RAF Puma Replacement?

[Foo Fighter]

Paywall unfortunately.

 

[TomS]

Paywall unfortunately.

Try right clicking an opening on an Incognito tab (Chrome), or InPrivate tab (Edge), etc. Worked for me.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Thank you, open in private window in Firefox. I had not thought of that mate.

 

[Grey Havoc]

From the article:

Revealed on 1 November, the proposals laid out by General Micael Byden, head of the Swedish military, will see the country retire the NH90s operated by its armed forces for battlefield support and naval missions, replacing them respectively with additional Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks and a yet to be determined type.

Stockholm earlier in the year had commissioned a review into the performance of its NH90 fleet, particularly relating to upgrades required to bolster the type’s anti-submarine warfare capabilities. Availability issues with the troop transport variant have also been a concern.

On the back of that process, Byden’s plans call for it to “decommission” the HKP-14Es and -14Fs – Sweden’s designations for the NH90 troop transport and maritime helicopters – over the period from 2024 to 2030. The 18-strong fleet comprises nine of each version.

Under the proposals, Stockholm will begin the procurement of a new maritime helicopter in the 2024-2030 period, while also buying additional Black Hawks for the battlefield support role.

“The aim is to meet operational requirements earlier and increase availability of the helicopter fleet to be able to support the army, special forces and navy needs,” the plans indicate.

Retirement of the NH90 fleet will be completed by 2035 at the latest, in parallel with the acquisition of new Black Hawks, the document says.

 

[zebedee]

Leonardo are definitely going for the hearts and minds... was passing through Edinburgh earlier (17/11/22) and noted a very large Union Jack liveried AW149 on the side of one of the trams as part of a recruitment drive...

Zeb

 

[TomcatViP]

Airbus Helicopters appears to be keen on the acquisition of the UK’s Puma fleet for part-out when the helicopters leave service in the coming years, potentially adding a further dimension to its interest in NMH.

Christoph Zammert, executive vice-president customer support and services, says those assets would allow the manufacturer to keep other operators of the legacy type flying.

“Providing the price is right and the documentation there, we would be interested in buying them back.”

Airbus Helicopters has already acquired several civil rotorcraft – 13 H120s and three H135s – for dismantling, with its “harvest list” including dynamic components, landing gears and avionics equipment.

This sounds rather fishy. What's wrong here?

Airbus touts strong demand for H175M and eyes part-out potential of UK Pumas

Airbus Helicopters sees strong interest in the H175M - the military version of the super-medium-twin - and is already completing the integration of its HForce modular weapons system onto the platform. Meanwhile, its services and support arm is seeking inventory for part-out, and is already...

www.flightglobal.com

 

[yasotay]

Boeing shifts stance on prime contractor role for NMH

Boeing has shifted its approach to the UK's New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest and is no longer pursuing the requirement as a prime contractor, FlightGlobal understands.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[RavenOne]

Boeing shifts stance on prime contractor role for NMH

Boeing has shifted its approach to the UK's New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest and is no longer pursuing the requirement as a prime contractor, FlightGlobal understands.

www.flightglobal.com

Here si the official skinny

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-03-airbus-welcomes-boeing-to-h175m-task-force-for-uk-new-medium

Greetings from Heli EXpo 2023 in Atlanta.

cheers

 

[TomS]

Boeing shifts stance on prime contractor role for NMH

Boeing has shifted its approach to the UK's New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest and is no longer pursuing the requirement as a prime contractor, FlightGlobal understands.

www.flightglobal.com

Here si the official skinny

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-03-airbus-welcomes-boeing-to-h175m-task-force-for-uk-new-medium

Greetings from Heli EXpo 2023 in Atlanta.

cheers

Boeing and Airbus teaming together? Has that happened before?

 

[Moose]

Boeing shifts stance on prime contractor role for NMH

Boeing has shifted its approach to the UK's New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest and is no longer pursuing the requirement as a prime contractor, FlightGlobal understands.

www.flightglobal.com

Here si the official skinny

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2023-03-airbus-welcomes-boeing-to-h175m-task-force-for-uk-new-medium

Greetings from Heli EXpo 2023 in Atlanta.

cheers

Boeing and Airbus teaming together? Has that happened before?

The companies? Yes.

Boeing and Eurocopter To Build a Bigger Chinook?

Boeing and Eurocopter have agreed to cooperate on a future transport helicopter (FTH) and at the ILA Berlin Air Show both companies displayed a tandem-roto

www.google.com

This may be the first time they've had a major team-up since EC re-branded with the Airbus name, though.

 

[CJGibson]

I always thought it was Boeing-Vertol with a silent 'Boeing' as per BP-Amoco with a silent 'Amoco'.

ie Vertol was in charge of the chopper side of the business.

Chris

 

[yasotay]

This was true until Boeing bought MDc/Hughes helicopter. Never has there been a more devisive split in an industry. I have seen them sabotage briefings from their counterparts.

 

[Hood]

Let's not forget that this is Boeing Defence UK and it covers the training package, not a technical contribution. Boeing UK is a large training provider in the UK (amongst other things). It's subsidiary Aviation Training International Limited provides air crew, ground crew and maintenance training to for the AAC Apaches. Presumably they hope to add the H175 to AVTIL's contract portfolio.

Probably not a bad move on Airbus' part - it's a rerun of the Rotary Wing training contract under UKMFTS, they supply the hardware without any of the operational hassles.

 

[timmymagic]

Whatever happens, and lets face it.....it between Airbus and Leonardo....I hope the MoD absolutely nails down the competitors on the contract in terms of factory/production promises, too many times we've heard great promises and then years later silence...

Personally I hope Leonardo win, but we need to ensure that Leonardo's 'package' ensures the long term survival of UK helo making capability...

 

[yasotay]

AW149: Designed to Survive on the Modern Battlefield – Part 1

In the first of a two-part series analysing the AW149's survivability, we look at how the platform was designed with battlefield survivability in mind. There will be a focus on the airframe’s crashworthiness and minimised susceptibility to enemy fire, in addition to its unparalleled gearbox run...

uk.leonardo.com

AW149: Designed to Survive on the Modern Battlefield – Part 2

In the second of a two-part series analysing the survivability of Leonardo's latest-generation AW149 multi-role helicopter, we move beyond the airframe and the inner layers of the ‘Survivability Onion’. We will now focus on explaining how a reduced exhaust Infrared signature, next generation...

uk.leonardo.com

Sexy, sexiness from Leonardo. Seriously, some interesting information.

Having flown a 139 I will say that it is a fine flying helicopter. In fairness Airbus has some great platforms as well. Having done Blackhawks for some time, in a former life, I am partial to it as an assault platform, The UK has three great options to choose from.

 

[Pioneer]

This might have already been mentioned, but another important design capability of a S-70 Blackhawk derivative is its inherent ability to be air transportable (RAF C-17's) more than any other competitive design - especially given that the UK government/DOD seems obsessed with the Pacific AO and China overnight.......

Just an operational consideration.

Regards
Pioneer

What makes you think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders? I don't know about the H175M's air-portability, but the AW149 fits in anything that a Blackhawk can, and its shorter wheelbase makes it simpler to load.

"What makes me think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders" Jackonicko?
Well, Im working on the presumption that the Sikorsky Blackhawk was specifically designed from the get-go to meet the stringent UTTAS requirements of the US Army to be transportable by Lockheed C-130 Hercules, C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy. As such it has numerous components that simply fold up, as opposed to the need to disassemble. Do any of the other contenders have such a demand incorporated into their designs?

(P.S. granted, the attached picture is the YUH-61 prototype, which is folded to the C-130 Herc configuration. But this design requirement, even though suspended, still allowed the Blackhawk to have better air-transportability than any other assault transport helicopter Im aware of.)

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Jackonicko]

This might have already been mentioned, but another important design capability of a S-70 Blackhawk derivative is its inherent ability to be air transportable (RAF C-17's) more than any other competitive design - especially given that the UK government/DOD seems obsessed with the Pacific AO and China overnight.......

Just an operational consideration.

Regards
Pioneer

What makes you think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders? I don't know about the H175M's air-portability, but the AW149 fits in anything that a Blackhawk can, and its shorter wheelbase makes it simpler to load.

"What makes me think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders" Jackonicko?
Well, Im working on the presumption that the Sikorsky Blackhawk was specifically designed from the get-go to meet the stringent UTTAS requirements of the US Army to be transportable by Lockheed C-130 Hercules, C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy. As such it has numerous components that simply fold up, as opposed to the need to disassemble. Do any of the other contenders have such a demand incorporated into their designs?

(P.S. granted, the attached picture is the YUH-61 prototype, which is folded to the C-130 Herc configuration. But this design requirement, even though suspended, still allowed the Blackhawk to have better air-transportability than any other assault transport helicopter Im aware of.)

Regards
Pioneer

That's quite a presumption you're working on, Pioneer. The S-70 Blackhawk will only fit in a C-130 if the rotor head assembly is removed. Because of this, Sikorsky had to get a waiver in the UTTAS fly-off!

The AW149 fits in an A400 or C-17 with LESS disassembly than a Blackhawk.

Though Leonardo won't talk about their existing AW149 military operator it is known that Egypt's AW149s routinely operate from the Mistral class landing ships, suggesting that they 'fold' sufficiently to use elevators, etc.

 

[Pioneer]

This might have already been mentioned, but another important design capability of a S-70 Blackhawk derivative is its inherent ability to be air transportable (RAF C-17's) more than any other competitive design - especially given that the UK government/DOD seems obsessed with the Pacific AO and China overnight.......

Just an operational consideration.

Regards
Pioneer

What makes you think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders? I don't know about the H175M's air-portability, but the AW149 fits in anything that a Blackhawk can, and its shorter wheelbase makes it simpler to load.

"What makes me think that the Blackhawk is more air transportable than any of the other contenders" Jackonicko?
Well, Im working on the presumption that the Sikorsky Blackhawk was specifically designed from the get-go to meet the stringent UTTAS requirements of the US Army to be transportable by Lockheed C-130 Hercules, C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy. As such it has numerous components that simply fold up, as opposed to the need to disassemble. Do any of the other contenders have such a demand incorporated into their designs?

(P.S. granted, the attached picture is the YUH-61 prototype, which is folded to the C-130 Herc configuration. But this design requirement, even though suspended, still allowed the Blackhawk to have better air-transportability than any other assault transport helicopter Im aware of.)

Regards
Pioneer

That's quite a presumption you're working on, Pioneer. The S-70 Blackhawk will only fit in a C-130 if the rotor head assembly is removed. Because of this, Sikorsky had to get a waiver in the UTTAS fly-off!

The AW149 fits in an A400 or C-17 with LESS disassembly than a Blackhawk.

Though Leonardo won't talk about their existing AW149 military operator it is known that Egypt's AW149s routinely operate from the Mistral class landing ships, suggesting that they 'fold' sufficiently to use elevators, etc.

Yes, a presumption. I never claimed my analogy was concrete.
Thank you for providing further info.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[rexxsimba]

I find it amazing that , with the possible exception of DARPA ..
No major Aircraft manufucturer appears willing to develop this amazing heliplane concept ...

- Cheaper and Less complicated to produce , maintain , operate and market.
- Requires only Football pitch size uncomplicated Infrastructure or Stolports for operations.
- Amazing Safety and Environmental advantages.

I would appreciate some views or inputs ...
Rexx Simba.

 

[dan_inbox]

Unbearably noisy, like all the blade-tip-exhaust rotors.
Uneconomic.

 

[yasotay]

Sadly have to agree that modern conditions make the platform undesirable in the market. It's best function would, in my opinion, have been city center to city center, bypassing the airport congestion. All attempts at this have failed to date with helicopters, etc. Even had it found the market willing to invest, modern urbanites are not liking more noise. Unfortunate as I really liked the platform.

 

[RavenOne]

OOps, Puma retirement to be stretched to 2027/2028

RAF Puma helicopter fleet could soldier on until 2028

The UK could push back the retirement of the Royal Air Force's fleet of Puma HC2 transport helicopters to 2027 or even 2028 amid slow progress acquiring a replacement.

www.flightglobal.com

cheers

 

[Hood]

I am shocked I tells ya!

2027-28 is getting close to Merlin replacement time so maybe they will try to kill several birds with the same stone. It is frustrating though when off-the-shelf stuff is there and when there is a chance to actually buy something that might work and not end up as another "MOD effed it up" headline story.

 

[yasotay]

I am shocked I tells ya!

2027-28 is getting close to Merlin replacement time so maybe they will try to kill several birds with the same stone. It is frustrating though when off-the-shelf stuff is there and when there is a chance to actually buy something that might work and not end up as another "MOD effed it up" headline story.

It does seem a bit of a tradition. Of course we have our own issues on this side of the pond, espescially with reconnaissance helicopters.

 

[robunos]

I am shocked I tells ya!

2027-28 is getting close to Merlin replacement time so maybe they will try to kill several birds with the same stone. It is frustrating though when off-the-shelf stuff is there and when there is a chance to actually buy something that might work and not end up as another "MOD effed it up" headline story.

I wonder . . . 2028 should be the election after next, is the RAF thinking '2024, Labour get in, defence cuts, so Puma Replacement chopped, leave it until 2028, hope for Tory victory, then combine Puma / Merlin replacement, 'two for the price of one, Prime Minister, honest . . .'.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[kaiserd]

I am shocked I tells ya!

2027-28 is getting close to Merlin replacement time so maybe they will try to kill several birds with the same stone. It is frustrating though when off-the-shelf stuff is there and when there is a chance to actually buy something that might work and not end up as another "MOD effed it up" headline story.

I wonder . . . 2028 should be the election after next, is the RAF thinking '2024, Labour get in, defence cuts, so Puma Replacement chopped, leave it until 2028, hope for Tory victory, then combine Puma / Merlin replacement, 'two for the price of one, Prime Minister, honest . . .'.

cheers,
Robin.

Don’t think this is a party political issue.
Both main UK political parties are well practised at defence cuts, it’s just one of them (Tories) is rather more practised at promising increased defence attention/ focus and budgets, and then ends up cutting them in practice anyway.

A wider issue is that irrespective of which party is in power in the UK the underlying economic forecasts and spending plans structure (a lot of planned general spending cuts are back loaded, almost like the relevant party doesn’t expect to still be power at that point) don’t look good for further increases in defensive spending for projects like this,

 

[uk 75]

The Pumas live near me at RAF Benson. I suspect they will be there for many more years.
It is ironic that a previous attempt to replace them with Blackhawks is now almost forty years ago under a Tory government.
The Puma entered service when I was at school and may well see me out!

 

[TomcatViP]

Emirates canceled orders of Caracal might have left some good opportunities to aquire supplementary airframe. Pure speculation, obviously.

I hope they will refine their specifications to make it more clear for the industry.

But let's admit, no Hercule, old Puma... It doesn't sound good for British mobility.

 

[robunos]

I am shocked I tells ya!

2027-28 is getting close to Merlin replacement time so maybe they will try to kill several birds with the same stone. It is frustrating though when off-the-shelf stuff is there and when there is a chance to actually buy something that might work and not end up as another "MOD effed it up" headline story.

I wonder . . . 2028 should be the election after next, is the RAF thinking '2024, Labour get in, defence cuts, so Puma Replacement chopped, leave it until 2028, hope for Tory victory, then combine Puma / Merlin replacement, 'two for the price of one, Prime Minister, honest . . .'.

cheers,
Robin.

Don’t think this is a party political issue.
Both main UK political parties are well practised at defence cuts, it’s just one of them (Tories) is rather more practised at promising increased defence attention/ focus and budgets, and then ends up cutting them in practice anyway.

A wider issue is that irrespective of which party is in power in the UK the underlying economic forecasts and spending plans structure (a lot of planned general spending cuts are back loaded, almost like the relevant party doesn’t expect to still be power at that point) don’t look good for further increases in defensive spending for projects like this,

My thrust was, by waiting until both Puma and Merlin need replacing, and proposing a common replacement for both airframes, the Service can play on the economies of scale that this would produce.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[SteveO]

I guess the plan is to let all the people who know how to build helicopters in the UK find another job or retire and then order some. It worked well with armoured vehicle, ship and submarine building!

 

[zebedee]

I guess the plan is to let all the people who know how to build helicopters in the UK find another job or retire and then order some. It worked well with armoured vehicle, ship and submarine building!

You forgot the bit about selling the factories to developers for housing/offices/retail parks... always had a suspicion that BAe made more money selling factories than they did selling aircraft...

Zeb

 

[TomcatViP]

Emirates canceled orders of Caracal might have left some good opportunities to aquire supplementary airframe. Pure speculation, obviously.

I hope they will refine their specifications to make it more clear for the industry.

But let's admit, no Hercule, old Puma... It doesn't sound good for British mobility.

Well too late: Netherland was quick to grab them (my guess only). See below (12 Caracal for Netherland SoC):

Les forces spéciales néerlandaises voleront sur Caracal - FOB - Forces Operations Blog

Joli succès pour Airbus Helicopters, qui fournira 14 hélicoptères H225M Caracal aux forces spéciales néerlandaises et continue une histoire entamée il y a près de trois décennies avec le Cougar. Le montant du marché n'a pas été détaillé par le ministère de la Défense.

www.forcesoperations.com

 

[alertken]

zeb: BAe as a Land Bank. No suspicion, specific purpose. Govt unloaded Royal Ordnance and Rover Group to them solely, specifically so. They set up a Property Manager, Arlington, initially to handle Saudi Air Defence Scheme infrastructure, then bought Liverpool Airport (?!).

The A in their name lost any meaning decades ago.

 

[CJGibson]

My thrust was, by waiting until both Puma and Merlin need replacing, and proposing a common replacement for both airframes, the Service can play on the economies of scale that this would produce.

cheers,
Robin.

Robin, you know better than spout such nonsense. A joint requirement? Economies of scale? Oooooh! Me sides! Me sides! They've split like Bill Werbernuik's trousers.

Chris

 

[Hood]

zeb: BAe as a Land Bank. No suspicion, specific purpose. Govt unloaded Royal Ordnance and Rover Group to them solely, specifically so. They set up a Property Manager, Arlington, initially to handle Saudi Air Defence System infrastructure, then bought Liverpool Airport (?!).

The A in their name lost any meaning decades ago.

Arlington Securities was sold though in 2001 as part of the divestment of all its non-defence assets (to raise a cool £1bn) as BAE Systems became a defence behemoth that didn't need to tinker around in other areas.

Arlington Securities had originally been developers of business parks - including the pioneering Aztec West just outside Bristol which Arlington brought in 1987 - the same year BAe brought Arlington for £278M to diversify its portfolio and to help regenerate its surplus sites, for example it was Arlington that redeveloped Hatfield from factory/airfield into a business park and housing. Arlington also built the new BAe HQ at Farnborough in 1992.

BAe also had a stake in Bristol airport (logically enough). I've seen mention that they had interests in the Dutch construction industry too! There are still property interests, BAE Systems Properties Ltd is the successor to British Aerospace Properties Ltd which was set up in 1993.

 

[robunos]

My thrust was, by waiting until both Puma and Merlin need replacing, and proposing a common replacement for both airframes, the Service can play on the economies of scale that this would produce.

cheers,
Robin.

Robin, you know better than spout such nonsense. A joint requirement? Economies of scale? Oooooh! Me sides! Me sides! They've split like Bill Werbernuik's trousers.

Chris

I'm just scratching around looking for things the military could use to stop any programme from being cancelled by HMG on cost grounds, now that the 'add a clause to the contract to make cancellation more expensive than continuation' trick has been used and therefore known about . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[CJGibson]

They pulled that one to get Chinooks.

Chris

 

[robunos]

They pulled that one to get Chinooks.

Chris

Didn't know that, I was thinking of 'Big Lizzie' and PoW . . .

cheers,
Robin.

 

[uk 75]

I'm a bit of a heretic on this one. The Pumas still do most of what is required (the RAF passed the Merlins on to the RN) and there are plenty of Chinooks to do anything heavy.
.
None of the options raised here would have me dipping my hand in my pocket.

 

[Hood]

I honestly think the next defence review will kick it into the long grass - the NATO Medium Helicopter and FVL coming on stream in the 2030s is going to look much more attractive rather than getting a stopgap now that might look dated by then.
Looking into my crystal ball I reckon they will can the Merlin in favour of drones for ASW and AEW, leaving just the transport role and special ops support for the RAF which would favour the bigger/fancier concepts coming on stream.