NASA Space Launch System (SLS)

You're assuming Lunar Starship works--Artemis is not Starship and Starship is not Artemis
Throwing my phrasing back at me isn’t an argument, it’s just you being irritated. What controls costs and improves success for NASA, publiusr? Competition. If Artemis’s success is more important to you than the SLS, as it should be, it shouldn’t be such a blow to your ego if there’s more than one way to get people to the Moon. It bothers me not at all if there’s more than one lunar lander. As I wrote: I want to see Artemis grow enough that NASA needs more than just Starship and Blue Moon.
 
Old Space is about making space a vested interest to as many folks as possible such that legacy companies don't need wars to be profitable. New Space is concerned with prices.

One brings space to people
The other brings people to space

Both valid.

SLS did what it was supposed to right off the bat. When Starship itself is caught by chopsticks, get back to me.
 
To be as pithy: when the SLS is reusable, inexpensive, and something aside from a jobs program intended to line Boeing’s pockets: get back to me.

publiusr, I genuinely do not understand why you cling to the SLS so tightly. By design it can never open the frontier of space. Everything about it militates against that. At its most optimistic best it’s outclassed by extant and near-term rockets in terms of payload to the Moon per year. There’s plenty for the people building it to do that doesn’t involve expendable rockets. What is it that makes you so defensive? I can’t imagine being half as defensive about Starship.
 
Never open the frontier--it has already placed a capsule beyond any Dragon so far.

I like it because it is a stage-and-a-half-to-orbit rocket similar (minus SRBs) to Atlas...burn to orbit in one core.

That was simple enough even Boeing couldn't screw it up.

This is what I meant when I said each company should build the other guys rockets.

SuperHeavy SpaceX has mastered.
Starship? That's something that would have been challenging for Boeing at the height of their competency--which sadly was long before the tech in it now.

On the other hand I think Elon could have knocked out cheap stage-and-a-half SHLVs to the point Starlink would have been filled out before any political actions could hobble it.

But I don't script the multiverse.
 
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Think about it. Orion carries four people, and Artemis flights won’t cost much less than four billion apiece for the first ten flights, as contracts are already signed. Optimistically Artemis V flies by 2030; that means a mere ten people on the lunar surface by then, for a total program cost of around $150 billion at that point, not including obfuscated costs such as ones carried over from Constellation, or the SSME’s original development. That’s well over fifty percent of what we spent on Apollo, when everything was new and it all had to be invented from scratch, in addition to building all the infrastructure necessary. That’s not opening the frontier. For that much money we should have a functional base on the lunar surface with a half dozen flights or more yearly. There is no future where Congress will ever give NASA enough money to fly six Orions to the Moon per year on top of a Mars program and launching big probes and telescopes. Certainly not as the private sector develops orbital refueling, on-orbit assembly, ISRU, and multiple reusable LVs. There’s so much coming that can greatly expand our capabilities; to glom into the SLS and ignore everything else - or overstate its difficulty - is a sign of fear of the future, not even reasoned skepticism. We would desire all of it anyway even if the SLS were the pinnacle of space launch.
 
Webb was expensive too. I just think SLS is also worth its costs.

I actually want SLS more as a modern day Titan IV on steroids for missions like this:

Interstellar Precursor---things that could benefit from hydrogen NTRs

I actually need Starship to take manned spaceflight off my hands for Super Probe missions to have SLS available--so we really aren't at cross purposes.

Starship just worries me....not out of any concern that it will be an SLS replacement--.

--but that it won't.

Now if the feds would just get out of Elon's way.

Starship's bane may not be spelled "SLS" but "FAA"
 
Webb was expensive too. I just think SLS is also worth its costs.
Webb‘s price tag does not justify the SLS.

I actually want SLS more as a modern day Titan IV on steroids for missions like this:

Interstellar Precursor---things that could benefit from hydrogen NTRs
Why? What’s the point, when we will have a plethora of technologies that would enable larger, more complex missions for less money? Is the purpose of a national program to drum up business for the SLS, or is it to explore the solar system (and the universe)? I mean genuine exploration, too - not the namby-pamby, paltry thing we call exploration today, which isn't worthy of the name. Our technologies should serve our goals, not the other way around.

The civilian sector is baselining ammonia, not hydrogen, but it’s unlikely that there will be any flights out that far before we’ve developed better propulsion. Even if we didn’t, hydrogen can be launched by New Glenn, Vulcan, and in the future, sourced from the Moon and asteroids. The SLS isn’t necessary, and there’s no fairing yet anyway, nor will there be for many years - perhaps ever.

I actually need Starship to take manned spaceflight off my hands for Super Probe missions to have SLS available--so we really aren't at cross purposes.

Starship just worries me....not out of any concern that it will be an SLS replacement--.

--but that it won't.
For Starship to become a viable manned spacecraft, especially for Mars flights, it will require reliability and launch rates well in excess of the SLS's (before we mention price). What scientist is going to want to wait five or ten years (or more) for an SLS to be available if there's a Starship, New Glenn, Vulcan, Terran R, Neutron, or MLV flight available sooner at much lower cost? Scientists will either redesign their missions to fit available launch vehicles and budgets, or they won't go at all. The SLS lost Europa Clipper for multiple reasons, all of them good and cogent.

Now if the feds would just get out of Elon's way.

Starship's bane may not be spelled "SLS" but "FAA"
That has no bearing on Starship's technical aspects.
 
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I just think SLS is also worth its costs.
Which is an uninformed and biased opinion.
There is nothing about it that justifies its costs. It brings little usable capability to the table. It is no better than most other earmarks.
The US would be better off flushing the money down the drain.
 

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