Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[Forest Green]

Given the decreasing likelihood of Kadena even being able to generate meaningful sorties during the war, due to its proximity to the adversary, even 36 planes might be overkill.

Dark Eagle could make things the same the other way round too though.

 

[mkellytx]

Mine was that it's a hotdogging pilot running out of skill. Tried a short-field takeoff run without the needed experience and then stalled during the turn to port. The jet auto-ejected the pilot when it computed that he couldn't recover.

That's entirely possible, and probably more likely than a mechanical failure.

I just hate to accuse a pilot of screwing up if I don't know them.

Sadly, once you've briefed enough SIB's on First Fridays you recognize patterns. AF pilot, probably a patch wearer (USAF TPS), but not a regular STVOL driver, flying a STOVL jet, chooses to not follow pre-filed plan/expected/normal departure for this type of mission to show some guys at the airport something. There's good reason we follow process, procedures and standards, always tweaks my antennae when you hear stuff like that.

There's a reason those of us in the flight test community say the two most dangerous words in aviation are, "Watch this." Kind of like, "Hold my beer."

None of this is to say it goes one way or the other, a SIB will determine that and an AIB will inform the public eventually.

 

[TomcatViP]

Errr…Italy does have a Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO) so technically they are. And it wasn’t a case of the USA not allowing but rather countries looking at the costs involved vs the benefit and realising very quickly that it wasn’t worth it.

In Switzerland’s case they insisted even though it makes absolutely no economic sense. Think about it, establishing a ‘capability’ to just assemble 4 aircraft. Ridiculous!

Remember that they have their own test support structure that will benefit from those airframe and plan to have specific "indigenous" equipment and software integrated.

 

[GTX]

The Swiss aren’t doing anything special with their jets. This is nothing more than ticking an offsets style box

 

[TomcatViP]

In a statement, Lockheed said it was “honored” that Switzerland was now officially part of the F-35 program, stressing that the company was dedicated to “autonomy and sovereignty in integrating indigenous solutions”. “We look forward to growing the partnership with the Swiss Air Force and industry to deliver and sustain the aircraft for decades to come.”

Switzerland Signs F-35 Purchase Contract Following Parliamentary Approval

Switzerland's procurement agency signed a contract for 36 F-35As Monday, after the Swiss parliament voted to approve the purchase last Friday.

www.overtdefense.com

 

[TomcatViP]

And to know more about those 4 jets assembled in Switzerland by RUAG:

RUAG assembles four F-35 fighter jets in Emmen

Emmen, in the canton of Lucerne in Switzerland, is becoming a new center of expertise for the F-35 fighter jet: the Federal Office for Defence Procurement, armasuisse, has granted RUAG pre-approval for final assembly and testing of four of the 36 new Swiss F-35s. Building on this, RUAG is aiming...

www.s-ge.com

 

[DWG]

Interesting news about Switzerland to produce four of it's F-35's GTX, I am surprised that the US never alowed the UK or Italy or the other European countries that have ordered the F-35 to do the same.

Remember, the UK builds every aft fuselage, plus the horizontal and vertical tails. (And half the electronics when you allow for BAE Systems North America production). We've got a far larger piece of the F-35 programme than a final assembly line for just our own aircraft would amount to.

I'm guessing Switzerland wanted a close look at the assembly process for a stealth aircraft to ensure its national aerospace industry can contribute as a sub-contractor when opportunities arise. They can't be discounted as never having worked on stealth aircraft or missiles if they can actually point at F-35s they put together.

 

[DWG]

In this case, seizure of intellectual property would be completely amazeballs!!!!

Ugh, I would not want to be on any team charged with trying to pick up TR-3 software development. You're definitely looking at a Brook's Law/Mythical Man Month* scenario, but in this case we wouldn't be talking Mythical Man Months here, but Mythical Man Millennia.

It was bad enough just picking up an old project internally, there at least you probably have some institutional knowledge carrying over, but that's not going to be the case seizing someone else's IP and asking a third party to step in. Any sensible defence company would probably try to back quietly out of the building and hope the Congresscritters responsible didn't notice them.

* The whole point of Fred Brook's Mythical Man Month essay from 1973 was that throwing people at an overrunning software project doesn't speed it up, it delays it further, and that's with the original team on board to try and bring them up to speed. Without the original team....

 

[FighterJock]

Thanks DWG, I did not know that the UK built the F-35 aft fuselage plus the horizontal and vertical tails.

 

[GTX]

Remember, the UK builds every aft fuselage, plus the horizontal and vertical tails.

Really? Marand, an Australian company has been doing the vertical tails for about a decade now and still do so today. They are certainly not a UK company.

 

[GTX]

Thanks DWG, I did not know that the UK built the F-35 aft fuselage plus the horizontal and vertical tails.

They don’t do all.

 

[DWG]

Really? Marand, an Australian company has been doing the vertical tails for about a decade now and still do so today. They are certainly not a UK company.

They're subcontracting for BAE Systems.

https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/product/f-35#:~:text=We%20also%20manufacture%20vertical%20and,from%20both%20titanium%20and%20aluminum.

 

[Suricato]

And to know more about those 4 jets assembled in Switzerland by RUAG:

RUAG assembles four F-35 fighter jets in Emmen

Emmen, in the canton of Lucerne in Switzerland, is becoming a new center of expertise for the F-35 fighter jet: the Federal Office for Defence Procurement, armasuisse, has granted RUAG pre-approval for final assembly and testing of four of the 36 new Swiss F-35s. Building on this, RUAG is aiming...

www.s-ge.com

There are more informations:

F-35: Emmen wird zum neuen Technologiezentrum für den US-Kampfjet

4 der 36 Schweizer F-35-Kampfjets aus den USA werden ab 2027 bei der Ruag in Emmen endmontiert. Dafür erhält der Standort 500 Millionen Dollar aus den Kompensationsgeschäften und 100 Mitarbeitende.

www.luzernerzeitung.ch

It is only a final assembly of 4 aircrafts. Then they will fly to Cameri, Italy, where they will get the finish. I guess the coating and some confidential system.

It is to assume that the aim of the final assembly is to train and get a deeper understanding of the F-35 for the aircraft mechanics and avionic people, i guess some Germans, Italians and other EU nationalities, in case of a failure or damage in peace time. So those people can easier solve the problem or repair the aircraft.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Sadly, once you've briefed enough SIB's on First Fridays you recognize patterns. AF pilot, probably a patch wearer (USAF TPS), but not a regular STVOL driver, flying a STOVL jet, chooses to not follow pre-filed plan/expected/normal departure for this type of mission to show some guys at the airport something. There's good reason we follow process, procedures and standards, always tweaks my antennae when you hear stuff like that.

There's a reason those of us in the flight test community say the two most dangerous words in aviation are, "Watch this." Kind of like, "Hold my beer."

None of this is to say it goes one way or the other, a SIB will determine that and an AIB will inform the public eventually.

Yeah, it's looking good that this was a "hold my beer" moment.

I still hate to accuse a pilot of screwing up directly if I don't know what kind of pilot they are. If I know they think they're hot shit and have an ego the size of next year, chances are really good they screwed up and I will call them out on it.

Plus, I'm on record as being a bit disappointed that the Gowen Airfield Air Show last year had the USAF F-35 demo pilot, not the USMC. So I could 100% see a USAF pilot trying a STOVL takeoff because the folks at the airfield hadn't seen one before.

 

[perttime]

Was this mentioned before?

Patria to join the global supply chain of F-35s | Patria

Patria begins production and assembly of structures and engines for F-35 fighter aircrafts.

www.patriagroup.com

Patria (Finland) will manufacture a total of 400 forward fuselages and landing gear door sets for F-35 fighters from 2026 to 2040.

“Industrial participation and the services provided by Patria will ensure the skills, competencies and technologies critical to the security of supply of the F-35 system in Finland in both normal and exceptional situations,”

 

[GTX]

They're subcontracting for BAE Systems.

Still it is not accurate to say that the UK is building the vertical tails. Nor is it accurate to claim that BAE Systems North America production counts against UK participation.

 

[Forest Green]

Still it is not accurate to say that the UK is building the vertical tails. Nor is it accurate to claim that BAE Systems North America production counts against UK participation.

The UK does get 10% of the profits either way though.

 

[FighterJock]

So with the new government in power in the UK the million dollar or should that be pound question is when are we going to see all the F-35B that we ordered that is the 138 being delivered? The government is currently under extreme pressure to increase defence spending at present.

 

[Forest Green]

So with the new government in power in the UK the million dollar or should that be pound question is when are we going to see all the F-35B that we ordered that is the 138 being delivered? The government is currently under extreme pressure to increase defence spending at present.

I would rather not see 138 F-35Bs delivered, since that would be both more expensive and far less capable than 60 F-35Bs and 78 F-35As.

 

[DWG]

Still it is not accurate to say that the UK is building the vertical tails.

It's UK workshare wherever they're built. And they were built in Salisbury:

https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/article/tail-end-of-the-transformation-for-f35

It's unclear if vertical tail production was transferred to Marand for Australian workshare reasons (and if so, workshare on which programme, it doesn't have to be F-35).

 

[FighterJock]

I can see your point now Forest Green, order the remaining F-35B to take it up to 60 then order 78 F-35A and reopen RAF Luechars as the main operating base. I can only wish that this can go ahead.

 

[DWG]

So with the new government in power in the UK the million dollar or should that be pound question is when are we going to see all the F-35B that we ordered that is the 138 being delivered? The government is currently under extreme pressure to increase defence spending at present.

With Tempest consuming increasing parts of the RAF budget, I'd think it unlikely we'll see a major F-35 buy.

Labour will need to show they're tough on defence (which is usually the case, whatever the electorate is told to believe by the Mail and the Telegraph) to undercut criticism from the Tories (if they don't implode - Braverman seems determined to light the fuse), and Reform.

The immediate opportunities for demonstrating defence spending are the Army, which has dropped below even the dreadful 72,500 strength the Tories have cut it to, and the RN, with two frigates due to be laid up this year due to lack of crews. Turning round recruitment would be a major win for Labour and it doesn't necessarily need the lead-time of major procurement contracts*. OTOH it will likely take a significant investment in the wage bill and the defence estate (aka MoD housing, which is in a state).

* Numbers can be turned around relatively quickly even if turning that into experienced numbers takes longer.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The UK does get 10% of the profits either way though.

The question is whether the BAE tails made in the US or Oz count for the UK industrial offset or if they count for US or Oz.

The immediate opportunities for demonstrating defence spending are the Army, which has dropped below even the dreadful 72,500 strength the Tories have cut it to, and the RN, with two frigates due to be laid up this year due to lack of crews. Turning round recruitment would be a major win for Labour and it doesn't necessarily need the lead-time of major procurement contracts*. OTOH it will likely take a significant investment in the wage bill and the defence estate (aka MoD housing, which is in a state).

* Numbers can be turned around relatively quickly even if turning that into experienced numbers takes longer.

Navies have been turning numbers into tolerably-experienced numbers in a 4yr long process for the last couple hundred years or so, after all.

Looking from the outside, I'd suggest getting all the ships manned again first, then working on the Army. An island needs a Navy first. And frankly, the RN needs to stop faffing about with "6 ships to send to the 7 seas," always leaving one sea without a presence.

 

[Josh_TN]

Interesting that it's the same total number of aircraft but locations reversed. Fewer planes in Okinawa and more in Aomori.

There's a lot more hardened aircraft shelters in Misawa. Also likely significantly less PLA-RF brigades within range.

As someone noted above, even basing three dozen fighters at Kadena seems like overkill, though presumably the plan is that these would disperse to local Japanese airfields in times of tension or conflict.

 

[Josh_TN]

Dark Eagle could make things the same the other way round too though.

It will never exist in sufficient numbers for that.

 

[Raberto]

Salisbury

Think you meant Samlesbury....!

 

[Forest Green]

It will never exist in sufficient numbers for that.

How many Dark Eagles does it take to take out one air base with a cluster warhead? Fire works in two directions. Very difficult for ships trying to make that 100 mile trip given all the land-mounted firepower protecting the stretch too. If the ships can't make it, the war is over anyway.

You could make similar arguments for many of these coastal airbases. Some are even in Block II/III PrSM range, what chance do they have? Looking around, 300 seems to be the number studied by the CBO for Dark Eagle/CPS.

 

[Josh_TN]

How many Dark Eagles does it take to take out one air base with a cluster warhead? Fire works in two directions. Very difficult for ships trying to make that 100 mile trip given all the land-mounted firepower protecting the stretch too. If the ships can't make it, the war is over anyway.

You could make similar arguments for many of these coastal airbases. Some are even in Block II/III PrSM range, what chance do they have? Looking around, 300 seems to be the number studied by the CBO for Dark Eagle/CPS.

View attachment 734183

There is no known cluster warhead for CPS and it is unlikely one is developed. Furthermore most of the coastal bases are heavily hardened. Suppressing those air bases is something best left to B-2/21s carrying hoards of glide bombs.

 

[Forest Green]

There is known warhead for CPS and it is unlikely one is developed.

C-HGB. Successful end-to-end test already complete.
Post #2,091

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/current-us-hypersonic-weapons-projects-general.30673/post-690813

Furthermore most of the coastal bases are heavily hardened. Suppressing those air bases is something best left to B-2/21s carrying hoards of glide bombs.

They are? Only about half a dozen hardened single aircraft shelters. Appears to be way more at Kadena.
25°34'26.26"N, 119°27'37.43"E

 

[DWG]

Think you meant Samlesbury....!

This is what happens when you're functioning on an hour's sleep!

 

[Josh_TN]

C-HGB. Successful end-to-end test already complete.
Post #2,091

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/current-us-hypersonic-weapons-projects-general.30673/post-690813

They are? Only about half a dozen hardened single aircraft shelters. Appears to be way more at Kadena.
25°34'26.26"N, 119°27'37.43"E
View attachment 734186
View attachment 734187
View attachment 734188

When I click that link, all the twatter posts push me off which ever one you are quoting. Do you have an outside link or can you just post a quote?

Re: Chinese HAS...I think google maps might be out of date, if that is the source you are using.

"China alone has built over 400 new hardened aircraft shelters across various bases in recent years, not to mention many other shelters offering lower tiers of protection."

Does The U.S. Need To Be Building Hardened Aircraft Shelters For Its Combat Aircraft?

The US military and Congress are increasingly butting heads over aircraft shelters even as threats, especially from drones, grow.

www.twz.com

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuCx5FCVyQ

 

[Scott Kenny]

There is no known cluster warhead for CPS and it is unlikely one is developed.

CBU-107 Passive Attack Weapon. 3750 darts. 350x 14-inch/350mm tungsten rods, 1,000x 7-inch/180mm tungsten rods, and 2,400x 2-inch/50mm steel rods.

Total weight of the metal is about 800lbs (the overall weapon is 1000lb class).

Put that payload (or a portion of it, if CPS can't hold the full load) into the CPS RV with a bursting charge. Runways cratered by the 14" darts, HAS penetrated by the 14" darts, and pretty much anything in the open shredded by the smaller darts.

Of course, if it's an RBA, just rigging a bunch of shearing charges inside it to turn the tungsten or DU body into appropriately sized fragments will also do the job. GPS and radar altimeters, plus a simple time-of-flight detonator to back up everything. 'Scuse me while I drop a good 250kg of heavy metal at over mach 5 onto your airfield. With a few purely solid RBAs in there to bust up any buried C&C nodes or really crater the runway...

Furthermore most of the coastal bases are heavily hardened. Suppressing those air bases is something best left to B-2/21s carrying hoards of glide bombs.

No, that's a cruise missile strike with cluster warheads.

If you give it to B-2s, that's where we do a weird 50/50 load if it's possible. 8x 2000lb for runway busting, 40x 500lb CBUs for everything on the surface.

Or better yet, a coordinated strike with cruise missiles and B2s arriving at the same time. Cruise missiles get the cluster warheads, B2s get 16x 2000lb bombs to thoroughly destroy HAS, runways, and fuel storage.

 

[Josh_TN]

I doubt those weapons have anything like that penetration, though the CBU-107 would still be effective on aircraft in the open.

Any theoretical warhead for the CPS still runs up against the limitation that there will be all of three ships and five land batteries globally for CPS until the Block V Virginia's come online. Then there will be options for a few dozen more, assuming other weapons are not a higher priority (Tomahawk, Sea Dragon). Forest Green mentioned a total inventory of 300; that would be enough to hit the two dozen air bases within 500 miles of Taiwan a dozen times each, total, if the entire force was expended. That is not a useful capability. They are best saved for very high value time sensitive targets - for instance ships unloading in Taiwan or perhaps individual AWACs aircraft identified as being on the ground in real time.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I doubt those weapons have anything like that penetration, though the CBU-107 would still be effective on aircraft in the open.

How much damage do you think a 350mm long tungsten APFSDS dart will do to a HAS or concrete runways when it impacts at some 1200m/s or faster? CBU-107s get dropped really high, so the darts impact at their terminal velocity. The CBU-107 has 350 of those packed inside.

I could probably pack 1/5 of a CBU-107 into a CPS warhead by weight, which means 70x 105mm APFSDS round equivalents alone, plus another 200x midsize darts and 480x small darts. The midsized darts are in the same power level as the darts in Starstreak, so that's like being on the wrong end of some 70x Starstreaks. The small darts are heavier than what was used in any Canister round, they're probably closest to the WDU-500X/B "General Purpose Flechette" warhead for the CRV7. And the 1/5 load in the CPS has the equivalent of 6x CRV7s. Not counting whatever chunks the RBA gets broken into, since those will also hit the ground. Let's assume roughly 10mm chunks for the most part, with the tip of the nose impacting as a solid chunk roughly 5x the mass as the long dart. That should crater the concrete nicely.

Or if I get to fly a B2 overhead, I get to drop 16x CBU-107s per B2 (or 8x CBU and 8x 2000lb JDAMs) per target. Have to send a couple dozen B21s out as well, though. Not enough Spirits to hit all the bases in the area.

Any theoretical warhead for the CPS still runs up against the limitation that there will be all of three ships and five land batteries globally for CPS until the Block V Virginia's come online. Then there will be options for a few dozen more, assuming other weapons are not a higher priority (Tomahawk, Sea Dragon). Forest Green mentioned a total inventory of 300; that would be enough to hit the two dozen air bases within 500 miles of Taiwan a dozen times each, total, if the entire force was expended. That is not a useful capability.

6x CPS per base in one attack. You still retain half of the inventory. Half cluster/CBU107, half solids onto the C&C bunkers.

They are best saved for very high value time sensitive targets - for instance ships unloading in Taiwan or perhaps individual AWACs aircraft identified as being on the ground in real time.

AWACS on the ground will be gone in the 30min it takes a CPS to fly to the target if the shooting war is on. Ships unloading is a much better target.

 

[NMaude]

Marand, an Australian company has been doing the vertical tails for about a decade now and still do so today.

Any links to the company?

 

[Forest Green]

When I click that link, all the twatter posts push me off which ever one you are quoting. Do you have an outside link or can you just post a quote?

That's why I quoted the post number itself - #2,091.

Re: Chinese HAS...I think google maps might be out of date, if that is the source you are using.

"China alone has built over 400 new hardened aircraft shelters across various bases in recent years, not to mention many other shelters offering lower tiers of protection."

Does The U.S. Need To Be Building Hardened Aircraft Shelters For Its Combat Aircraft?

The US military and Congress are increasingly butting heads over aircraft shelters even as threats, especially from drones, grow.

www.twz.com

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuCx5FCVyQ

I see over a dozen hardened shelters at Kadena AFB, similarly, this is an old photo.

HAS

The Hardened Aircraft Shelter (HAS), with respect to the United States of America and NATO, owes its origins to the first above-ground hardened shelters built by the United States Marine Corps (USM…

nukecompendium.com

What are Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters?

NGHAS (Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters) are specialized structures made up of reinforced concrete, sand, and steel layers. They can withstand

ssbcrackexams.com

NGHAS (Next Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelters) are specialized structures made up of reinforced concrete, sand, and steel layers. They can withstand direct hits from a 2,000-pound bomb.

 

[timmymagic]

It's UK workshare wherever they're built. And they were built in Salisbury:

With Tempest consuming increasing parts of the RAF budget, I'd think it unlikely we'll see a major F-35 buy.

Labour will need to show they're tough on defence (which is usually the case, whatever the electorate is told to believe by the Mail and the Telegraph) to undercut criticism from the Tories (if they don't implode - Braverman seems determined to light the fuse), and Reform.

The immediate opportunities for demonstrating defence spending are the Army, which has dropped below even the dreadful 72,500 strength the Tories have cut it to, and the RN, with two frigates due to be laid up this year due to lack of crews. Turning round recruitment would be a major win for Labour and it doesn't necessarily need the lead-time of major procurement contracts*. OTOH it will likely take a significant investment in the wage bill and the defence estate (aka MoD housing, which is in a state).

* Numbers can be turned around relatively quickly even if turning that into experienced numbers takes longer.

Even with an increased defence budget (which is by no means certain, or likely to not be calculated in such a way as it doesn't actually result in a real increase) I think its exceptionally unlikely that we will buy more than the 74 that are currently on the shopping list.

The ongoing programmatic delays, failure to integrate weapons beyond what a Tranche 1 Typhoon carries already in a reasonable time frame, the utter disaster that is the fast jet training pipeline, demands on budget for GCAP, Typhoon upgrades etc etc means that F-35 has missed the boat...the second batch of 27 to bring the fleet to 74 by c2032 will be the last. Of course MoD won't admit this for some time, but after that all, and I mean all, of the Combat Air budget will be spent on Typhoon upgrades, unmanned systems, the inevitable F-35B upgrades and, most of all, GCAP. If F-35 had actually arrived on time, and had continued to deliver upgraded capabilities on time and budget the story might have been different....

There is also zero chance of an F-35A buy....a couple of defence commentators keep bringing a split buy up, there is clearly someone in the RAF and/or LM feeding them the story as a 'tame' commentator, but they never actually manage to explain how on earth it happens with the Combat Air budget as it is...the only potential chance for that is if GCAP suddenly fails, which would mean the UK's Combat Air industry dies...and the new government will not allow that to happen. The good news is that these nonsense stories have a shelf life....as soon as GCAP shows some progress in public, with a demonstrator, full business case, serious money committed and spent etc then the F-35A split buy nonsense dies a death and very quickly too...hopefully everyone remembers the berks who keep bringing it up and factors that in to whether they're considered a serious commentator in future...

 

[GTX]

Any links to the company?

Marand

About We supply precision engineered solutions to a range of industries including Aerospace, Defence, Rail, Mining and Energy.

www.marand.com.au

 

[GTX]

It's UK workshare wherever they're built. And they were built in Salisbury:

https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/article/tail-end-of-the-transformation-for-f35

It's unclear if vertical tail production was transferred to Marand for Australian workshare reasons (and if so, workshare on which programme, it doesn't have to be F-35).

By your reasoning all F-35s are 100% American built since all parts come into LM eventually…

 

[DWG]

By your reasoning all F-35s are 100% American built since all parts come into LM eventually…

I'm talking about contractually agreed workshare/offsets.