NASA Space Launch System (SLS)

They are two seperate things, Artemis is a program to land on the Moon then Mars, I take it that when Starship is finally ready it will be part of the wider Artemis Program.
 
You're assuming Lunar Starship works--Artemis is not Starship and Starship is not Artemis
Throwing my phrasing back at me isn’t an argument, it’s just you being irritated. What controls costs and improves success for NASA, publiusr? Competition. If Artemis’s success is more important to you than the SLS, as it should be, it shouldn’t be such a blow to your ego if there’s more than one way to get people to the Moon. It bothers me not at all if there’s more than one lunar lander. As I wrote: I want to see Artemis grow enough that NASA needs more than just Starship and Blue Moon.
 
Old Space is about making space a vested interest to as many folks as possible such that legacy companies don't need wars to be profitable. New Space is concerned with prices.

One brings space to people
The other brings people to space

Both valid.

SLS did what it was supposed to right off the bat. When Starship itself is caught by chopsticks, get back to me.
 
To be as pithy: when the SLS is reusable, inexpensive, and something aside from a jobs program intended to line Boeing’s pockets: get back to me.

publiusr, I genuinely do not understand why you cling to the SLS so tightly. By design it can never open the frontier of space. Everything about it militates against that. At its most optimistic best it’s outclassed by extant and near-term rockets in terms of payload to the Moon per year. There’s plenty for the people building it to do that doesn’t involve expendable rockets. What is it that makes you so defensive? I can’t imagine being half as defensive about Starship.
 
Never open the frontier--it has already placed a capsule beyond any Dragon so far.

I like it because it is a stage-and-a-half-to-orbit rocket similar (minus SRBs) to Atlas...burn to orbit in one core.

That was simple enough even Boeing couldn't screw it up.

This is what I meant when I said each company should build the other guys rockets.

SuperHeavy SpaceX has mastered.
Starship? That's something that would have been challenging for Boeing at the height of their competency--which sadly was long before the tech in it now.

On the other hand I think Elon could have knocked out cheap stage-and-a-half SHLVs to the point Starlink would have been filled out before any political actions could hobble it.

But I don't script the multiverse.
 
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Think about it. Orion carries four people, and Artemis flights won’t cost much less than four billion apiece for the first ten flights, as contracts are already signed. Optimistically Artemis V flies by 2030; that means a mere ten people on the lunar surface by then, for a total program cost of around $150 billion at that point, not including obfuscated costs such as ones carried over from Constellation, or the SSME’s original development. That’s well over fifty percent of what we spent on Apollo, when everything was new and it all had to be invented from scratch, in addition to building all the infrastructure necessary. That’s not opening the frontier. For that much money we should have a functional base on the lunar surface with a half dozen flights or more yearly. There is no future where Congress will ever give NASA enough money to fly six Orions to the Moon per year on top of a Mars program and launching big probes and telescopes. Certainly not as the private sector develops orbital refueling, on-orbit assembly, ISRU, and multiple reusable LVs. There’s so much coming that can greatly expand our capabilities; to glom into the SLS and ignore everything else - or overstate its difficulty - is a sign of fear of the future, not even reasoned skepticism. We would desire all of it anyway even if the SLS were the pinnacle of space launch.
 
Webb was expensive too. I just think SLS is also worth its costs.

I actually want SLS more as a modern day Titan IV on steroids for missions like this:

Interstellar Precursor---things that could benefit from hydrogen NTRs

I actually need Starship to take manned spaceflight off my hands for Super Probe missions to have SLS available--so we really aren't at cross purposes.

Starship just worries me....not out of any concern that it will be an SLS replacement--.

--but that it won't.

Now if the feds would just get out of Elon's way.

Starship's bane may not be spelled "SLS" but "FAA"
 
Webb was expensive too. I just think SLS is also worth its costs.
Webb‘s price tag does not justify the SLS.

I actually want SLS more as a modern day Titan IV on steroids for missions like this:

Interstellar Precursor---things that could benefit from hydrogen NTRs
Why? What’s the point, when we will have a plethora of technologies that would enable larger, more complex missions for less money? Is the purpose of a national program to drum up business for the SLS, or is it to explore the solar system (and the universe)? I mean genuine exploration, too - not the namby-pamby, paltry thing we call exploration today, which isn't worthy of the name. Our technologies should serve our goals, not the other way around.

The civilian sector is baselining ammonia, not hydrogen, but it’s unlikely that there will be any flights out that far before we’ve developed better propulsion. Even if we didn’t, hydrogen can be launched by New Glenn, Vulcan, and in the future, sourced from the Moon and asteroids. The SLS isn’t necessary, and there’s no fairing yet anyway, nor will there be for many years - perhaps ever.

I actually need Starship to take manned spaceflight off my hands for Super Probe missions to have SLS available--so we really aren't at cross purposes.

Starship just worries me....not out of any concern that it will be an SLS replacement--.

--but that it won't.
For Starship to become a viable manned spacecraft, especially for Mars flights, it will require reliability and launch rates well in excess of the SLS's (before we mention price). What scientist is going to want to wait five or ten years (or more) for an SLS to be available if there's a Starship, New Glenn, Vulcan, Terran R, Neutron, or MLV flight available sooner at much lower cost? Scientists will either redesign their missions to fit available launch vehicles and budgets, or they won't go at all. The SLS lost Europa Clipper for multiple reasons, all of them good and cogent.

Now if the feds would just get out of Elon's way.

Starship's bane may not be spelled "SLS" but "FAA"
That has no bearing on Starship's technical aspects.
 
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I just think SLS is also worth its costs.
Which is an uninformed and biased opinion.
There is nothing about it that justifies its costs. It brings little usable capability to the table. It is no better than most other earmarks.
The US would be better off flushing the money down the drain.
 
Bloomberg calls for cancellation of the SLS rocket
He criticized the delay and far over budget SLS program with $24 billion.
Special that each SLS cost $4 billion and only launch every 2 years
Compare to $4 billion Starship program of SpaceX with 5 launches and one recover booster

 
I've always been a big fan of NASA but they have lost their way completely. They should continue with their deep space probes and use the remainder of their budget as a Shark Tank-style supporter of promising commercial startups.
There, I solved it.
 
Agreed. Too sad. Boeing breaks my heart but that hell is temporary. Someone will slap them back into shape eventually. But NASA, I don't know what will ever come of that. Perhaps nothing. Like the VA or DMV. discrimine et aeternum, is that right? Forever in crises.
 
I've always been a big fan of NASA but they have lost their way completely. They should continue with their deep space probes and use the remainder of their budget as a Shark Tank-style supporter of promising commercial startups.
There, I solved it.


Agreed. Too sad. Boeing breaks my heart but that hell is temporary. Someone will slap them back into shape eventually. But NASA, I don't know what will ever come of that. Perhaps nothing. Like the VA or DMV. discrimine et aeternum, is that right? Forever in crises.
NASA is not monolithic. SLS is a fraction of what NASA does.
 
New SLS/Artemis update from Phillip Sloss:


In this video recap of Artemis news from the past week, I'll cover Bechtel's assembly of the Mobile Launcher-2 umbilical tower "chair" structure. The chair is the base of the tower and it connects to the ML-2 launch platform or "base."
The NASA SLS Stages Element office manages the Core Stage of the vehicle and they provided updates in both visual and interview form. I'll go over the new footage from New Orleans and Michoud Assembly Facility of the Artemis III build and provide initial takeaways from the interview with SLS Stages manager Steve Wofford.
During the week NASA also provided imagery of recent training and site visits by the Artemis II flight crew; the video covers Orion side hatch training and a visit to the Northrop Grumman facility where the SLS solid rocket booster assemblies are processed.
Imagery is courtesy of NASA, except where noted.
00:00 Intro
00:57 SLS Core Stage-3 LOX tank processing continues
04:32 Initial takeaways from interview with NASA SLS Stages Element manager Steve Wofford
07:51 Mobile Launcher-2 construction milestone: assembly of the umbilical tower "chair"
09:35 A short-ish Gateway schedule update on HALO assembly and test...and a non-update
11:47 Other news and notes: Artemis II flight crew training and site visits
14:20 The big picture: waiting for big decisions, announcements, updates
17:31 Thanks for watching!
 
Phillip Sloss has a new status update for the SLS including how Trump's reelection may possibly effect the programme:


Everyone is waiting to see what plans are in store for the second President Trump term after he was re-elected, but it's less than a week since Election Day; in the meantime, I'll recap my recent interview with NASA SLS Stages manager Steve Wofford. Boeing has completed the first two stage units and handed them over to NASA, so I asked about the current production status for the next three builds. NASA has two of them fully under contract, so I asked how the next one, the fifth unit, is being contracted.
I also go over a couple of non-election news items: SpaceX announced a target launch date for the next Starship flight test and apparently has decided not to lease High Bay 1 in the Vehicle Assembly Building at Kennedy Space Center.
Couple of footnotes:
1. Adding a link in the video to the NSF story ended up being more distracting than it was worth; the link is in the description below.
2. In the video, I refer to "Michoud," which is NASA's Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans. That's the primary production site for SLS stages.
Imagery is courtesy of NASA, except where noted.
00:00 Intro
00:33 Recap of interview with NASA SLS Stages Element manager Steve Wofford
01:42 Restarting production of Core Stage main propulsion system components
08:40 Core Stage-3 production status
14:12 Core Stage-4 production status
18:49 When is Core Stage-5 engine section production going to start?
23:25 News and notes for the week, Trump re-elected
24:14 Starship flight test 6 target launch date announced
24:53 VAB High Bay 1 commercial lease status
27:10 Thanks for watching!
 
Phillip Sloss has a video out about what Musk and Trump may have planned for the SLS and Artemis programme:


NASA could soon be looking at another complication to their lunar landing plans, with the different Artemis Moon to Mars programs up for review by the incoming Trump administration. The second term promises to be different in many ways, beginning with it being the only non-consecutive one since Presidential term limits were enacted.
More importantly to NASA and Artemis, Elon Musk is advising Trump on the transition and beyond. Given the implications of the SpaceX founder advising Trump on NASA policy, this video is likely the first episode in what could end up being a big story into and through 2025.
Nothing has happened yet and there are no guaranteed outcomes, but given the personalities involved, it's hard to ignore the possibility of big changes. For now, I'll take a first look at why one would think Trump and Musk would want to make changes, what happened to five years ago during Trump's first term just as the Artemis branding was announced, some differences between then and now, and how messy drastic changes could get.
Imagery is courtesy of NASA, except where noted.
00:00 Intro
01:57 "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- What do Musk and Trump think?
03:45 Different political situation than with the SLS cancellation attempt in Trump's first term
07:46 Current Artemis situation: two halves don't make a whole, not yet
09:40 Potential changes, potential implications, potential complications
14:36 Thanks for watching!
 
50/50 that SLS goes completely away.

View: https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1856522880143745133

View: https://x.com/djsnm/status/1856537069037990108


Obvious answer:
ICPS is a ULA design, so they already know the relevant Orion interfaces.
Putting Orion on Vulcan means that there's no need to spend the effort on putting Starliner on Vulcan

View: https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1856538263915225194


My sense is that the solution would be launching Orion on one rocket (probably FH, from 39A) and then docking with a (separately launched) Centaur V and boosting it to the Moon.
 
It’s still a fight with Congress even if Trump’s White House zeroes out the SLS from its space proposals, but if true, that’s big news, and to me, an indication the US will take spaceflight more seriously than it has in a long time.
 
my note:
1) lack of negative reactions make it clear that people don’t really care about Artemis 2, and most see it only as a stunt on the way to A3, so much for the touted return to the moon…

2) I now think there’s a significant chance China sends crew to cislunar space before America does it back (landing is still overwhelmingly in favour of NASA tho)
 
1) lack of negative reactions make it clear that people don’t really care about Artemis 2, and most see it only as a stunt on the way to A3, so much for the touted return to the moon…

Artemis II is not a stunt as it is necessary to pave the way for Artemis III and if carried out would be a big PR win for NASA and the USA (Not to mention a certain orange Bloviator-in-Chief).

I don't see the SLS being cancelled in the near term due to pork-barrel politics.
 
Artemis II is not a stunt as it is necessary to pave the way for Artemis III and if carried out would be a big PR win for NASA and the USA (Not to mention a certain orange Bloviator-in-Chief).

I don't see the SLS being cancelled in the near term due to pork-barrel politics.
In my opinion the outcome will depend on the orion heatshield decision.
If it results in significant delay then SLS is likely to be entirely cancelled..

It it doesn't then I think they can launch Artemis II, the rumors are that the SLS teams took the initiative to begin stacking before the Orion heatshield decision because of the election results, furthermore the 2025 budget of SLS is likely to be safe. I think if they can show a ready launcher relatively soon in 2025 ahead of a Artemis II's launch in the end of 2025 or early 2026, it'll resist cancellation attempts for Artemis II. Nobody there wants to cancel a launcher that's literally assembled.
 
I think you'd definitely see Artemis II and III fly, with a strong possibility of Artemis IV flying if there's a programme cancellation however one thing that's likely to prevent cancellation in the short term is Trump's vanity. He wants to have his Nixon moment too in being able to phone the Artemis III astronauts after they land on the Moon just like what happened with Armstrong and Aldrin after they landed on the Moon (Trump would no doubt want to telephone the Artemis II astronauts once they reach Moon orbit).
 
Let's face it
SLS program is over budget, far behind schedule, quality control issue in manufacture.
Push political to finance US states aerospace industry.
The entire program cost $32billion until first launch, with launch cost of $2.5 billion.

In contrast the Entire Starship program has cost $4 billion and made 5 flight test (15 November)

SLS main contractor Boeing is in big trouble, quality control issue in manufacture and products, drug abuse under Workers, strikes...
and now come second term of Trump, who had some issue with Boeing about the extrem cost on Airforce One in 2016.
with Starliner, 737/777Max disaster and SLS issue, Boeing need good Lobbyist otherwise: Game Over, Man, Game Over...
 
Don´t forget that Boeing DID in effect test their vehicle successfully around the moon and back, even following an innovative orbital trajectory...
We can all only be appealed by the high cost and slow path of that program, but we should not oppose them SpaceX achievements while dismissing entirely their own.
 
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Don´t forget that Boeing DID in effect their test vehicle successfully around the moon and back, even following an innovative orbital trajectory...
We can all be only appealed by the cost and slow path of that program but we can´t oppose them SpaceX achievements dismissing entirely their own.
It wasn't Boeing but LM. LM builds Orion.
 
My money is on SpaceX building a Starship derivative to put both the European Service Module and Orion Capsule on top.

No orbital refueling required. One launch. Basically the whole cargo area of the Starship upper stage would be removed and a tapered adaptor sits on top to connect the ESM and Orion. As the ESM uses hypergolic fuel no extra fueling hoses are needed on the launch tower.

To optimise the Starship derivative for TLI SpaceX would want to increase the size of the upper stage relative to the Super Heavy booster. This allows Super Heavy to finish at the same distance to the launch site and the extra velocity entirely comes from the larger upper stage. Super Heavy booster can be reused with each flight and the upper stage is disposed of.

Starship V3 which is planned to fly in 2 years time would not only be able to send the ESM and Orion Capsule to the moon but it would have 40-50 ton of payload to carry a small moon lander. This would allow the whole lunar gateway to be cancelled and we return to a similar system to Apollo.
 
My money is on SpaceX building a Starship derivative to put both the European Service Module and Orion Capsule on top.

No orbital refueling required. One launch. Basically the whole cargo area of the Starship upper stage would be removed and a tapered adaptor sits on top to connect the ESM and Orion. As the ESM uses hypergolic fuel no extra fueling hoses are needed on the launch tower.

To optimise the Starship derivative for TLI SpaceX would want to increase the size of the upper stage relative to the Super Heavy booster. This allows Super Heavy to finish at the same distance to the launch site and the extra velocity entirely comes from the larger upper stage. Super Heavy booster can be reused with each flight and the upper stage is disposed of.

Starship V3 which is planned to fly in 2 years time would not only be able to send the ESM and Orion Capsule to the moon but it would have 40-50 ton of payload to carry a small moon lander. This would allow the whole lunar gateway to be cancelled and we return to a similar system to Apollo.
That will never happen. There is no point to it.
 

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