alpha Strike up faster.

If it's permanently down it affects flight ops far more than any of the Krylov designs, which might affect the shape of a bomb farm I guess.

Maybe.

In any case, DO NOT LIKE that design!

It's very European yeah.
 
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