Hi,

How about the Fiat G55? Instead of trying to build it in Italy, producing under licence in Germany by one of the sub-contractors building the 109. Used the DB605, armament all internal, anyone have any ideas on it's potential performance? It was flying early enough to make a difference (but not to win the war, of course).

Here's a German report on a fly-off between the German and the Italian fighter types (with consideration of the Jabo role):


I'm pretty sure that at some point, I translated the whole thing into English somewhere ... I'll check if I can still find that translation.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Hi again,

I'm pretty sure that at some point, I translated the whole thing into English somewhere ... I'll check if I can still find that translation.

Here it is:

COPY.
=====

Report on Fighter Aircraft Comparative Trials at the Italian Test Centre Guidonia.

In the period from 18.2.1943 to 21.2.1943, comparative trials of German and Italien aircraft were performed at Guidonia. For comparison to the Bf 109 G 4 and Fw 190 A 5, the following fighter aircraft were present: Macchi 205 V, Macchi 205 N, Reggian 2005 and Fiat G 55.

I. Type Characteristics

Type designation; Engine; Area in square meters; Flying weight in kg; Petrol supply in L; Rounds of 2 cm ammunition; Rounds of 12.7 mm ammunition; Propeller

(Insert table here)

II. General

The exterior shape and the general impression of the aircraft displayed there were good. The achieved performance is partially owed to the very small radiators. This is especially the case for the Macchi 205 V and the Reggiane 2005.

The existing armament integration made a good impression. The mounting of the cannon in the wing was well-designed. Concerning further equipment details of the aircraft, it has to be pointed out that there is considerable luxury: Hydraulic coolant and oil cooler flap actuation, hydraulic sand filter actuation, hydraulic seat adjustment and hyraulic flap and undercarriage actuation. The armament operation made a simple and sturdy impression. There is no perfect standardization of the 4 cockpit cabins, though some pieces of equipment and instruments were the same in all 4 aircraft. The instrument arrangement was, judged by German requirements, confusing and not up to the purpose. Standardization was present for the cockpit hood. All 3 aircraft had a standardized cockpit hood - forward section and mid section. Additionally, the armoured seats and the head armour was standardized in all aircraft.

III. Tactical-technical comparison

Of the 4 aircraft that were involved in the comparison, the Fiat G 55 receives such good marks that it requires comparison by tactical-technical iuxtaposition:

The advantages of the Fiat G 55 are: Larger Area, better aspect ratio, lower wing loading (185 kg per square meter). Compare to Bf 109 G 5 = 195 kg per square meter and Fw 190 A 5 = 210 kg per square meter. Owing to this, the aircraft has better characteristics, which effect a higher ceiling, better turning manoeuvrability and better climb rate at high altitude. The latter does not appear to be entirely correct, as the power loading is higher than that of the Bf 109 G 4.

Another advantage is the armament integration. The current armament of 4 12.7 mm machine guns and 1 151/20 cannon (200 rounds), whch are mounted centrally in the fuselage, features a sufficient ammunition supply, 360 rounds per barrel. The armament of the Bf 109 G 4 however is with 1 151/20 cannon and 2 7.9 mm MG with 500 rounds per barrel has to be called far too light. For development, 3 151/20 cannon and 2 12.7 mm are planned. The armament is very good and is integrated without the heavy negative impact on flying characteristics and performance that currently affects the German fighter aircraft when armament kits (Rüstsätze) are mounted.

The flying charactistics are not as good as those of the Bf 109 G 4 and the Fw 190 A 5. The view is somewhat worse than for the Bf 109 G 5 and Fw 190 A 5. A serious disadvantage of the Fiat G 55 versus the German fighter aircraft is the unsuitability for the fighter bomber role. This mustn't be ignored, since the fighter bomber role has turned out a top priority in all theatres.

It appars to be an advantage of the Fiat G 55 that the airframe is well suited for mounting a DB 603. This provides a considerable increase of performance, and the existing speed disadvantage (ca. 25 km/h slower than the Bf 109 G 4 and Fw 190 A 5) becomes obsolete. In addition, the aircraft mounts an additional 3 cm cannon.

To state a summary:

The Fiat G 55 is equal to the German fighters in climb and ceiling, superior in armament and range, inferior in speed (currently, 25 km/h), while it has to be taken into account that the Italian DB 605 yields 100 HP less.

Since according to the statement of the designer the DB 603 can be mounted without signicant modifications and changes, the aircraft becomes very attractive even considering the current performance, since with the DB 603, it would be superior to all current fighters in all respects.

IV. Evaluation of the individual flights and aircraft

1.) Macchi 205 V. Aircraft was developed from the airframe of the Macchi 202. The airframe has not been changed from that of the Macchi 202 with DB 601. Merely the DB 605 has been installed.

(Technical data skipped)

Assessment:

Aircraft is unstable longitudinally. Elevator is very effective. This causes tendency for stalling. The aileron forces are good, and the roll manoevrability as well. View during take-off mediocre. In flight, limited to the upper front - to the sides and to the back good.

2.) Macchi 205 N. Aircraft represents the series production version with DB 605.

(Technical data skipped)

Assessment:

Aircraft has good control surface effectiveness. It is very solid in the central position (gunnery runs). Roll manoevurability is good. Control forces slightly lower than those of the Bf 109 G. For climb and tropical operations, the coolant radiator is insufficient. (Coolant) consisted of 30 parts glycole and 70 parts water. View during take-off mediocre. In flight, limited to upper front - to the sides and to the back good.

Aircraft has 3-part wing - mid, left and right. Not suitable for fighter bomber operations. Belly radiator and undercarriage retracts towards fuselage centreline. Whether exterior loads can be carried below the wing could not be established.

Aircraft is in series production.

Further development of the Macchi 205 N is underway. When the area is increased to 21 square meters, the following armament is installed:

1 x 151/20 engine cannon
2 x 151/20, each 1 x wing unsynchronized
2 x 12.7 mm machine gun in the fuselage synchronized.

2.) Reggiane 2005. Installed engine DB 605.

(Technical data skipped)

Assessment:

Aircraft has one-piece wing.
Flying characteristics have to be called "sufficient". [Note: "sufficient"="ausreichend" in German terms means "clearly below average"].
Aircraft turns well. Roll manoevrability equal to Bf 109 G, while the control forces are somewhat lighter. Take-off and landing simple and harmless. The pilot seat is placed somewhat too far from the control column. The oil and coolant radiator is mounted below the fuselage in a wide, shallow shape. This means the aircraft is not suitable for fighter bomber operations. View during take-off mediocre. In flight, limited to upper front - to the sides and to the back good.

4.) Fiat G 55. Installed engine DB 605.

(Technical data skipped)

Assessment:

Aileron forces are heavy. The control surface effectiveness could be somewhat better. Roll manoeuvrability slightly inferior to Bf 109 G. Aircraft turns very well and tight. In the central position (gunnery runs) the aircraft is somewhat nervous and tends to nose up or down depending on speed [That's how I understand "fahrthängig", which looks like a contemporary slang term to me]. Wing drop to a specific side couldn't be established. The wing drop behaviour at the stall is similar to the Spitfire's. During take-off mediocre. In flight, limited to upper front - to the sides and to the back good. Take-off and landing very easy.

Aircraft is in series production.

Not suitable for fighter bomber operations with fuselage weapons rack due to belly radiator and undercarriage retracting inwards. Radiator is large enough and designed for tropical operations.

Development of the Fiat G 55 with heavier armament is underway:

1 x 151/20 engine cannon
2 x 151/20, each 1 x wing unsynchronized
2 x 12.7 mm machine gun in the fuselage synchronized.

A prototype with pressurized cockpit is currently in preperation at Fiat's.

V. Comparison flights

1.) Comparison:

Oberst Tondi with Fw 190 W.-Nr. 1163
Hptm. Behrens with Macchi 205 N W.-Nr. 499

Comparison assignment: Take-off together, climb to 8000 m. At 8000 m turn fight with alternation of positions. Then, at 6000 m horizontal speed flight, air combat, and in 2000 m turn fight.

In this comparison, the Fw 190 proved itself to climb quicker than the Macchi 205, and faster in horizontal flight at 6000 m altitude. Die climb performance of the Macchi 205 N was significantly deteriorated by the radiator being too small. Due to excessive collant temperature, 3 times the climb was interrupted for a period of horizontal flight. In the turn fight, the Fw 190 was superior. Here, the speed difference made itself felt. If the Macchi was flying in a good position, the Fw 190 could increase its distance. In a dive, the Macchi 205 could follow well initially, later the Fw 190's acceleration was superior.

(Technical data skipped)

2.) Comparison:

Oberst Tondi with Fiat G 55 W.-Nr. 292
Hptm. Behrens with Fw 190 W.-Nr. 1163

Comparison assignment: Take-off together, climb to 8000 m. At 8000 m turn fight with alternation of positions. Then, at 6000 m horizontal speed flight, air combat, and in 2000 m turn fight.

During take-off, the Fiat G 55 lifted off better than the Fw 190. In the climb above 5000 m, the Fiat caught up somewhat again, so that to 8000 m, climb performance was approximately equal. In the turn fight, both aircraft were equal to each other. In horizontal flight at 6000 m the Fw 190 was faster than the Fiat G 55. - After about 4 min level flight, the distance was about 800 Meter.

3.) Comparison:

Oberstleutnant Baylon with Reggiane 2005
Hptm. Behrens with Fw 190 W.-Nr. 1163

Comparison assignment: Take-off together, climb to 6000 m. At 6000 m horizontal flight, then turn fight, and in 2000 m turn fight.

In climb, the aircraft were equal. It has to be noted that during climb, according to Oberstleutnant Baylon full climb and combat power was not used. In horizontal flight at 6000 m altitude at maximum power, the Fw 190 is faster. In the turn fight, both aircraft have to be considered as equal.

4.) Comparison:

Major Gasperi with Bf 190 G 4
St. Ing. Beauvais with Macchi 205 V W.-Nr. 9288

No comparison flight was possible, since the undercarriage of the Macchi 205 did not retract due to a lack of hydraulic fluid.

5.) Comparison:

Major Gasperi with Fiat G 55 W.-Nr. 292
St. Ing. Beauvais with Bf 190 G 4
Oberstleutnant Baylon Macchi 205 V W.-Nr. 9288

Comparison assignment: Climb to 8000 m together. Turn fight at 8000 m. Glide to 6000 m. At 6000 m horizontal speed flight and turn fight at 6000 m.

The climb performance of the Fiat G 55 for the first 2000 m was a very little bit better, then the Bf 109 improved, and above 5000 m the Fiat G 55 was somewhat better again. The differences in climb performance were very small. In horizontal flight, the Bf 109 G 4 was somewhat faster than the Fiat G 55. In the turn fight, the Fiat G 55 was somewhat better. In the dive, all 3 aircraft had the same speed. - Bf 109 G 5 - Fiat G 55 and Macchi 205 V.

The Macchi 205 V was accompanying the comparison flight as observer and did not take part in the comparison.

An extensive advisory report covering the 4th and 5th comparison flight will be provided by St. Ing. Beauvais - Rechlin E 2. -

(Distribution list/signatures skipped)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Thanks for that, very interesting. I think I read somewhere that the G.55 was significantly faster when fitted with a German propeller: does anyone know anything about that?

The DB603 option would presumably have encountered the same delays as other types fitted for that engine.
 
Hi again,



Here it is:



Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Interesting that they were aware of the C.206 development! (21m square wing) Thanks for the fascinating information.
Thanks for that, very interesting. I think I read somewhere that the G.55 was significantly faster when fitted with a German propeller: does anyone know anything about that?

The DB603 option would presumably have encountered the same delays as other types fitted for that engine.
I believe this propeller might just be for the little know "Serie 2"?

It also seems that the US, Germany, and to a lesser extent the UK had a monopoly on the most efficient propeller design during WWII. Not that other nations didn't develop efficient propellers, but still.
 
To Dan and Calum:

(Sorry for maybe this quest was asked earlier in thread) Are there any plans to publish the book in German?
 
To Dan and Calum:

(Sorry for maybe this quest was asked earlier in thread) Are there any plans to publish the book in German?
As far as I know no, and I would think it would be impossible commercially as it would cost more to translate
that the sales profits in German would make it worth.

Basically what needs to happen is a German publisher has to approach us then buy the rights. Thats how these
deals usually work, its very rare for any sort of small/medium volume publisher to just "have a go" at
a translation because we don't know the market and distributing systems in the target country.

I get asked this all the time for The Secret Horsepower Race and sadly I have to say, its up to YOU if a translation
happens not us. Sounds odd, but that's how it goes.
 
As far as I know no, and I would think it would be impossible commercially as it would cost more to translate
that the sales profits in German would make it worth.

Basically what needs to happen is a German publisher has to approach us then buy the rights. Thats how these
deals usually work, its very rare for any sort of small/medium volume publisher to just "have a go" at
a translation because we don't know the market and distributing systems in the target country.

I get asked this all the time for The Secret Horsepower Race and sadly I have to say, its up to YOU if a translation
happens not us. Sounds odd, but that's how it goes.
Ok, I see. My thought was, it could be go the same way like "Die PS-Schlacht des Zweiten Weltkriegs" and you still have good connections to Motorbuch Verlag... ;)

 
Ok, I see. My thought was, it could be go the same way like "Die PS-Schlacht des Zweiten Weltkriegs" and you still have good connections to Motorbuch Verlag... ;)


Motorbuch are willing to consider something if you pay to get it translated first - and present them with the fully-translated manuscript - but they won't pay for the translation themselves.
 
Motorbuch are willing to consider something if you pay to get it translated first - and present them with the fully-translated manuscript - but they won't pay for the translation themselves.
Hence my uncle translated it (I was too busy, and his general German is far better anyway, having lived in Germany for the last 40 years).
 
@Calum Douglas
I've read in the Me 309 book by Dan and you, pg. 61-62, that the Jumo 213 was already with swirl throttle by some time in November of 1941. I'd kindly ask: Is that the earliest date that you know that the swirl throttle is mentioned wrt. being installed on the Jumo 213?
 
@Calum Douglas
I've read in the Me 309 book by Dan and you, pg. 61-62, that the Jumo 213 was already with swirl throttle by some time in November of 1941. I'd kindly ask: Is that the earliest date that you know that the swirl throttle is mentioned wrt. being installed on the Jumo 213?

I cant say, but I can say that I have NEVER seen any reference to a 213 existing WITHOUT a swirl throttle, I would very much assume
that it was designed from its initial concept to have one.
 
Hi Calum,

I cant say, but I can say that I have NEVER seen any reference to a 213 existing WITHOUT a swirl throttle, I would very much assume
that it was designed from its initial concept to have one.

My vague impression was that the Jumo 213's "Füllungsregler", replacing the conventional boost pressure regulator, might only made engineering sense because the swirl throttle limited charge mass heating at low altitudes, so the swirl throttle would have to be integral to the design.

However, that's just sort of an uneducated guess I made - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. If you shoot down my hypothesis, I'm fine with that too :)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Hi Calum,



My vague impression was that the Jumo 213's "Füllungsregler", replacing the conventional boost pressure regulator, might only made engineering sense because the swirl throttle limited charge mass heating at low altitudes, so the swirl throttle would have to be integral to the design.

However, that's just sort of an uneducated guess I made - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. If you shoot down my hypothesis, I'm fine with that too :)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Well the whole Jumo Kommandogerat is integrated with the swirl throttle, so its basically a core part of the whole engine controls system.

You could have made a 213 without one, but you would need a significantly different Kommandogerat system, which seems like madness.

For these reasons (and no documentary evidence otherwise) I think the 213 must have been designed with the swirl throttle from the start.
 
Hi Calum,



My vague impression was that the Jumo 213's "Füllungsregler", replacing the conventional boost pressure regulator, might only made engineering sense because the swirl throttle limited charge mass heating at low altitudes, so the swirl throttle would have to be integral to the design.

However, that's just sort of an uneducated guess I made - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. If you shoot down my hypothesis, I'm fine with that too :)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Jumo said, swirl throttle (exactly: "Füllungsdrossel") has many advantages, but one main thing was:

when the impeller is at an angle (partial load), the air flow in the direction of rotation supports the supercharger drive and it runs efficiently with relatively low internal consumed HP.
 

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Hi Gandalf,

Jumo said, swirl throttle (exactly: "Füllungsdrossel") has many advantages, but one main thing was:

when the impeller is at an angle (partial load), the air flow in the direction of rotation supports the supercharger drive and it runs efficiently with relatively low internal consumed HP.

Higher efficiency means less heating during the compression, so no contradiction there :)

However, the "Füllungsregler" term describes the engine control that regulated (below full throttle height) for constant charge mass instead of, like customary engines of the time, for constant boost pressure. This permitted the Jumo 213 to develop more power at low altitude than it would have with a conventional regulator. However, as you need to increase the pressure to provide the same charge mass at a higher temperature, which in turn increases the temperature even further, my suspicion was that the reason the Jumo 213 could get away with it was not simply that it had a more intelligent regulator, but also that the use of the swirl throttle limited the inevitable extra temperature increase to a tolerable magnitude.

So, "Füllungsregler" is not synonymous with "Füllungsdrossel", as you might have implied. Just so we're not misunderstanding each other! :)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Calum, I've seen you express the fond wish that the Merlin 40-series had been designed with a swirl throttle to recover some low-altitude performance (graphs in Secret Horsepower Race show that a Hurricane with Merlin XX was faster than a Spitfire V at low level, which gives one some idea of what the Spitfire III might have been capable of) - but was it an idea Rolls-Royce even had access to?
 
Calum, I've seen you express the fond wish that the Merlin 40-series had been designed with a swirl throttle to recover some low-altitude performance (graphs in Secret Horsepower Race show that a Hurricane with Merlin XX was faster than a Spitfire V at low level, which gives one some idea of what the Spitfire III might have been capable of) - but was it an idea Rolls-Royce even had access to?

There are patents for its use in quite basic commercial water flow machinery going back to 1919, the change from this patent to the swirl throttle as it appears on a Jumo 213 is not terribly vast. However, there are hundreds of millions of patents and perhaps not everyone was aware, but by the 1930`s I think it was becoming pretty well known, there was another patent in 1937.
 
That came out in December 2019 and as such is a bit outdated now, given all the subsequent research I've done on Messerschmitt as a company and Messerschmitt types. You'll find further overlap as the same beats are played out - Milch tries to chastise Messerschmitt over the Me 210 etc. But then the project goes to Blohm & Voss and goes off in a different direction.

It probably could be expanded into a 'Blohm & Voss BV 155: Development & Politics' hardback with more recently discovered drawings, additional context etc. but I don't know whether there's any appetite for that.
There is, definitelly, an appetite for it! For German bombers too.
 
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There are patents for its use in quite basic commercial water flow machinery going back to 1919, the change from this patent to the swirl throttle as it appears on a Jumo 213 is not terribly vast. However, there are hundreds of millions of patents and perhaps not everyone was aware, but by the 1930`s I think it was becoming pretty well known, there was another patent in 1937.
Thanks.
For German bombers too.
The whole Bomber B program and any contending design, Junkers X88 for X > 1, etc. etc. The list goes on.

Hell, even the He177 story could get a proper retelling, given that that was a cluster**** of an order to rival the 309, especially since as I understand it, there were two different cures considered - correcting the known cause of the engine fires or biting the bullet and going to four engines - with production and political inertia and eventually circumstances acting to prevent both of them being effective.
 
Thanks.

The whole Bomber B program and any contending design, Junkers X88 for X > 1, etc. etc. The list goes on.

Hell, even the He177 story could get a proper retelling, given that that was a cluster**** of an order to rival the 309, especially since as I understand it, there were two different cures considered - correcting the known cause of the engine fires or biting the bullet and going to four engines - with production and political inertia and eventually circumstances acting to prevent both of them being effective.

The He 177 is a central part of the bombers book.

My original Luftwaffe: Secret Bombers publication (back in 2016?) covered all bomber projects to a fairly shallow extent. Since then, I've squared away Me 262-based bombers in the Me 262 book and the Me 328 bomber in the Me 328 book. These won't now need to appear, muddying the waters, in the new bombers book.

I have one more important bomber development line to get out of the way next, after I've finally nailed the Hotol book.
 
@newsdeskdan
I've just finished reading the book. The conclusion of who is deserving a finger-pointing treatment surprised me a lot (no spoilers!), so I have a question: was there anyone that did a good job on the Me-309 project?

I suppose it depends how you define 'a good job' inbthis context. I do feel rather sorry for Karl Linder though. He seems to have wanted to do a good job, at least.
 
I suppose it depends how you define 'a good job' inbthis context. I do feel rather sorry for Karl Linder though. He seems to have wanted to do a good job, at least.
Have the aerodynamicists did the good job?
People that were dealing with the engine cooling system?
Folks that were designing the undercarriage?

'Good job' would've been like 'something that works, and works well, without much if any modifications'?
 
I do feel rather sorry for Karl Linder though.
That was my feeling too. He had NO IDEA his own boss was deliberately sabotaging him.

Have the aerodynamicists did the good job?
People that were dealing with the engine cooling system?
Folks that were designing the undercarriage?
No.

The aerodynamicists' desire for a clean airframe drove the complexity of the cooling system, but the choice of a tricycle undercarriage seems to me to have been a big factor in the airplane's downfall - giving trouble in and of itself, and also interfering with said cooling system.

Ultimately I think there was just too much being packed into the nose at any one time. The P-39 could get away with having nose guns and a nosewheel because the engine installation was behind the pilot but the 309 designers tried to get away with too much, to the point that the retractable radiator couldn't even retract because of all the duct-work around it. All the advantages of the nosewheel were thrown away by the complexity and unreliability of the installation, and if I were in charge it would have been one of the first things I ditched.

(ETA: I'm sure Bell had their problems with the new concept too, but they weren't working under the gun and they had the time and resources to sort their problems out. Messerschmitt, whether they knew it or not, WERE working under the gun and should have stuck with what they knew for a prop plane that needed to be in service in large numbers FAST to succeed an airframe which was on its developmental last legs.)

The second thing I would have done is have a DB601 installation drawn up as an option from the start. Daimler and Jumo were clearly both having issues with their next-generation engines, and being able to drop in the current generation and run with it should have been an obvious fallback position. But of course everything was so compartmentalized that nobody knew where anyone else stood, and the best remained the enemy of good enough until the very end.

Linder was at least doing his best to actually get the airplane into production, which is what he thought everybody wanted, but it wasn't his fault that his best wasn't good enough.
 
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The aerodynamicists' desire for a clean airframe drove the complexity of the cooling system, but the choice of a tricycle undercarriage seems to me to have been a big factor in the airplane's downfall - giving trouble in and of itself, and also interfering with said cooling system.

Ultimately I think there was just too much being packed into the nose at any one time. The P-39 could get away with having nose guns and a nosewheel because the engine installation was behind the pilot but the 309 designers tried to get away with too much, to the point that the retractable radiator couldn't even retract because of all the duct-work around it. All the advantages of the nosewheel were thrown away by the complexity and unreliability of the installation, and if I were in charge it would have been one of the first things I ditched.

Agreed all the way.
The point of me asking these questions to Dan was to underscore that the Me 309 was not some great design that was backstabbed by the shady, under-the-table and/or political machinations (that is not to say that the 309 was born in the bed of roses).
 
Agreed all the way.
The point of me asking these questions to Dan was to underscore that the Me 309 was not some great design that was backstabbed by the shady, under-the-table and/or political machinations (that is not to say that the 309 was born in the bed of roses).
I don't think it represented a serious step change in performance, but also, we will actually never really know, as it never flew with the engine power it was supposed to have been given.

Really radical designs (aside from a jet engine) would in my view have been the Bf 109 with laminar flow wings coupled to a proper 2-stage supercharged engine, but Messerschmitt designers judged the wings were too difficult to achieve in production time and disruption terms and we all know why they didn't get their best engines online fast enough.
 
I don't think it represented a serious step change in performance, but also, we will actually never really know, as it never flew with the engine power it was supposed to have been given.

Truth to be told, I was questioning the airframe-related details - ie. the things MTT people were tasked for - that seem to have a lot of faults and shortcomings, up to the point of aircraft not being safe to run & fly.
The DB 603, for all it's good or bad things, had no bearing to these problems.

Really radical designs (aside from a jet engine) would in my view have been the Bf 109 with laminar flow wings coupled to a proper 2-stage supercharged engine, but Messerschmitt designers judged the wings were too difficult to achieve in production time and disruption terms and we all know why they didn't get their best engines online fast enough.
Even just having a decent 2-stage supercharged engine on the 109s and 190s would've representing a world of difference once the P-47s and Merlin Mustangs start knocking.
 
Agreed all the way.
The point of me asking these questions to Dan was to underscore that the Me 309 was not some great design that was backstabbed by the shady, under-the-table and/or political machinations (that is not to say that the 309 was born in the bed of roses).

Hopefully the book presents sufficient information for readers to make up their own mind what happened and who was responsible. My view is that Messerschmitt got to a certain point with the design, then just stopped, back-pedalled and tried to insert a different design as the company's designated 603/213 vehicle. At the same time, they continued to publicly go through the motions as though the Me 309 was still being developed as a serious proposition.
It's not really possible to say whether the Me 309 was a great design or not because it was so underbaked; it never got the engine power it was supposed to have, its retractable radiator/evaporative cooling was never really finished (the latter may never even have been started), and Luftwaffe requirements burdened it with a ridiculous amount of armour.
Fundamentally, Willy Messerschmitt's whole view of aircraft design had shifted. His favoured designs between mid-1942 and mid-1944 were those that made maximum possible use of existing components - and the Me 309 did not align with this philosophy so it was abandoned. But when you had a contract with the Ministry and everyone was expecting you to deliver it as the Luftwaffe's next mainstream fighter, switching from the Me 309 to something else wasn't as easy as just declaring that you didn't want to do it anymore.
 
It's not really possible to say whether the Me 309 was a great design or not because it was so underbaked; it never got the engine power it was supposed to have, its retractable radiator/evaporative cooling was never really finished (the latter may never even have been started), and Luftwaffe requirements burdened it with a ridiculous amount of armour.

The great designs start as ... well baked and safe. Like Spitfire, Mosquito, Zero, Mustang, Fw 190 ( engine problems aside).
Me 309 was indeed underbaked.
 
it never got the engine power it was supposed to have, its retractable radiator/evaporative cooling was never really finished (the latter may never even have been started), and Luftwaffe requirements burdened it with a ridiculous amount of armour.
My reading was that they dumped true evaporative cooling fairly early, due to the battle damage issue, but the radiator certainly went nowhere. I'll have to go back and check that.

One of the big ifs is the level speed performance, since the aircraft as actually flown never did a complete series of full-speed runs versus altitude. As for the engine, that eventually did see service, but too late to mate with the single-seat fighter airframe that was specifically designed for it. The armour could potentially have been negotiated, if trials aircraft with and without the plate had flown comparatively against each other, but the foot-dragging reality of it all never allowed for that.

well baked and safe. Like Spitfire,
Jeffrey Quill went to great efforts to explain what Mutt Summers really meant by "I don't want anything touched", i.e. that it did not imply Godlike perfection, but that's still a long way from the 309's first flight: "I had trouble getting the wheels up, and also, I had to land before the engine destroyed itself".
 
The great designs start as ... well baked and safe. Like Spitfire, Mosquito, Zero, Mustang, Fw 190 ( engine problems aside).
Me 309 was indeed underbaked.

Behind almost any successful fighter design is a development history that the manufacturer wasn't keen to publicise and which historians have glossed over, because they only want to write about how amazing their subject aircraft was right from the start.

Neither the Spitfire nor the Fw 190 had a smooth and untroubled development. A better example would be the Hurricane, which did have a remarkably smooth development... because a design was deliberately chosen which took as few risks as possible. This arguably restricted the aircraft's development potential but did mean it could enter mass production in record time.
 
Behind almost any successful fighter design is a development history that the manufacturer wasn't keen to publicise and which historians have glossed over, because they only want to write about how amazing their subject aircraft was right from the start.

Neither the Spitfire nor the Fw 190 had a smooth and untroubled development.

We don't have any accounts of how the prototypes of the Spitfire and the Fw 190 were making headaches when in testing phases (again, bar the engine problems on the 190) - big hints that engineers and technicians dealing with the respective airframes did a good job from day one.
(this takes into account the decades worth of time the researchers were sifting through the archives)
 

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