Messerschmitt Me 309 Development & Politics by Dan Sharp and Calum E. Douglas

[newsdeskdan]

I was referring to the rather interestingly similar physical characteristics of the Me 309 and Ta 152 ( C version rather than H), such as higher wing loading than was standard, the same engine, unusually heavy armament for the time, and pilot protection. My thought is that the Ta 152 actually had similar features to the Me 309, i.e. the concept was not completely abandoned but changed into the Ta 152. But thank you very much for the history of the choice between the Me 209 and the Ta 153/Fw 190D

The underlying theme is economy - how do you get a DB 603/Jumo 213 vehicle while retaining as many existing parts as possible?
Me 309 = Probably fewer than 5% existing parts
Me 209 = 50% existing parts
Ta 152 (in original concept) = 90% existing parts

But if use of existing parts was not a factor, then yes, the Ta 152 was intended to do basically the exact same job as the Me 309. Same engine, same armament etc. So if the jigs could've been built, if Messerschmitt had done the testing, if the radiator had been switched from ventral/retractable to the annular nose type planned for the Me 209 circa early 1943, then the Luftwaffe could've had - in theory - something with Ta 152 capability somewhat earlier and in much greater quantity. Exactly how much earlier and in how much greater quantity would've been the deciding factors in terms of whether that actually made any difference to anything.

You might say that a similar situation existed with the Do 335. Up until Jan 1943, the leading design in the Schnellbomber competition was the Me 109 Z - something very similar in concept to the (successful) F-82 Twin Mustang. Arguably the key deciding factor here should have been economy. The Me 109 Z was largely existing parts whereas the Do 335 was all-new.

However, instead of choosing (as they did in August 1943 with the Ta 152) to pick the parts bin special, they opted for the all-new design - since the performance advantages were apparently too tantalysing to pass up. Had they gone with the Me 109 Z instead, they would perhaps have had their own 'F-82' built in quantity and in front line use some time before the end of the war.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The Ta 154? Failure.

To be fair, that was a promising design undone by the RAF managing to clobber a glue factory, of all things (For the want of a nail...).

 

[newsdeskdan]

To be fair, that was a promising design undone by the RAF managing to clobber a glue factory, of all things (For the want of a nail...).

It seems Tank solved the glue problem in fairly short order (although Conradis, who was there, categorically attributes the Ta 154's cancellation to the bombed glue factory in Forschen und Fliegen: Weg und Werk von Kurt Tank) but the Ta 154/254 was then very firmly cancelled on July 2, 1944, alongside the He 177, Ju 288, Ju 290, Ju 390, Me 210/410, Hs 129, Ju 87, He 111, Ju 352, Bf 108, Ar 96, Ar 196, BV 222, BV 238, Do 24, Do 26 and Go 242.

 

[Elan Vital]

It seems Tank solved the glue problem in fairly short order (although Conradis, who was there, categorically attributes the Ta 154's cancellation to the bombed glue factory in Forschen und Fliegen: Weg und Werk von Kurt Tank) but the Ta 154/254 was then very firmly cancelled on July 2, 1944, alongside the He 177, Ju 288, Ju 290, Ju 390, Me 210/410, Hs 129, Ju 87, He 111, Ju 352, Bf 108, Ar 96, Ar 196, BV 222, BV 238, Do 24, Do 26 and Go 242.

Big cleanup of types to maximize production of the remaining designs?

 

[newsdeskdan]

Big cleanup of types to maximize production of the remaining designs?

Exactly that.

 

[Kanga]

Messerschmitt won the competition to design the DB 603/Jumo 213 vehicle. We don't have the details of how that decision was made, since we don't have a lot of GL papers from Udet's time. However, the advantages of the integral retractable radiator/evaporative cooling which the Fw 190 C lacked must have played a role.

Even when the Me 309 was out of the picture and it was a competition between the Me 209 and the Ta 153 (what had been the Fw 190 D, but which was redesignated), the Me 209 still looked like the winner since it used (supposedly) 50% existing parts compared to... somewhat fewer for the Ta 153.

Then the watershed moment where Tank explained that his guys had come up with the solution of sticking a cylindrical section in the tail of a standard 190 A airframe, thereby creating a DB 603/Jumo 213 vehicle out of 90% existing parts. This was the Ta 152 and it became the new direct successor to the 109.

But a LOT of development time had been lost because 1) the Me 309 was completely unfinished, then cancelled and 2) it gradually became clear that if the Ta 152 design could be pushed just a little further it would be a (supposedly) much better aircraft. This resulted in the interim Fw 190 D-9 - which was the embodyment of the original Ta 152 concept and not a direct follow on from the original Fw 190 D - while the 152 itself was developed into oblivion (well, except for the handful of Ta 152 Hs that made it into squadron service).

Wasn't the RLM blindsided by fear of the B-29 and finding a fighter to deal with it, while apparently forgetting to deal with the existing American bombers which were darkening the sky over Germany?

 

[newsdeskdan]

Wasn't the RLM blindsided by fear of the B-29 and finding a fighter to deal with it, while apparently forgetting to deal with the existing American bombers which were darkening the sky over Germany?

When you read stenographic transcripts of high level German air ministry meetings, attended by Goering, Milch, Galland etc. there really isn't a lot of 'fear' in evidence. Confusion, yes, irritation, yes, humour, occasionally but not really fear.

There was indeed a thread of development devoted to having something ready if/when the B-29s appeared - that's where the BV 155 came from. It was thought, correctly I think, that it would not be possible to develop a jet engine able to operate at high altitude in time. So the BV 155 ended up being the 'extreme' high-altitude interceptor, with types such as the Ta 152 H bridging the gap between that and the normal-altitude fighters.

As far as tackling the existing bombers was concerned, there was a huge amount of discussion about night fighters and there was similarly a lot of discussion about getting the Me 262 into service as a means of combatting the existing bombers. If you've read my Me 262 book you'll know all about that.

 

[pathology_doc]

There was indeed a thread of development devoted to having something ready if/when the B-29s appeared - that's where the BV 155 came from. It was thought, correctly I think, that it would not be possible to develop a jet engine able to operate at high altitude in time. So the BV 155 ended up being the 'extreme' high-altitude interceptor, with types such as the Ta 152 H bridging the gap between that and the normal-altitude fighters.

Your book on the Bv155 is already on the way, bought in order to flesh out that side of the 309 story.

 

[Calum Douglas]

When you read stenographic transcripts of high level German air ministry meetings, attended by Goering, Milch, Galland etc. there really isn't a lot of 'fear' in evidence. Confusion, yes, irritation, yes, humour, occasionally but not really fear.

There was indeed a thread of development devoted to having something ready if/when the B-29s appeared - that's where the BV 155 came from. It was thought, correctly I think, that it would not be possible to develop a jet engine able to operate at high altitude in time. So the BV 155 ended up being the 'extreme' high-altitude interceptor, with types such as the Ta 152 H bridging the gap between that and the normal-altitude fighters.

As far as tackling the existing bombers was concerned, there was a huge amount of discussion about night fighters and there was similarly a lot of discussion about getting the Me 262 into service as a means of combatting the existing bombers. If you've read my Me 262 book you'll know all about that.

Its amazing when you see Milch in these meetings and they`re all talking about the huge buildup of 4-Engine bombers in England, Milch literally says at one point "I wonder what they`re going to do with them all ?" As if the systematic obliteration of Germany one bit at a time wasn`t the only obvious possibility. At this early point they seem remarkably unconcerned, although of course we cant "feel" the atmosphere in the room, so some things we can only guess at.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Your book on the Bv155 is already on the way, bought in order to flesh out that side of the 309 story.

That came out in December 2019 and as such is a bit outdated now, given all the subsequent research I've done on Messerschmitt as a company and Messerschmitt types. You'll find further overlap as the same beats are played out - Milch tries to chastise Messerschmitt over the Me 210 etc. But then the project goes to Blohm & Voss and goes off in a different direction.

It probably could be expanded into a 'Blohm & Voss BV 155: Development & Politics' hardback with more recently discovered drawings, additional context etc. but I don't know whether there's any appetite for that.

 

[pathology_doc]

That came out in December 2019 and as such is a bit outdated now, given all the subsequent research I've done on Messerschmitt as a company and Messerschmitt types. You'll find further overlap as the same beats are played out - Milch tries to chastise Messerschmitt over the Me 210 etc. But then the project goes to Blohm & Voss and goes off in a different direction.

My starting point for German WW2 aircraft is Bill Gunston's half of Hitler's Luftwaffe, which I borrowed from my school library so many times that the librarians got tired of me. As an adult, I found a secondhand copy and was quick to snap it up as a memento of my childhood.

I slap a mental warning label on that which says "This was gospel when you were ten. Now let's go see what's changed." So your BV155 book is going to be a huge leap in that regard.

The whole thing feels somewhat reminiscent of Vickers being pressed to take over Red Dean development from Folland.

 

[pathology_doc]

As such, time went by and Milch seems to have just assumed that Messerschmitt was doing what was necessary to get the Me 309 prototypes built and tested. It's not until he's been in-post for several months that he begins to wonder what is actually happening with the 309. And it's not until he's been in-post for a year that the problems with the Me 309 (i.e. very little has been done) are fully exposed.

It's amazing that the same Nazis who could find Anne Frank in an attic in hostile conquered territory had no f***ing idea what was going on with their own front-and-centre piston-engined fighter development project in their own heartland for TWELVE MONTHS. The even more amazing thing is that Messerschmitt got away with it.

Anyone in Russia who dragged their feet to the point of passive self-sabotage over a major project as Willy Messerschmitt did with the 309 would have got themselves a 7.62mm headache.

 

[TempCz]

Or the nazies knew very well the condition of the plane....

 

[TomcatViP]

@newsdeskdan , You wrote in the post above:

The Bf 109 type as a whole had had SEVEN YEARS of development since its own Bf 109 V1 by this point. The Me 309 V1 - the sole flyable prototype - had been undergoing tests for FIVE MONTHS. If the Me 309 V1 had been tested against the Bf 109 V1 it would have absolutely wiped the floor with it.

This is not logical. The Mustang was faster from day one. See also the F-86, the Mirage III etc...
It simply illustrates how the 109 was a very good design. Any other conclusion can only be deemed acrobatics.
'
Regarding the debate on Wing Loading, we should remember here that this is only an illustrative value that is not a primary design goal. W/S is only relevant to compare similar design, with comparable mission, powerplant and notably in terms of airfoils or total mass.

Generally, higher wing loading on a fighter gives you faster cruise speed, something that allows you to cover more airspace, accelerate faster and have better energy level for a fight. It also reflects that you have less drag notably less trim drag, so you would be more efficient when it comes to maneuver and climb. You can see that with the 109 Vs Spitfire.

Another consequence is battle damage tolerance: a lower wing loadings, often means a less robust structure per span length, hence less tolerance to damage with an increased risk of clipping a wing.

Etc... Etc...

 

[pathology_doc]

While we're on the topic of Messerschmitt, can someone recommend me a good, reliable, recent history of the 109? I'm beginning to think that's essential contextual reading, given that it went on being developed long after it should have been replaced.

The same can be said about the Spitfire, but somehow Supermarine and Rolls-Royce conspired to fit a quart into a pint pot and stick the Griffon on the front without building a completely new airplane... at least until the F.Mk21 came along, which basically was a completely new airplane (so much so that it almost wasn't called a Spitfire and arguably shouldn't have been).

 

[newsdeskdan]

While we're on the topic of Messerschmitt, can someone recommend me a good, reliable, recent history of the 109? I'm beginning to think that's essential contextual reading, given that it went on being developed long after it should have been replaced.

The same can be said about the Spitfire, but somehow Supermarine and Rolls-Royce conspired to fit a quart into a pint pot and stick the Griffon on the front without building a completely new airplane... at least until the F.Mk21 came along, which basically was a completely new airplane (so much so that it almost wasn't called a Spitfire and arguably shouldn't have been).

If you can read German, the best book in existence on the Bf 109 is Das Jagdflugzeug Messerschmitt Bf 109 by Michael Baumgartl.
Michael's very rich and comprehensive account is based on a large number of primary sources - which he has been very generous in sharing with me.

If you can't read German, Lynn Ritger is currently writing Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Origins and Evolution for Tempest Books. Lynn has also, entirely independently of Michael, gone back to primary sources. This should, hopefully, be available by early-ish next year.

 

[pathology_doc]

If you can read German, the best book in existence on the Bf 109 is Das Jagdflugzeug Messerschmitt Bf 109 by Michael Baumgartl.
Michael's very rich and comprehensive account is based on a large number of primary sources - which he has been very generous in sharing with me.

If you can't read German, Lynn Ritger is currently writing Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Origins and Evolution for Tempest Books. Lynn has also, entirely independently of Michael, gone back to primary sources. This should, hopefully, be available by early-ish next year.

Thanks! I saw Ritger's book and my hand was hovering over the buy button, but then I realized there's so much garbage that's been written over the years about German WW2 aircraft that it was safer to come and ask here.

Unfortunately, my command of German is essentially nonexistent, so Michael's book will have to sit this one out.

(As important to know is what books I should not buy. Is there anything I should particularly stay away from?)

 

[pathology_doc]

I got to thinking last night: short of holding a gun to Willy Messerschmitt's head 24/7, how do you get this airplane into production?

I mean... we play this game with TSR.2 all the time, the difference here being that the obstructionism is at the level of the aircraft manufacturer, not the government or the service. So why not?

Ditch the reversing prop, ditch the pressure cabin and ejector seat, ditch the nosewheel, design the engine mount so it can take an in-service engine if it really has to. You will probably end up ditching the fancy radiator too.

Yes, in that case what you end up building will probably be an Me 209 (second iteration) or Me 155 rather than the 309 as described, but at least you stand a higher chance of actually getting it in the air.

 

[Foo Fighter]

There would need to be another equally adept company, interested enough to see things through, a la the Blohm & Voss company with the 155.

Who would that be, other than companies going flat out already?

 

[TempCz]

Kurt Tank made it.

 

[tomo pauk]

The underlying theme is economy - how do you get a DB 603/Jumo 213 vehicle while retaining as many existing parts as possible?
Me 309 = Probably fewer than 5% existing parts
Me 209 = 50% existing parts
Ta 152 (in original concept) = 90% existing parts

But if use of existing parts was not a factor, then yes, the Ta 152 was intended to do basically the exact same job as the Me 309. Same engine, same armament etc. So if the jigs could've been built, if Messerschmitt had done the testing, if the radiator had been switched from ventral/retractable to the annular nose type planned for the Me 209 circa early 1943, then the Luftwaffe could've had - in theory - something with Ta 152 capability somewhat earlier and in much greater quantity. Exactly how much earlier and in how much greater quantity would've been the deciding factors in terms of whether that actually made any difference to anything.

The capability of the Ta 152 stemmed from it's engines - big, heavy & powerful V12s with 2-stage superchargers. Neither Jumo 213 nor DB 603 were available with 2-stage superchargers until winter of 1944/45.
The Jumo 213A or the DB 603A mated to a fighter in late 1943 gives the Fw 190D-9 equivalent - indeed much better than the Antons, but still worse than the Merlin Mustang menace of 1944.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The capability of the Ta 152 stemmed from it's engines - big, heavy & powerful V12s with 2-stage superchargers. Neither Jumo 213 nor DB 603 were available with 2-stage superchargers until winter of 1944/45.
The Jumo 213A or the DB 603A mated to a fighter in late 1943 gives the Fw 190D-9 equivalent - indeed much better than the Antons, but still worse than the Merlin Mustang menace of 1944.

Yes, you're right. That's why Messerschmitt Me 309: Development & Politics traces both the story of the Me 309 airframe and those particular engines. I don't think the book makes any claims that the Me 309 would've won the war for Germany - far from it!

But following the 'what if' line of reasoning, DB 603 As were in series production for the Me 410 by the end of 1942, so had Messerschmitt been able to get the Me 309 airframe fully developed by then, with the full prototype series completed and flying on schedule, tests carried out, modifications made, automatic/manual option retractable radiator fully sorted and working, ridiculous Luftwaffe armour and equipment requirements dropped, it's not entirely inconceivable that the Luftwaffe could've had something Fw 190 D-9ish in early 1943.

Of course, unless large parts of Germany's aviation industry (e.g. Blohm & Voss, Siebel, Gotha, maybe Arado) could've been liquidated and their personnel/workshops/factories etc. fed to Messerschmitt much earlier (which is what Willy Messerschmitt actually asked for, with Siebel at least), I'm not sure there were anywhere near sufficient resources available to get a fully-sorted Me 309 into mass production by early 1943.

 

[TempCz]

If the Me309 was successful, Messerschmidt would have canceled the production of the Bf 109 and had plenty of capacity to produce the Me 309, right?

 

[tomo pauk]

Yes, you're right. That's why Messerschmitt Me 309: Development & Politics traces both the story of the Me 309 airframe and those particular engines. I don't think the book makes any claims that the Me 309 would've won the war for Germany - far from it!

Roger that
(I've ordered the book earlier today)

But following the 'what if' line of reasoning, DB 603 As were in series production for the Me 410 by the end of 1942, so had Messerschmitt been able to get the Me 309 airframe fully developed by then, with the full prototype series completed and flying on schedule, tests carried out, modifications made, automatic/manual option retractable radiator fully sorted and working, ridiculous Luftwaffe armour and equipment requirements dropped, it's not entirely inconceivable that the Luftwaffe could've had something Fw 190 D-9ish in early 1943.

DB 603As were indeed in series production by the end of 1942, powering the Do 217s in 1943 and on. Me 410 will have to wait until late 1943.
As-is, the DB 603A was plagued with severe reliability problems all through 1943. No wonder, it will took a lot for DB to sort out the coating of the exhaust valves on their engines, as well as the oil system.

It indeed can be noted that there was a lot to do by all parties (MTT,DB, RLM) in order for a Me 309 to be workable in 1943. Far more than for the Fw 190 with the DB 603A in the nose (but still with DB 603 trying to out-do woes of the Sabre of 1942 or the BMW 801 in 1941-42...).

Of course, unless large parts of Germany's aviation industry (e.g. Blohm & Voss, Siebel, Gotha, maybe Arado) could've been liquidated and their personnel/workshops/factories etc. fed to Messerschmitt much earlier (which is what Willy Messerschmitt actually asked for, with Siebel at least), I'm not sure there were anywhere near sufficient resources available to get a fully-sorted Me 309 into mass production by early 1943.

IMO, there is enough of material for a series of books about Nazi Germany bad management, outright wastage, turf wars, people pointing the fingers in random direction so others will be blamed ...

 

[newsdeskdan]

IMO, there is enough of material for a series of books about Nazi Germany bad management, outright wastage, turf wars, people pointing the fingers in random direction so others will be blamed ...

There is indeed. I would humbly suggested these, plus The Secret Horsepower Race by Calum Douglas.

 

[newsdeskdan]

If the Me309 was successful, Messerschmidt would have canceled the production of the Bf 109 and had plenty of capacity to produce the Me 309, right?

A big part of the problem was performing the switchover. Bf 109 production couldn't be allowed to drop until simultaneous Me 309 production had reached a certain level. So you needed capacity to maintain Bf 109 production at existing levels, then build the Me 309 on top of that for a certain amount of time.

Or find a way to reduce the terrific rate of Bf 109 attrition.

 

[TempCz]

The Germans had enough single-engine fighters even at the end of the war. They lacked gasoline and especially pilots. If the pilots did not have to fly in outdated Bf109s from 43, but could fly better machines, it would be worth it.

 

[Calum Douglas]

The Germans had enough single-engine fighters even at the end of the war. They lacked gasoline and especially pilots. If the pilots did not have to fly in outdated Bf109s from 43, but could fly better machines, it would be worth it.

Once you have planes which are about 20mph slower at most usual heights than your opponents, its more or less the end if that persists because you can just about dictate the engagement with that difference. The Germans did a pretty good job at minimsing that difference in perfect circumstances, eg. MW50 and GM1 and so on, but in reality these things were often unreliable or couldn't be applied due to other engine problems, or lack of supply - or were just not fitted to the bulk of the airfleet. Of course with the engine problems as they were, the 309 would have been similarly handicapped as well ! (This is me just saying they were basically f*****d whatever they did.)

 

[tomo pauk]

There is indeed. I would humbly suggested these, plus The Secret Horsepower Race by Calum Douglas.

I have Calum's book, your bookazine (the last book posted in that post), and hopefully the 309 book will arrive soon.

 

[Airborne2001]

It seems Tank solved the glue problem in fairly short order (although Conradis, who was there, categorically attributes the Ta 154's cancellation to the bombed glue factory in Forschen und Fliegen: Weg und Werk von Kurt Tank) but the Ta 154/254 was then very firmly cancelled on July 2, 1944, alongside the He 177, Ju 288, Ju 290, Ju 390, Me 210/410, Hs 129, Ju 87, He 111, Ju 352, Bf 108, Ar 96, Ar 196, BV 222, BV 238, Do 24, Do 26 and Go 242.

Interesting how the Do-217 and Ju-x88 aircraft were kept in production, though it makes sense due to their larger design potential. Though that begs the question of the working Ju-288C not being put in service to replace both. Considering Germany's late war situation changing the production lines for a non-jet/high performance prop (The Do-335 falling into the latter category) would be a bad use of resources. (Not that the Wunderwaffe wasn't, but still.)

 

[newsdeskdan]

Interesting how the Do-217 and Ju-x88 aircraft were kept in production, though it makes sense due to their larger design potential. Though that begs the question of the working Ju-288C not being put in service to replace both. Considering Germany's late war situation changing the production lines for a non-jet/high performance prop (The Do-335 falling into the latter category) would be a bad use of resources. (Not that the Wunderwaffe wasn't, but still.)

As of March 12, 1945, the Do 335 was on the point of being cancelled, with the production programme planned up to October 1945 including only the following six types:
Ju 88, Ta 152/190, He 162, Ar 234, Me 262, Ar 396.

Up to that point, the following nine types had been scheduled for continued production:
Ju 88, Bf 109, Ta 152/190, He 162, Ar 234, Me 262, Do 335, Ar 396, Mistel (presumably encompassing all Bf 109/Fw 190/Ju 88 combinations).

So, the Bf 109 and Mistel had been cancelled. The Do 335, missing from the list of six, is noted as being 'position unclear' - so its cancellation isn't 100% certain.

Of course, none of this really made any practical difference to anything.

 

[Ivan Culjak]

I think both Willy and LW really wanted the Me 309. The 309 was supposed to replace the 109. But the 309 didn't work. In the end, she couldn't do anything extra and in many ways she was worse than Bf. There was a huge desire to re-arm the Me 309, but that aircraft disappointed its creators and the Luftwaffe. Not a single prototype could beat the Bf109 G/K or the FW190.
It was reasonable to cancel this project.

I would say the same, it wasn't neither Milch, nor RLM - they wanted and supported it, it was just about the aircraft, ... Probably, the 603 is to blame the most, but still, this is the aircraft. Times had changed, jets were coming, and, in the end, it was simply too late...actually, if there was no jets, it would work ...It would be a superb aicraft, more heavily armed than any 109, and lighter than any 190 - a new generation of pistons...

 

[newsdeskdan]

I would say the same, it wasn't neither Milch, nor RLM - they wanted and supported it, it was just about the aircraft, ... Probably, the 603 is to blame the most, but still, this is the aircraft. Times had changed, jets were coming, and, in the end, it was simply too late...actually, if there was no jets, it would work ...It would be a superb aicraft, more heavily armed than any 109, and lighter than any 190 - a new generation of pistons...

The RLM and Luftwaffe were in rather a desperate situation at the end of 1942. Neither were really aware that jets were coming at that point - that realisation only really dawned during the spring of 1943. It seemed, circa January 1943, that the only option for a Bf 109 replacement was the Me 209 - reusing as many 109 parts as possible to create a 603/213 vehicle.

Then Galland flew the Me 262 and suddenly realised that there was an alternative. Then the Me 262 was taken away again, and the RLM/Luftwaffe were forced to choose between the Me 209 and Ta 153. Then the situation changed again...

 

[wasp850]

How exactly does surface cooling work ?

 

[pathology_doc]

(This is me just saying they were basically f*****d whatever they did.)

Secret Horsepower Race makes that brutally clear, and colours not only everything I've read since but everything old that I go back and re-read. The politics behind the 309 put an extra layer of icing on that. Both books together paint me a picture of an aero engine industry struggling very badly to maintain its current engines at an acceptable level of reliability, let alone perfect the next generation.

The Allies had their own failures and difficult moments, but the British stretched the Merlin beyond all recognition, got the Griffon into service in single and double-staged variants (though a Spitfire designed from the ground up to take it (as opposed to being modified for it, Mk XII and XIV) was either cancelled (Mk IV) or far too late to make a material difference (F.21)) and finally made the Sabre work for the Typhoon, while flexibility in programme management allowed Avro to do to the Manchester what Heinkel should have been allowed to do to the 177, and Rolls-Royce to take the Vulture behind the shed and put it down instead of sweating over it. Meanwhile, the Americans showed themselves to be the masters of the high-performance radial engine and airplanes to put them in, with the advantage that their industry was beyond the reach of any conceivable bombardment.

 

[NMaude]

Here's this interesting recently released video concerning the Me-209 and Me-309:

In this video, we take a look at several aircraft from Messerschmitt, in the Me 209, Me 309, Me 409, Me 509, and Me 609, all aircraft designs from World War II Germany that derived from or sought to replace the Messerschmitt Bf 109. We first talk about the early stages of the Luftwaffe pre-WWII, its growth, and the inception of the Bf 109. We talk about its early competition and how it ended up winning said competition. We talk about the early career of the Bf 109 in the Spanish Civil War and early in WWII.

We then talk about the Bf 109's shortcomings in the Battle of Britain, and how that led to the Me 309 being designed and created. We take a look at the Me 309's attempted improvements, and how they weren't enough to replace the Bf 109. We talk about the Me 609 derivative destroyer aircraft before then talking about the Me 209 (both versions). We talk about how it too improved upon the Bf 109, and how it too failed to replace it. We end by talking about the Me 409 and 509, and why all of these planes failed against the legendary Bf 109.

 

[Calum Douglas]

Here's this interesting recently released video concerning the Me-209 and Me-309:

I`m always amazed by how easy it is to make YouTube videos about planes without knowing anything about them at all.

Not trying to be unkind, but what is this ?

 

[NMaude]

Not trying to be unkind, but what is this ?

Something I just stumbled across and it looked interesting.

 

[wasp850]

The video is bad, but I was giving a reference to the Me 309 book to a talker in the discussion below the video.

 

[Kanga]

How about the Fiat G55? Instead of trying to build it in Italy, producing under licence in Germany by one of the sub-contractors building the 109. Used the DB605, armament all internal, anyone have any ideas on it's potential performance? It was flying early enough to make a difference (but not to win the war, of course).