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ASC opens submarine innovation hub
The shipbuilding company has unveiled a new science and technology hub in South Australia, set up to support its ongoing work to sustain and upgrade the Collins Class fleet. ASC has announced the es
There is a Y-8 ASW variant in service though it is a fairly recent development.I would suggest we'll know how seriously the PLAN will take the threat the day they unveil a P-1/P-8 clone instead of warmed up transport conversion jobs. We've seen the F-35 clone and the E-3 clone but no advanced ASW/MPA aircraft yet.
Nowhere has the RAN or the Australian Govt indicated any intent of operating for even a few years without any submarine capability. Moreover, one of the original Sovereign Industrial Capability Priorities is Collins Class submarine maintenance and technology upgrade. This translates into ensuring a capability is maintained until the Collins class is no longer in service.Introducing a nuclear submarine fleet has usually been done in conjunction with operating conventional submarines for as long as possible to cover roles not needing an SSN.
The US Navy were the only Cold War nation to take its conventional boats out of service altogether.
This became a problem when the old SSKs had all gone and US conventional boats could not be supplied to Taiwan for example.
The UK got rid of its 4 Upholder class as soon as the Cold War finished. Canada which had from time to time looked at an SSN force bought them with mixed results.
The RAN is unlucky in that options for submarines are not very convenient.
The US and UK no longer make SSK so only France could offer a design (and a possible SSN as well).
A UK or US SSN is thus needed for Australia but as explained above does not mesh well with the lifespan of RAN SSK.
Sources for off the shelf SSK with decent endurance are limited to France and Japan.. South Korea, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Netherlands make SSK but they lack endurance.
As the UK did with Nimrod before buying new Boeing ASW the Australians may have to live with a period of a few years where RAN crews serve with the US and RN and a US and or RN sub is assigned to work with the RAN.
France has operated a small force of SSN for many years with fewer submarines than the RN or USN.
Information about how closely this force has worked with the RN and USN does not seem to be available.
France has a "cultural" approach to working with NATO and its weapons are not always compatible with US and UK systems.
The Australians unlike the RAF were able to operate the Mirage III. (Spain another user was not a NATO member).
Shame that we can't all get along...
@bobbymike![]()
France’s New SSN Flexes Undersea Capabilities
Commissioned into service at Brest on 3 June, the attack submarine Suffren is the first of six next-generation Barracuda-class submarines for the French Marine Nationale.www.usni.org
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US admiral's blunt warning on America's capacity to build Australian subs
Helping Australia acquire nuclear-powered submarines could be too big a burden for America's shipyards, a senior US Navy official warns.www.abc.net.au
Nothing is ever simple, and a further complication is both the US and the UK have now initiated programs for their next-generation successors to the Virginia and Astute classes.
The timing of the US SSN(X) and UK Submersible Ship Nuclear Replacement (SSNR) programs ensures their relevance to Australia, probably not as potential platforms but featuring enhanced capabilities capable of inclusion in late-build Virginia-class or Astute-class boats.
The first nuclear boat for the RAN is expected to be completed around 2035, completion of the first US SSN(X) is scheduled for 2031, while a firm timeline has yet to be disclosed for the SSNR, but it’s likely to be required around 2035 when first-of-class HMS Astute completes 25 years of service.
It depends, the new boomers have a common missile section, while NG and EB are sharing Virginia construction, each building the same sections for every boat. The Virginias in particular were deliberately designed to be modular, which has facilitated the massive block to block changes.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
It depends, the new boomers have a common missile section, while NG and EB are sharing Virginia construction, each building the same sections for every boat. The Virginias in particular were deliberately designed to be modular, which has facilitated the massive block to block changes.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
I can see common sections being used on three or more related designs. Say a US reactor section and an RN reactor section, US bow section, RN bow section. Common VPM sections for which ever navy wants them, pretty much everything else being common. Same basic design enables USN SSN, RN SSN and RAN SSN, as well as a USN SSGN.
Or an outstanding success which brings the strengths of all 3 nations and offers multiple sources for production and support.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
Or an outstanding success which brings the strengths of all 3 nations and offers multiple sources for production and support.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
Jumping to conclusions on something that is purely speculative at this stage. I suggest you hold off on such negative opinions until there are some facts. And even if such a design goes ahead there is nothing to suggest this would occur.Such an approach would appear to remove the UK’s ability to independently build their own submarines (and not just those responsible for carrying the nuclear deterrent).
More of the same as above.With such an approach the UK would make some content but inevitably it would be primarily US content (or UK licenced build of US content) in these theoretical future “British” (and/ or Australian) SSNs.
Cynicism will get you nowhere. Remember that we are talking about something that is just speculation as this stage.Or an outstanding success which brings the strengths of all 3 nations and offers multiple sources for production and support.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
More likely the former.
Cynicism will get you nowhere. Remember that we are talking about something that is just speculation as this stage.Or an outstanding success which brings the strengths of all 3 nations and offers multiple sources for production and support.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
More likely the former.
As it currently stands, as I understand it, the Astutes are UK designed, produced with UK technology and systems (there is inevitably some cross-sharing of knowledge and some technology with the US).
The UK sub building pattern is building their SSN class then their SSBN class then back again to maintain the ongoing capacity/ capability.
There are already points of significant convergence between UK subs and US subs plan going forward: my understanding is that the next classes of US and UK SSBNs will share the same (US designed and specified) missile sections while the UK appears to be aligning with future US reactor designs (presumably still to be built in the UK but very much the US designs).
In that context proposals to have a tri-nation future SSN is really a case of becoming a junior partner/ sub-contractor in producing the future US SSN which the UK would then effectively licence build in the UK. It makes sense from a US perspective (more subs produced for improved economies of scale, can cherry pick the minority content from the UK that suits them, etc.) and for the UK it would have significant cost advantages by greatly reducing duplication of effort/ overlap with the US etc. In fairness this may be seen by the UK as the only affordable and/or realistic direction to go in.
But such a move would inevitably eliminate the realistic ability of the UK to regenerate that independent capability and capacity (much more so than, say, even an aviation equivalent of ditching the Tempest project and the UK becoming a junior partner in the next generation US combat aircraft project).
Too much independent infrastructure, experience, knowledge etc, that couldn’t realistically be rebuilt would inevitably go away; the UK won’t be able to turn the clock back and will be dependent on the US for future submarine classes with the proportion UK content subject to future negotiations.
It depends, the new boomers have a common missile section, while NG and EB are sharing Virginia construction, each building the same sections for every boat. The Virginias in particular were deliberately designed to be modular, which has facilitated the massive block to block changes.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
I can see common sections being used on three or more related designs. Say a US reactor section and an RN reactor section, US bow section, RN bow section. Common VPM sections for which ever navy wants them, pretty much everything else being common. Same basic design enables USN SSN, RN SSN and RAN SSN, as well as a USN SSGN.
But if there is an RN bow and an RN reactor (and likely an RN-specific control room), what actually is left in common between the RN and USN? Berthing? Which then has to be modified because of different accommodation standards.
Submarines are extremely complex beasts, their auxiliary and hotel systems are a level beyond what you find pretty much anywhere else. Almost every system on a submarine is bespoke, the savings on standardising on even just auxiliary systems would be substantial. The savings on the cost of certifying common systems alone would be mind blowing.It depends, the new boomers have a common missile section, while NG and EB are sharing Virginia construction, each building the same sections for every boat. The Virginias in particular were deliberately designed to be modular, which has facilitated the massive block to block changes.A tri-national SSN(X)? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me on all levels.
I can see common sections being used on three or more related designs. Say a US reactor section and an RN reactor section, US bow section, RN bow section. Common VPM sections for which ever navy wants them, pretty much everything else being common. Same basic design enables USN SSN, RN SSN and RAN SSN, as well as a USN SSGN.
But if there is an RN bow and an RN reactor (and likely an RN-specific control room), what actually is left in common between the RN and USN? Berthing? Which then has to be modified because of different accommodation standards.
The reality is the UK ad a submarine design and building blackhole before the Astutes that meant they had serious issues with the project due to loss of institutional knowledge. The fix they used was to reach out to the US, EB specifically, to help them get over the issues. Don't get me wrong the Astutes are great boats, but they were built with substantial US help.
The UK sub building pattern is building their SSN class then their SSBN class then back again to maintain the ongoing capacity/ capability.
There are already points of significant convergence between UK subs and US subs plan going forward: my understanding is that the next classes of US and UK SSBNs will share the same (US designed and specified) missile sections while the UK appears to be aligning with future US reactor designs (presumably still to be built in the UK but very much the US designs).
In that context proposals to have a tri-nation future SSN is really a case of becoming a junior partner/ sub-contractor in producing the future US SSN which the UK would then effectively licence build in the UK. It makes sense from a US perspective (more subs produced for improved economies of scale, can cherry pick the minority content from the UK that suits them, etc.) and for the UK it would have significant cost advantages by greatly reducing duplication of effort/ overlap with the US etc. In fairness this may be seen by the UK as the only affordable and/or realistic direction to go in.
But such a move would inevitably eliminate the realistic ability of the UK to regenerate that independent capability and capacity (much more so than, say, even an aviation equivalent of ditching the Tempest project and the UK becoming a junior partner in the next generation US combat aircraft project).
Too much independent infrastructure, experience, knowledge etc, that couldn’t realistically be rebuilt would inevitably go away; the UK won’t be able to turn the clock back and will be dependent on the US for future submarine classes with the proportion UK content subject to future negotiations.
This may actually help AUKUS as the original Chinese push through other parties was aimed as killing the RAN nuclear power option, this however is aimed at increasing safeguards which could make it more certain that the RAN option will proceed.![]()
Indonesia claims success in fight over AUKUS nuclear subs
Amid anxiety about Australia’s submarine plans under its pact with the US and Britain, Jakarta says its bid for stricter regulations on nuclear naval power has won wide support.www.smh.com.au
Regards
Pioneer
Just another argument for why LEU is a better option.This may actually help AUKUS as the original Chinese push through other parties was aimed as killing the RAN nuclear power option, this however is aimed at increasing safeguards which could make it more certain that the RAN option will proceed.![]()
Indonesia claims success in fight over AUKUS nuclear subs
Amid anxiety about Australia’s submarine plans under its pact with the US and Britain, Jakarta says its bid for stricter regulations on nuclear naval power has won wide support.www.smh.com.au
Regards
Pioneer
Remove the loop holes that other countries may use to acquire nuclear weapons through the back door of nuclear power and the RAN case looks better and better.
Perhaps it's too obvious to state...the US has the advantage of adding block changes to a continuous production line in Virginia-class boats. The economy of scale, expertise, and production experience on a given platform is an objective fact. The UK loses all three when production of one class stops to build another.Probably bears repeating:
Nothing is ever simple, and a further complication is both the US and the UK have now initiated programs for their next-generation successors to the Virginia and Astute classes.
The timing of the US SSN(X) and UK Submersible Ship Nuclear Replacement (SSNR) programs ensures their relevance to Australia, probably not as potential platforms but featuring enhanced capabilities capable of inclusion in late-build Virginia-class or Astute-class boats.
The first nuclear boat for the RAN is expected to be completed around 2035, completion of the first US SSN(X) is scheduled for 2031, while a firm timeline has yet to be disclosed for the SSNR, but it’s likely to be required around 2035 when first-of-class HMS Astute completes 25 years of service.
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Which submarine will Australia build? - Australian Defence Magazine
Now it’s been decided that the RAN is to acquire a fleet of nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarines (SSNs), the question is – which one?www.australiandefence.com.au