Gentleman’s Astronautics
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No, I'm not looking for anyone to help with writing, I just need ideas how to fill the gaps, gap filling will be done by moi
Man in space
Adventure stories are no longer made like they used to be because all the villains have become protected species by political correctness.
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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yeah, true lol, I suppose I could try and humanise the martians a tad in a sequel, but thats only if this one even gets made
It is not possible to humanize the Martians, they are cruel, they hate us and they have green blood!
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Do you have any commercial objectives at all in this particular endeavour?
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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Well making a video game to sell for free, but thats it. And anyone that should contribute larger things, shall get the necessary credit. I have a couple of fellows on discord who I'm bouncing ideas off, and have been since July, so they're getting a credit.
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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Touche, although perhaps the human player might be able to sympathise with their situation, what with mars being a dying planet that can't sustain the Martian people for much longer, as its something mankind itself has got to do eventuallyIt is not possible to humanize the Martians, they are cruel, they hate us and they have green blood!
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While there is that, the thing which ultimately sealed their fate was that they cursed Dr Pepper and considered coffee blasphemy.
martinbayer
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Well, making a video game to *sell for free* sure sounds like an utterly brilliant business idea as a commercial objective for sure...
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It might not be a commercial objective. Some people do stuff for fun. And some people do stuff as practice so that their *next* project can be compensated with truckloads of filthy lucre.
And not everything needs to be "humanized." Non-humans, especially non-terrestrial non-humans, are definitionally "non-human." Sure, the Cat Women from Venus can be humanized, because they look kinda like us and think kinda like us and have built-in concepts of ethics kinda like us, but sometimes there are things that are simply wholly alien and with which we can never reach a meeting of the minds. You can't humanize "The Thing" or Cthulhu or Azathoth or Xenomorphs or insert hilarious political party reference HERE.It is not possible to humanize the Martians, they are cruel, they hate us and they have green blood!
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Ian Edginton in Scarlet Traces, play brilliantly with this trope in both ways.
This comic is must read, i wait on the Prolog.
But Ian Edginton and D'Israeli work on moment on Comic "Helium" for 2000AD.
Here the original Martians are Humanoids refugees from other Solarsystem
They de-humanise genetical into Wells Martians in order to survive on Mars.
Later they humanise in order to have Agents to operate against Mankind.
They de-humanise genetical into Wells Martians in order to survive on Mars.
Later they humanise in order to have Agents to operate against Mankind.
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martinbayer
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Well, the "sell for free" quote was a direct response to my question on *any commercial objectives*, so...
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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Well, I mean to say that the martians have a reasonably advanced culture, able to master interplanetary travel and cover vast distances in mere days as opposed to months or even years for mankind. Perhaps I might take a leaf from the Jeff Wayne video game intro, and have a group of martian elders opposed to mars' war-like tendencies, and pursuing a more peaceful cooperation with man.
Hmm.. they do? That is quite the interesting concept, perhaps building on one Wells himself laid down, where he supposed that a humanoid creature, resemblant of our own form, evolved on mars earlier than our own, an over time the brain and hands (agent of the brain) got larger, while the rest of the body diminished, until they ended up almost entirely brain, with two bunches of 8 tentacles where the hands once were.
yeah, I'm mostly doing this for bit of fun, and also to tell a (I hope) good story
Yes, but being at all *ever* relatable to humans is by no means certain. it's entirely too common in sci-fi to assume that aliens, no matter how different they look, are just like us in the way they think. The aliens brains have to work in ways that are sensible *to* *them,* doing things that fit in line with the physical realities that we have to deal with (assuming they're not transdimensional or energy beings or whatever), but other than that... they can be truly *alien.*
Wells' Martians are vampire cephalopods, kinda-sorta, vaguely. What abut the way in which octopi, which are thought to be pretty smart, evolved and live makes anyone think that we'd become good friends with really smart space versions?
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touche, touche. I must ponder on it further.
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'How I became friends with an octopus'
A diver in South Africa says he "visited this incredible animal for almost a year."
www.bbc.com
Something every writer of sci-fi aliens should at least consider, if not necessarily incorporate: sometimes aliens are depicted as emotionless, and sometimes as quite passionate. But what makes anyone think that alien emotions would be directly analogous to human ones? Perhaps they have wholly alien emotions. What the hell would that even *mean?* Trying to understand emotions that humans don't have would probably be like trying to describe "red" and "blue" to a blind man.
Incomprehensible emotions will likely mean incomprehensible motivations. They do what they do because it seems right to them, not because it makes any sort of sense to *you.* hell, maybe they do what they do because that's what seems *wrong* to them. They have concepts of right and wrong, and to them, the wrong way is the way to go. How would that system evolve? Seems unlikely, but I suppose it's possible.
Also consider: one of the great motivations for human endeavors has been religion. This is generally an irrational motivation, though it can often be rationalized. But for humans, religion is largely cultural... any baby can grow up to be any religion, or none at all, based on upbringing, and most adults can probably be converted. But perhaps the closest analog the Martians have to religion is baked directly into their DNA (or equivalent). And their god (or whatever) has told them they all other intelligences are blasphemy and should be wiped out. You ain't reasoning with that. You ain't humanizing that.
The human sees "friendship." What does the octopus see? Perhaps it just wants to share the Good News of the Gospel of Our Lord And Savior Cthulhu with the bipedal meat sacrifice.Reality can be surprising.'How I became friends with an octopus'
A diver in South Africa says he "visited this incredible animal for almost a year."
Interesting the diver said he visited the octopus for about a year. Because a year is about all an octopus has. Shockingly short lifespans. Imagine being somewhere in the vicinity of human-level smart, probably on par with the smartest parrots, and being dead in a year.
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I wouldn't rule out hereditary factors in morals.
www.ted.com
In experiments with capuchin monkeys, they ceased to cooperate when they received bits of potato for their efforts, and saw their neighbours received grapes for the same effort.
Moral behavior in animals
What happens when two monkeys are paid unequally? Fairness, reciprocity, empathy, cooperation -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these...
Sure, it seems likely that natural selection pressures, and basic cause and effect, lead to an understanding of "morals." But who can say if that would hold true in a wholly different environment. And monkeys aren't all that far from us. Let's see what the study with *cats* says about sharing...I wouldn't rule out hereditary factors in morals.
In experiments with capuchin monkeys, they ceased to cooperate when they received bits of potato for their efforts, and saw their neighbours received grapes for the same effort.Moral behavior in animals
What happens when two monkeys are paid unequally? Fairness, reciprocity, empathy, cooperation -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these...
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Convergent evolution can lead to similar results in different species.
On the other hand, there's divergent evolution - diversity results.
Expect to be surprised.
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dIq3W_ungWA
On the other hand, there's divergent evolution - diversity results.
Expect to be surprised.
Indeed. Imagine the morality system of a species that evolved from something like ants, with strict biological hierarchies. We think of "self sacrifice" as noble, but also something to be taken very, very seriously. Ant-men might, depending on caste, see it as just... whatever, I guess I'll rip my own head off.
Also, reproductive strategies will lead to different moralities. We crank out at most a handful of offspring and lavish them with attention. You kill a humans offspring at the peril of your species. But someone else might lay 6,000 eggs in a ditch and call it a day. Heck, they might promptly *die* after doing so. What will *that* lead to?
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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Very valid points, all due for major consideration, also I remember a sequence in the Walt Disney man and beyond programme from 1957, where it was about how man may simply not be able to comprehend what life he may encounter on the red planet, and I'm wholly convinced that segment gave some kids nightmares, so perhaps I might take some notes from that?
ah yes here it is, I found the segment, really trippy.
It's pretty clear that a number of the people who worked on that were early adopters of some interesting pharmaceuticals.
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Another example on morality system and behavior of Aliens:
On Planet Sheep made evolutionary arms race against their predators.
Until the Sheep become more and more intelligent, sentinel and use tools.
They become dominate Life form on their planet, by exterminate ALL predators.
For those Sheep this is deep rooted biological instinct to exterminate predators.
Also philosophic: We are Meat, they eat Meat, All of they must die !
This in combination with fanatic religion, a very explosive combination...
Imagine those Aliens land on Earth, murder and mayhem are ensure,
Were only vegetarian survive...
On Planet Sheep made evolutionary arms race against their predators.
Until the Sheep become more and more intelligent, sentinel and use tools.
They become dominate Life form on their planet, by exterminate ALL predators.
For those Sheep this is deep rooted biological instinct to exterminate predators.
Also philosophic: We are Meat, they eat Meat, All of they must die !
This in combination with fanatic religion, a very explosive combination...
Imagine those Aliens land on Earth, murder and mayhem are ensure,
Were only vegetarian survive...
A common enough trope in sci-fi is that intelligent life has been abundant and common throughout the galaxy for billions of years, and that there has been a federation of sorts all that time. Everybody gets along more or less well. Everybody is based on some common biochemistry, at least in the basics. But way back, there were chemical anomalies that led to critters of vastly different capabilities, and that the war to fight these demons off was long and costly enough that the horrors of it have reverberated down through the eons. Rather than good, healthy, proper life based on breathing hydrogen or hydrocarbons, those ancient monsters breathed oxygen. That made them toxic, that made them metabolically far faster, it made them dangerous, it made them evil. Everybody knows this down to their core, even races that haven't developed starflight yet and thus haven't been inducted into the federation. But the war against the oxygen breathers was a mere five billion years ago, so even the youngest races still have some genetic memory of the conflict that set the galaxy on fire. Fortunately, all the oxygen breathers are gone now.
Then the humans show up and say "howdy..."
The federations ideas of morality might well be comprehensible. But their blinding panic and fury will be for reasons the humans cannot hope to comprehend. And it won't be just one alien race out to get us, it'll be an entire galaxy. If it was explained to us, we might understand the motives and morality, but everyone else just loses their minds when they see us, and we never get the first hint of meaningful conversation from *anybody.*
An idea I haven't seen in any depth for utterly alien aliens: life forms based not on regular matter, but dark matter. Their constituent bits interact with the rest of the universe solely with gravity.
Then the humans show up and say "howdy..."
The federations ideas of morality might well be comprehensible. But their blinding panic and fury will be for reasons the humans cannot hope to comprehend. And it won't be just one alien race out to get us, it'll be an entire galaxy. If it was explained to us, we might understand the motives and morality, but everyone else just loses their minds when they see us, and we never get the first hint of meaningful conversation from *anybody.*
An idea I haven't seen in any depth for utterly alien aliens: life forms based not on regular matter, but dark matter. Their constituent bits interact with the rest of the universe solely with gravity.
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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yeah lol
That is very true, and I think that if a sequel was made, it would be very interesting to go down the road of how a realistic human-alien interaction, I believe Ray Bradbury's 'The Martian Chronicles' did something similar, although I cant be sure, however what I can say is that its been most interesting to debate such a topic, and have so many more unique ideas be introduced to me, and I thank you kindly. Should the game ever be made, I shall credit thee with 'alien/biological consultancy'.
I believe wells suggested something similar, which was a major criticism in this video, in which the fellow entirely misses the point: if mars had so eliminated disease and pestilence so long ago it had become 'forgotten', as these things do, it is wholly reasonable that the Martians could just blunder in and be sent reeling from the very different terrestrial microbial fauna, the difference being that earth had them.
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Stephen Baxter has the photino birds in his Xeelee Sequence
NOMISYRRUC
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That's reminiscent of the Space: 1999 episode, The Rules of Luton.
Substitute Planet Luton's plants for the sheep and its animals for Planet X's meat eaters.
We are Plants. They eat Plants. Every animal must die!
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For Planet Sheep, you can imagine the chaos and mayhem in the planet ecosystem,
As the Sheep disrupted the food chain by exterminate ALL predators.
Also how Sheep were disappoint, as they reach other star-system and find planet with predators.
and start to clean up those also...
What let to quite deep philosophic question for Sheep: what is a predator ?
On there World were wolves, lions, hyena like animals they deal with.
But what to do with other ones ?
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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That would make for a good philosophical discussion, but might we get back to the matter at hand? I’m not disregarding any of your excellent arguments, it’s simply that we have strayed a tad from the original point of trying to help me fill in the blanks of the story. So, might you fine gentlemen have a few ideas?
southwestforests
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It is also reasonable that the very different microbial fauna is unable to make use of the very different alien potential host.
Sort of like how some food plants and food compounds here on Earth are tasty to some species and toxic to others.
Or, more relevantly,
"We microbes need those amino acids and that ph level, and whatever this thing which showed up yesterday is, it ain't got them."
Perhaps a poor analogy, but like why the paint pads from a child's watercolor set did not dissolve the least bit after a couple days in a jar of alcohol.
Or like how water will damage or destroy a print photograph but kerosene will clean it.
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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A fair point, which might explain as to why the martians have not yet fallen ill after residing upon the moon for approximately 15 days, that and possibly the fact that if an astronaut comes down with an illness prior to a flight, he is replaced, so there would be no ill astronauts in the colony
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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Also, linking with what I said earlier, about getting back on track, perhaps there could be a scene not too dissimilar from this, where the 11 survivors attempt to make a hasty study of either martian technology or a martian sample?
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The UK which can embark on such an ambitious space programme would need to be very different from.OTL.
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The historical backgound to a 1950s in which competing US, UK and Soviet (or Russian?) space programmes are active on the Moon and Mars and encounter the Wells Martians and Verne Selenites may need to be very vague.
Political background is of little interest to most Space Adventure fans.
That said a British space base in Kenya would tread on real world sensitivities. Google UK Kenya relations to see why.
I would stick to a location in Britain or perhaps Australia (Woomera) or Canada.
Both countries would be likely to have an active role in any British Space Programme.
Political background is of little interest to most Space Adventure fans.
That said a British space base in Kenya would tread on real world sensitivities. Google UK Kenya relations to see why.
I would stick to a location in Britain or perhaps Australia (Woomera) or Canada.
Both countries would be likely to have an active role in any British Space Programme.
Gentleman’s Astronautics
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while you are correct on the politics part, I'm trying to keep close to the original ideas put down by the BIS, especially those of R.A Smith, who suggested a launch site in the Kenyan highlands, although I think a more coastal launch site would be more preferable.
Tracking/radio station might be in each, perhaps even smaller satellite launch sites, depending on the orbits required of the payload.
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The Hivers from Traveller . . .
Hiver - Traveller
'. . . the larva enter the wilds, where most are killed. After about a year, survivors return to civilization.
Hivers have no concern for the younger larvae, and in fact they consider them minor pests.
if the planet has no predators that like to eat Hiver larvae, they are imported.'
cheers,
Robin.
Idea: Martians launched an *abortive* Earth attack in 1899, per Wells, but with only a few cylinders. One fell in UK, one in the US, one in Europe somewhere, maybe one in Russia... and they kinda went THUNK on landing, killing the occupants. So the various powers got to examine the hardware (*badly* mauled in the landings) and were able to boost tech development *a* *bit.* But the knowledge that there's Martians wholly changes the direction of history. Martians => no WWI => no WWII. But as they always do, Commies spoil everything, perhaps somehow still take over Russia. The lines between Commies and free folk could be anywhere... perhaps Russia, or Poland, or Germany, or France has been consumed by the 50's.
With crushed hardware (and likely melted/burned by the Heat Ray fuel), the nations of Earth probably wouldn't glean much of real use about Marstech. But the knowledge that such exists would spur tech development. So even if the early 20th century isn't filled with World Wars, we still develop tech as fast as if it was.
The Martians themselves would be shapeless charcoal briquettes, and humans would learn little of use. We wouldn't know of their lack of immune systems, for instance.
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