RAF Puma Replacement?

Scott Kenny said:
Given the desired size the various bits of Brit military like for their "medium lift" helicopters, the EH101/Merlin seems a good replacement for the Puma.

If the Army is comfortable going down to squad (sorry, section) transport sized helicopters, then the Blackhawk makes sense. Or if the program drags on so long that the V-280s enter service before a decision is made, then I could see the UK getting V-280s instead. But that also means you need 2-3x as many helos compared to Puma/Merlin.

Specifically for CSAR, though, I find it really hard to argue with the CV-22 Osprey. Even if it means you only operate 10 of the beasts. The speed for getting a downed pilot out of trouble is just about unbeatable (and the ability to carry a section of grunts to guard the medics helps).
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Valid points there, as there are quite a few cynics current and retired mil here that think of the NMH decision drags on, it wont happen as the money is needed for stuff on the ground, more tanks boots on the ground etc. So next is our co-operation with the US Army on FVL which in this case is the V-280.

Merlin was not really Puma replacement per se, it was more for Wessex... but as i have probably said while talking to then RAF Support Helicopter Force (SHF) 3 decades agom they were adamant a Blackhawk be the perfect replacement for the WEssex as opposed to the Merlin, due to its complexity.

Out of 28 (AC) Squadron, one of the Flights was supposedly slated for CSAR duties but never fully materialised due to budgetary constraints. I have spoken to a Bristow pilot who flies AW189 for our UK Maritime Coast Guard Agency, who is ex RAF and held the bible, the holy grail of RAF CSAR plans. This was during one of his staff ground tours, but it all stayed in the big fat folder ...

Don't get me wrong, we do hold CSAR exercises but at the end of the day I have always been told if asking about our CSAR capability and its a case of letting the likes of the USAF help us out during joint operations. Why? because they are experts at CSAR for 6 decades and have the resources which if you add it up

Rotary Wing
Fixed Wing CAS 'Sandy'
Tankers for both Rotary Wing and other fixed wing support
EW assets
AWACS

Then that is already a large chunk of our RAF let alone other services assets,

The French Armee de l'Air are also quite good, as they have dedicated unit 1/67 'Pyrenees' squadron with their AAR equipped EC725, (my pics below from Paris Air Show 2017 of their a/c and support equipment ) and H225M.


ec725_caracal_1.jpg ec725_caracal_2.jpg ec725_caracal_3.jpg ec725_caracal_4.jpg ec725_caracal_5.jpg ec725_caracal_6.jpg ec725_caracal_7.jpg ec725_caracal_8.jpg ec725_caracal_9.jpg ec725_caracal_10.jpg

Btw going back 4 decades, we were offered the then Aerospatiale AS332M Super Puma to fill Air Staff Target 304 to already replace our Pumas that were only a decade old!

cheers
 
Scott Kenny said:
Specifically for CSAR, though, I find it really hard to argue with the CV-22 Osprey. Even if it means you only operate 10 of the beasts. The speed for getting a downed pilot out of trouble is just about unbeatable (and the ability to carry a section of grunts to guard the medics helps).
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There was apparently a command post exercise done by the UK MoD some years ago. The scenario was that a busload of British tourists had been hijacked by the Official Baddies somewhere or other (I think Egypt was the worry at the time) and UKSF were to be sent in to extract them.

The exercise wound up needing the RAF's entire air transport force at the time to do an EAGLE CLAW type operation, with the associated challenges. Someone suggested running the hypothetical scenario with Ospreys. A force of 8 (designated 666 Squadron for exercise purposes) could do the job without support.
 
Yellow Palace said:
There was apparently a command post exercise done by the UK MoD some years ago. The scenario was that a busload of British tourists had been hijacked by the Official Baddies somewhere or other (I think Egypt was the worry at the time) and UKSF were to be sent in to extract them.

The exercise wound up needing the RAF's entire air transport force at the time to do an EAGLE CLAW type operation, with the associated challenges. Someone suggested running the hypothetical scenario with Ospreys. A force of 8 (designated 666 Squadron for exercise purposes) could do the job without support.
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I mean, the Osprey requirements really came about because of how complex EAGLE CLAW ended up being, so I'm not surprised at that outcome.

I think if you have a fleet of 12 Ospreys, you will have 8 constantly available for missions. So that's my recommendation for the RAF to get.
 
The recent RAF Historical Society Journal No.81 Rotary - Firmly on the Critical Path shed some light on the lack of a CSAR capability, Merlin and JHC.
The JHC certainly looked at doing so but it was felt that the dedicated training requirements and involvement of other agencies would swamp the SAR force. They saw that the US for example had what amounted to a separate CSAR force with specialist aircraft with defensive systems etc. and the UK could never afford a full set up like that (although as Raven points out above, other European forces have used helicopters for CSAR quite effectively without all the bells and whistles). Chinook got some CSAR capability but the worry was that expanding that role would be detrimental to the UK's SAR coverage (note to non-UK members, coastal SAR was operated by the MoD on behalf of the Department of Transports - since 2015 SAR has been fully privatised). Medical Emergency Response Team (MERT) flights were undertaken in Afghanistan, which provided something approaching that capability, but certainly not full CSAR.
Of course since 2015 SAR has gone away mostly for the RAF, apart from some residual overseas cover, but there hasn't been the funds, or platforms, to really implement it.

I think there was internal resistance within the RAF against the Merlin. No. 28 Squadron had to 'push' the Merlin to the rest of the RAF and Army to really show what it was capable of doing and shoehorning themselves to take on tasks. They performed well in Bosnia and in Iraq in 2005. But there is no sense that the RAF ever 'missed' them once they were gone, perhaps in reality there were just too few of them to really make an impact on the top brass to fully utilise them. If there had been a chance to build a CSAR capability, Merlin was the ideal platform to have done so - some crews it seems were given training in CSAR circa 2005-6.
The Support, Amphibious and Battlefield Rotorcraft programme was meant to replace Puma and Sea King HC.4 in 2009 with new helicopters (more Chinooks or Merlins, NH90, CH-53E, S-92, AS532 Cougar, MV-22) but the MoD decided to take the cheaper option of transferring the HC.3s to the Navy and then convert them into iHC.3 and then full HC.4 standard.

Interestingly the CO of 28 Sqn claims that only 30% of the HC.3's systems were common to the HM.1 and with a lot of Apache commonality even the RTM.322 engines, gearboxes or rotors could not be swapped with the HM.1s either. It was very much a different helicopter from the original naval version. The RAF seemed to get on better with AgustaWestland and Lockheed Martin in sorting out technical issues that the RN did.
He also claims that the air-to-air refuelling capability was proven and that they flew with the probes fitted as often as they could, but (AFAIK) although it was cleared by AgustaWestland for the US HX-1 bid and the Italians on their HH-101As, it doesn't seem to have ever been operationally cleared for UK use until the era of the HC.4.
 
Fluff said:
Maybe its just me, but is bringing all these different fleets into 1 deal, actually helpful?

We are trying to replace 24 full 'combat' ready aircraft, in UK/ Europe.

Plus a handful in Belize, and another handful in Cyprus?
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Another brilliant acquisition strategy fails.

I think @Fluff had it right in his post above from 2 years ago… was always going to be hard to justify a common fleet given the tension between the 2 stated missions.

Two years wasted… Hopefully this allows for a properly militarized Puma replacement. Still not completely convinced by the AW189 or H175M for such a small order, given the amount of customization needed to bring them up to military standards. But I guess if they can swing it there would be other buyers lining up in the future, and UK Inc would get a cut of the revenue.

But a lot simpler to buy some H225Ms or even some Aussie NH90s (god forbid!) and be done with it?
 
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H_K said:
Another brilliant acquisition strategy fails.

I think @Fluff had it right in his post above from 2 years ago… was always going to be hard to justify a common fleet given the tension between the 2 stated missions.

Two years wasted… Hopefully this allows for a properly militarized Puma replacement. Still not completely convinced by the AW189 or H175M for such a small order, given the amount of customization needed to bring them up to military standards. But I guess if they can swing it there would be other buyers lining up in the future, and UK Inc would get a cut of the revenue.

But a lot simpler to buy some H225Ms or even some Aussie NH90s (god forbid!) and be done with it?
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Feels like UKGov is trying to kick the can down the road until they can buy V-280s... in the 2030s.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Feels like UKGov is trying to kick the can down the road until they can buy V-280s... in the 2030s.
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Given the current sate of affairs with HM Government I suspect its a tad more prosaic... kicking it down the road till they don't have to make a decision... just add it to the mess they leave for the next lot...

Zeb
 
zebedee said:
Given the current sate of affairs with HM Government I suspect its a tad more prosaic... kicking it down the road till they don't have to make a decision... just add it to the mess they leave for the next lot...

Zeb
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I was hoping for a bit more competence than that, but it is a government we are talking about after all...
 
The RAF fought for years to get Chinooks and is a major user of the type. I suspect that not replacing the Puma fleet is somehow related.
Neither the Government nor I suspect the next one has much interest in this issue now that no UK manufacturer is involved. Even when Westlands were still British Yeovil is not a key seat for either Tory or Labour.
 
zebedee said:
H145 purchase for Brunei and Cyprus... Possibly a sensible move given the NMH delays...

Flight: UK MoD to buy six H145s in fresh blow to NMH plans

Zeb
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H_K said:
Hopefully this allows for a properly militarized Puma replacement. Still not completely convinced by the AW189 or H175M for such a small order, given the amount of customization needed to bring them up to military standards. ...
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uk 75 said:
Neither the Government nor I suspect the next one has much interest in this issue now that no UK manufacturer is involved. Even when Westlands were still British Yeovil is not a key seat for either Tory or Labour.
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If you'll permit me - the AW149 (not the 189) being offered is already a fully military helicopter from the ground up. The structure was redesigned (in the UK, interestingly, long before NMH) to meet stringent crash/battle damage requirements, and the aircraft is, as a result, more crashworthy and more survivable than a Black Hawk. It simply isn't an oil and gas 139/189 painted green. Nor would it be an 'orphan' - Poalnd, Egypt, Thailand and N Macedonia have all ordered or operate 149s.

Moreover, a UK manufacturer is heavily involved - Leonardo Helicopters' Yeovil plant supports thousands of British jobs, and AW149 is critical to its future. Yeovil gives the UK an end-to-end capability, without which our ability to do UORs on Chinook/Apache/etc. would be compromised, let alone the ongoing trickle of export orders for AW101 and AW159.

The H145 buy is profoundly worrying, and may give the unremarkable H175M an edge in the NMH competition itself.

We may no more today, since the smart money seems to be on James Cartlidge finally announcing the ITN at the helo conference during his keynote today. Doing so without first telling Parliament would once have been frowned upon, but seems to be part of this government's normal modus operandi.
 
All three shortlisted bidders have received an Invitation to Negotiate today with an an award in 2025; Airbus H175M, the Leonardo AW149, and Lockheed Martin S-70M Black Hawk. Award will be highly weighted for domestic manufacturing content and export potential.

www.gov.uk

Future UK military helicopter reaches next competition stage

The next stage of the New Medium Helicopter (NMH) Programme has been announced by the Minister for Defence Procurement, James Cartlidge, today.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
The Poles obviously rated the AW149 as the most cost effective option.
The AW149 will have the greatest domestic manufacturing content.
I can't begin to predict which of a Gosport Black Hawk, a Broughton H175M or a Yeovil AW149 will have the greatest export potential.

Just select 149 and stop mucking about!
 
I seem to remember back in the Eurocopter days one of the executives describing the UK as "Simply not metal bashers" so I'm not convinced the Broughton* option will be anything other than a simple assembly operation, likewise the Gosport Black Hawk. 149 is probably the only one that maintains any for of industrial/design capacity in the UK

Sadly as with many other things over here at the moment it would not surprise me if this is being kicked into the long grass so the next government are the ones who have to make a decision.

Zeb

*Broughton being my local factory I would like nothing more than seeing new airframes flying up and down the River Dee on test flights however whimsy is not what I would describe as a good thing to base industrial policy on.
 
so basically its the Blackhawk vs AW149 vs H175M

the latter two, look very similar to me. I believe they were even introduced the same year
 
Giving this to Airbus would be a head-scratcher, so I'm half expecting MoD to go that way.
 
Without getting party political an announcement by a sitting Government before an election that they can
claim the credit for but for which it looks likely they won’t still be around to have to find the money for sounds attractive from a political perspective.

Additionally a less than scrupulous Government may look to lock an apposition into following their plans, or force the opposition once in office to make potentially unpopular decisions like cancelling.
 
Moose said:
Giving this to Airbus would be a head-scratcher, so I'm half expecting MoD to go that way.
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I mean, they already bought a bunch of H145s for Cyprus, Brunei, and training. Getting more Airbus helos would surely improve commonality. /s
 
heads up, Ive merged Forest's thread since it already exists with the one Tom found
 
Jackonicko said:
The Poles obviously rated the AW149 as the most cost effective option.

Just select 149 and stop mucking about!
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If this is the case then there's no need to faff around including wider "UK value" metrics in the assessment?
 
Well a UK-screwed together Blackhawk has no export potential - not when LM have the old PZL plant turning out export-market S-70i already. Besides we tried this back in the 80s with the RTM322 engine and got no takers.

Just order the AW149 and be done with it.

kaiserd said:
Without getting party political an announcement by a sitting Government before an election that they can
claim the credit for but for which it looks likely they won’t still be around to have to find the money for sounds attractive from a political perspective.
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If we looked at this is purely vote winning terms for the government, Broughton is the only Labour seat out of the three sites...
 
I don't know if this is an honest mistake or an attempt to run political stuff past the board moderators, but that link from January has nothing whatsoever to do with the RAF getting H145s.
 
Here is a link to an actual story about the contract award. It just confirms the six airframes that were already announced in November 2023.

UK contracts H145 helicopters for Brunei, Cyprus missions

The United Kingdom has contracted Airbus to deliver six new Airbus Helicopters H145 rotorcraft to be used in Brunei and Cyprus.
www.janes.com
 
Things not looking good.

www.flightglobal.com

Minimum quantity sought through New Medium Helicopter tender falls further, sources indicate

The UK could buy as few as 23 aircraft through its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest, FlightGlobal can reveal - a dramatic reduction on the up to 44 units originally envisaged for the programme and a total that exactly matches the size of one of the four fleets the platform ...
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com

Text excerpt due to paywall:

The UK could buy as few as 23 aircraft through its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest, FlightGlobal can reveal – a dramatic reduction on the up to 44 units originally envisaged for the programme and a total that exactly matches the size of one of the four fleets the platform was meant to replace.

While the Ministry of Defence (MoD) maintains that the total of “up to 44 platforms” cited in 2022 tender documents still applies, the actual figure being sought from the three shortlisted bidders is now much lower.
In February this year, the MoD published its long-awaited invitation to negotiate (ITN) document which laid out the exact requirements for the procurement, including quantity, pricing and aircraft specifications.

Although there had been hints last year that the number of helicopters being sought had fallen to the 25-35 range, the ITN now calls for between 23 and 32 airframes, according to people familiar with the document.

Prior to the release of the ITN, 32 was seen as the most likely total given the MoD’s ambition for the NMH platform to replace multiple types in the UK’s inventory.

At the outset of the programme, this included the Royal Air Force’s 23-strong fleet of Puma HC2 transports, alongside Bell 212s and 412s operated in Brunei and Cyprus, plus the Airbus Helicopters AS365 N2 Dauphins flown by the Army Air Corps’ (AAC’s) 658 Squadron in support of domestic counter-terrorism missions conducted by special forces.

However, on 18 April, the MoD confirmed a contract with Airbus Helicopters – first disclosed last November – to supply six H145s for the Brunei and Cyprus missions that are currently being backfilled with Pumas.

The removal of those aircraft from the remit of NMH – justified by the MoD on cost grounds – is clearly the main reason for the smaller buy.

The ITN offers no guidance on quantities beyond the range outlined; bidders are free to offer the total number of aircraft they think is appropriate and will then be scored accordingly.

Despite the lower quantity of aircraft being sought, the budget has only shifted slightly. In its original tender notice, the MoD said the budget for the procurement – including training, spares and an initial five-year period of in-service support – was £900 million to £1.2 billion ($1.1-1.5 billion), excluding Value Added Tax (VAT) at 20%.

That figure has now fallen to a maximum of £1 billion, and now includes VAT, according to people familiar with the ITN.

However, the MoD insists none of its parameters have moved. “There has been no change to the NMH scope as advertised in the contract notice and the competition needs to conclude before contract deliverables and delivery dates can be confirmed,” it says.
Bids are due to be submitted by 30 August, leading to a contract award likely by the middle of 2025 with deliveries beginning within two years and running until around 2032.

However, with a general election due no later than January next year, followed by an inevitable strategic defence review – the opposition Labour party has already promised to conduct one within 12 months of taking office, should it be elected – that process could take longer than anticipated.

The exact specifications of the NMH are still undisclosed, but sources indicate a dedicated battlefield transport helicopter is being sought. In addition, the MoD is actively considering the potential to arm the platform beyond standard door guns, FlightGlobal understands.

Despite now being acquired for two different user groups, the MoD intends that all NMH aircraft will be able to perform either mission, ensuring interoperability across the fleet.

As the initial contract notice puts it: “NMH will provide a common medium-lift multirole helicopter, fitted for, but not with, specialist mission role equipment and able to operate in all environments in support of defence tasks.”

Should the maximum number of 32 aircraft be acquired, it would represent more than a like-for-like replacement, potentially creating the conditions to reactivate the AAC’s 657 Squadron – another special forces unit that was disbanded in 2018 with the retirement of the Lynx AH9A fleet.

Indeed, insiders suggest that the MoD has moved away from a position of attempting to acquire “exquisite capability” and is instead focused on quantity: “It’s about good enough, it’s about acquiring mass, by having something that can be developed through life to deal with emerging threats.

“There is also a focus around freedom of action, of onshore design, manufacture and support – and it has to be exportable. All that is writ large in the ITN.”

Contenders for the requirement are Airbus Helicopters, which is pitching the H175M, Leonardo Helicopters with the AW149, and Sikorsky with the S-70M.

All are to be assembled, to a greater or lesser extent, in the UK, addressing the MoD’s 25% weighting for domestic design, production and “social value” considerations.
 
Hood said:
Despite the lower quantity of aircraft being sought, the budget has only shifted slightly. In its original tender notice, the MoD said the budget for the procurement – including training, spares and an initial five-year period of in-service support – was £900 million to £1.2 billion ($1.1-1.5 billion), excluding Value Added Tax (VAT) at 20%.

That figure has now fallen to a maximum of £1 billion, and now includes VAT, according to people familiar with the ITN.
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So that's a maximum of 833mil GBP, excluding VAT.

That's a freaking 33% reduction in budget!!!!
 
None of this is a surprise. H145 is used in training so offers easy scope for transition and you dont need more for OCU etc. iirc some addittional 145s were acquired as the original training buy was far too small. Its not very good for the training role but they arent going to revisit that.

That deals with the permament overseas stuff.

As for Puma, there was always going to be a “battlefield” type selected that could take full HIDAS.

I just hope they go for Blackhawk. Feels like you’re getting into something that belongs on the battlefield and will get you where you want to go. 149/175 are civvy helos painted green and with some gibberish about ruggedising which is little more than some tweaked requirements and about as far from a Blackhawk as you can get.

The entire NMH is kinda pointless though. It reflefts we bought Wildcat which cant lift anything useful and we also have Merlin which is an incredibly overcomplicated way to move stuff, costing and taking up as much space as a Chinny which moves far more. It introduces yet another type, with a small fleet (20 airframes is nothing). When if we bin Puma we save that (ala C130).

Perspnally I’d just order/get hold of more Wildcats, Merlins and Chinnys to bolster those forces and use existing training and logistical lines. But that isnt cool enough and we like big new programs to suggest vision and so on. Plus its been a few years since Yeovil extracted their last cash grab so here we go again with yet another unsuitable aircraft (WAH64D, Wildcat, Merlin) to pour money into that black hole.

I half suspect this program may not survive although I dont think they’ll be able to pull a C130 on Puma in an election year. So probably kick it a couple of years to the right and let die with talk of the future projects. The invite to negotiate and reductions in numbers is code for doing that tbh.
 
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'fitted for, but not with' - sums up our government

Normally in my books I don't criticise governments/politicians for procurement decisions but In They Also Serve they get a wedgie. Clowns.

I'm off to the pub. Via the polling station.

Chris
 
norseman said:
The 149's are anything but, very capable and specifically military helicopter
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Nope. Its basically a 139/189 painted green with some tweaks to requirements. But not even that much in terms of tweaking - current customers have accepted this but we’ll see a growingly expensive program of mods and delays/cost if this civvy helicopter is picked for the UK.

It is a world away from the battlefield level of requirements and associated design that the Blackhawk has.

Its quick and easy evolution from the 189 should be more than evidence for that. Vs the Blackhawk’s gestation and T&E process.

For a start, who certificated it and what is it certificated against…
 

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