Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor

[Josh_TN]

631054[/ATTACH]

Any idea what "Non-MADL EA Mech" refers to?

I was curious about that too. I'd think EA was electronic attack in this context, but the MADL is the LPI datalink, so I don't see how EA would be part of MADL in the first place. However the MADL system is apparently something that exists more or less as software, not a separate set of boxes or antennas. The EA system likely time shares all the various wing and stabilizer mounted antennas with the com system; the radar certainly gets employed for EA. Mech = mechanism? Perhaps some type of EA system that doesn't use the wing/stabilizer apertures?

 

[bring_it_on]

I guess one could read this in two ways. One could be that communicate via MADL during Electronic Attack or have some sort of cooperative EA mode. Another could be that MADL itself is a multi-function array like the radar. It seems the AN/APG-81 is also getting all round (surface, maritime, and A/A) electronic protection upgrades and probably some EA enhancements as well.

However the MADL system is apparently something that exists more or less as software, not a separate set of boxes or antennas.

MADL has its own dedicated Ku band Antennas spread across the aircraft.

It would be interesting to do a quick survey to see how many (if any) active missiles come with a Ku band seeker which would would make a current or future - Multi-Functional MADL aperture attractive for EA in addition to comms.

 

[Josh_TN]

Thanks for that, I didn't realize MADL used dedicated antennas.

 

[TomS]

It would be interesting to do a quick survey to see how many (if any) active missiles come with a Ku band seeker which would would make a current or future - Multi-Functional MADL aperture attractive for EA in addition to comms.

Seems like several, based on a pretty cursory web search. Original ASTER, Meteor, Indian Astra and Akash. I suspect there are also several Russian and Chinese missiles, but info on their seeker frequencies are less available for some reason...

 

[bring_it_on]

There was an Air Force S&T project looking to develop conformal antennas that could operate with both IFDL and MADL and either switch instantly or operate across these bands concurrently. Not sure what came of it, but thinking of these antennas beyond communication also seems interesting and something that could potentially be what these types of systems evolve too eventually.

Dual-band low-profile antennas for intra-flight communication and data links | SBIR.gov

www.sbir.gov

 

[BDF]

Honestly I don't know why they can't just standardize the peer to peer data link around the MADL platform. I know they've updated the IFDL several times to improve bandwidth and other improvements but given that we're on the cusp of the Raptor's MLU it just makes eminent sense to upgrade the fleet to MADL. I realize there will be interoperability problems as the fleet cycles through MLU but once done you'll have both 5th Gen fighters on that standard and potentially the B-21.

 

[bring_it_on]

I think it probably helps to move towards dual and multi-band conformal arrays, space permitting, just given the long term survivability and LPI/LPD goals. The size of these apertures would probably be platfrom specific so no reason to hold the B-21 to the SWaP constraints of of the F-22 or F-35.

Multi-Band Antenna for Data Links

The FRF-229 multi-band panel antenna offers high performance for data links in L-, S-, C- and Ku-Bands, aligning with modern multiband radio terminals. The antenna apertures and RF amplification for all bands are contained within a single air-cooled housing that enables simple platform...

www.microwavejournal.com

 

[Sundog]

Hmmm having actually designed for stealth, it does not aid aerodynamics unless you are starting .....

I was referencing what I had read from the ATF designers, about how the aligned edges aided the high alpha regime, in terms of controlling the vortices being shed (You don't want a curved leading edge) and also yaw stability at higher alpha due to the sloped sides of the fuselage. As an aeronautical engineer as well, I understand everything you're saying. One of the reasons Lockheed had to redesign their original ATF submission, besides being overweight, is it didn't have enough tail volume to push the nose back down with the large area chines it had originally. Why that wasn't caught in the initial design review is beyond me, as I wasn't there, but it seems obvious to me.

Also, the store separation issue you brought up can clearly be seen in the Super Hornets outward canted pylons, which still drives me nuts (Due to the added frontal area/drag increase).

 

[sferrin]

Hmmm having actually designed for stealth, it does not aid aerodynamics unless you are starting .....

I was referencing what I had read from the ATF designers, about how the aligned edges aided the high alpha regime, in terms of controlling the vortices being shed (You don't want a curved leading edge) and also yaw stability at higher alpha due to the sloped sides of the fuselage. As an aeronautical engineer as well, I understand everything you're saying. One of the reasons Lockheed had to redesign their original ATF submission, besides being overweight, is it didn't have enough tail volume to push the nose back down with the large area chines it had originally. Why that wasn't caught in the initial design review is beyond me, as I wasn't there, but it seems obvious to me.

Also, the store separation issue you brought up can clearly be seen in the Super Hornets outward canted pylons, which still drives me nuts (Due to the added frontal area/drag increase).

The Super Hornet has curved leading edges on it's strakes too.

 

[TomcatViP]

I think he refers having rounded or sharp leading edge for the LERX. Sharp leads to better predictable separation.

 

[Sundog]

Hmmm having actually designed for stealth, it does not aid aerodynamics unless you are starting .....

I was referencing what I had read from the ATF designers, about how the aligned edges aided the high alpha regime, in terms of controlling the vortices being shed (You don't want a curved leading edge) and also yaw stability at higher alpha due to the sloped sides of the fuselage. As an aeronautical engineer as well, I understand everything you're saying. One of the reasons Lockheed had to redesign their original ATF submission, besides being overweight, is it didn't have enough tail volume to push the nose back down with the large area chines it had originally. Why that wasn't caught in the initial design review is beyond me, as I wasn't there, but it seems obvious to me.

Also, the store separation issue you brought up can clearly be seen in the Super Hornets outward canted pylons, which still drives me nuts (Due to the added frontal area/drag increase).

The Super Hornet has curved leading edges on it's strakes too.

I was referring more to the overall platform and the sharp break at the water line as opposed to a slab fuselage as on the previous generations. Regarding the leading edges, you definitely don’t want it like the North American F-X design submission or the Sukhoi T-10, unless you enjoy wing rock at moderate to high alpha. Although it did make for good looking designs.

 

[BDF]

I think it probably helps to move towards dual and multi-band conformal arrays, space permitting, just given the long term survivability and LPI/LPD goals. The size of these apertures would probably be platfrom specific so no reason to hold the B-21 to the SWaP constraints of of the F-22 or F-35.

Multi-Band Antenna for Data Links

The FRF-229 multi-band panel antenna offers high performance for data links in L-, S-, C- and Ku-Bands, aligning with modern multiband radio terminals. The antenna apertures and RF amplification for all bands are contained within a single air-cooled housing that enables simple platform...

www.microwavejournal.com

Thinking about it you're probably right, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the B-21 will use some sort of multifunction array that can communicate with IFDL/MADL providing the array has the bandwidth to cover those two waveforms. Theoretically it would just need the software to run it assuming the array can meet those constraints.

 

[bring_it_on]

I think it probably helps to move towards dual and multi-band conformal arrays, space permitting, just given the long term survivability and LPI/LPD goals. The size of these apertures would probably be platfrom specific so no reason to hold the B-21 to the SWaP constraints of of the F-22 or F-35.

Multi-Band Antenna for Data Links

The FRF-229 multi-band panel antenna offers high performance for data links in L-, S-, C- and Ku-Bands, aligning with modern multiband radio terminals. The antenna apertures and RF amplification for all bands are contained within a single air-cooled housing that enables simple platform...

www.microwavejournal.com

Thinking about it you're probably right, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the B-21 will use some sort of multifunction array that can communicate with IFDL/MADL providing the array has the bandwidth to cover those two waveforms. Theoretically it would just need the software to run it assuming the array can meet those constraints.

Yes that could be the goal. As well as to incorporate future higher frequency waveforms. I posted a link to the USAF funded S&T program on the Dual Band link covering both MADL and IFDL. The leap from there to a true multi-band system (like the one First RF (also the recipient of the award for the Dual Band antenna)) for a platform that has the space for it (like a UAV or Bomber) isn't too far fetched. I think given the vast communication and networking needs of the present and future, this may actually end being a net saving as far as efficiency and cost are concerned.

 

[Josh_TN]

Does the Talon HATE pod cover both of those wave forms (IFDL/MADL)? Regardless, it seems like it wouldn't be difficult to incorporate both into a new, larger airframe. The B-21 should have plenty of antenna space.

 

[BDF]

Does the Talon HATE pod cover both of those wave forms (IFDL/MADL)? Regardless, it seems like it wouldn't be difficult to incorporate both into a new, larger airframe. The B-21 should have plenty of antenna space.

I believe it only covers IFDL and Link16. I'm curious how close the Eagles have to be to the Raptors to enable high bandwidth data flow. I worry that they'll (F-15s) be vulnerable in the high end fight if they have to stay relatively close to the F-22s. Has it been determined if they're acquiring this pod in any volume?

 

[DSE]

Here is an old 1 page handout/brochure that was given out when one was on dispaly at LAFB before they were deployed.

 

[bobbymike]

I always do a quick “years since cancellation X 40 F-22s/year” calculation and we’d have what 500 raptors by now

Air Force Eyes Moving Older F-22s From Training To Combat Units - Breaking Defense

"There are a lot of requirements out there and we could use everything we had and a little bit more," says ACC head Gen. Mike Holmes, but "we need to put some priority on modernization."

breakingdefense.com

 

[GARGEAN]

And possibly on full-blown F-22B already...

 

[Grey Havoc]

So many lost opportunities.

 

[uk 75]

As someone who loved the Israeli versions of hot US fighters, especially their F15s ata time when USAF ones saw no combat, I was always disqppointed not see IDF Raptors strutting their stuff like Ziva in NCIS (Sorry too much Lockdown).
Was this the reason?

Why Israel Was Not Allowed to Buy the F-22 Raptor

You must 'obey'.

nationalinterest.org

 

[zebra159357]

F-22 Raptors Could Become Aggressors Under Air Force's Radical New Training Plan

F-22s, which are in notoriously short supply, could perform other duties, including playing the bad guy, if new pilots needed fewer training sorties.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Grey Havoc]

Rearranging the deck chairs...

 

[Deleted member 18851]

F-22 Raptors Could Become Aggressors Under Air Force's Radical New Training Plan

F-22s, which are in notoriously short supply, could perform other duties, including playing the bad guy, if new pilots needed fewer training sorties.

www.thedrive.com

It’d be cool to see Raptors in an aggressor scheme. Probably unlikely that they would with the special coatings and all, but a guy can dream.

 

[Firefinder]

F-22 Raptors Could Become Aggressors Under Air Force's Radical New Training Plan

F-22s, which are in notoriously short supply, could perform other duties, including playing the bad guy, if new pilots needed fewer training sorties.

www.thedrive.com

It’d be cool to see Raptors in an aggressor scheme. Probably unlikely that they would with the special coatings and all, but a guy can dream.

I don't know about that.

The Isrealies appereantly has a camo paintjob for their F35s that works with the stealth paint.

Israel Claims First to Use F-35 Stealth Aircraft in Combat

Israel has struck targets in the Middle East with the F-35 Adir jet twice, making the Jewish state the first country to use the stealth fighter in a

sofrep.com

Then you have the Russian SU57s blue paint job that's apperantly RAM like.

If all that is true we may see some interesting designs...

 

[bring_it_on]

That is a PS image for the Israeli F-35's.

 

[helmutkohl]

indeed.. the Israeli F-35s have the standard honkey donkey scheme

one could dream though

 

[GTX]

Grey is the new black...

 

[sferrin]

Well that's also I suppose part of the question, although the 15 carries them on rails likesidewinders. The 22 has the 9x on rails. I amnot a military pilot but are there not limitations when not launching off rails like a bottle rocket?

The F-22 does not launch AIM-120s off rails. The F-15 does it both ways (rails and ejectors) depending on where it's mounted.

 

[sferrin]

Well that's also I suppose part of the question, although the 15 carries them on rails likesidewinders. The 22 has the 9x on rails. I amnot a military pilot but are there not limitations when not launching off rails like a bottle rocket?

The F-22 does not launch AIM-120s off rails. The F-15 does it both ways (rails and ejectors) depending on where it's mounted.

View attachment 637453

The 22 doesn't carry any missiles externally like the 15? Ever? Like when its carrying drop tanks? I know the 15 uses a mix of options for amraam. I am just asking if the amraam is a "dogfight" missile when not fired from rail. If its not then the 35 doesn't have a dogfight missile except externally carried. I don't type out everything on a tablet because it constantly screws up words. Recall 35 phot firing 9x while in a roll? That's a dogfight missile.

Forgot about F-22s carrying AIM-120s externally. Yes, they're rail launched in that condition. No, rail launch doesn't magically turn the AIM-120 into a dogfight missile. It has the same functionality whether it's rail launched or ejected.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Well that's also I suppose part of the question, although the 15 carries them on rails likesidewinders. The 22 has the 9x on rails. I amnot a military pilot but are there not limitations when not launching off rails like a bottle rocket?

The F-22 does not launch AIM-120s off rails. The F-15 does it both ways (rails and ejectors) depending on where it's mounted.

View attachment 637453

The 22 doesn't carry any missiles externally like the 15? Ever? Like when its carrying drop tanks? I know the 15 uses a mix of options for amraam. I am just asking if the amraam is a "dogfight" missile when not fired from rail. If its not then the 35 doesn't have a dogfight missile except externally carried. I don't type out everything on a tablet because it constantly screws up words. Recall 35 phot firing 9x while in a roll? That's a dogfight missile.

Forgot about F-22s carrying AIM-120s externally. Yes, they're rail launched in that condition. No, rail launch doesn't magically turn the AIM-120 into a dogfight missile. It has the same functionality whether it's rail launched or ejected.

F-22A can carry AIM-120s externally, but it haven´t seen it yet except for testing.
When you´ve pics of the contrary, please share them.

 

[BDF]

Check Out This Incredibly Rare Image Of An F-22 Pilot Wearing A Helmet Mounted Display

While initiatives and tests came and went, the F-22 still doesn't have a helmet-mounted display a decade and a half after being declared operational.

www.thedrive.com

Cool image of the Scorpion HMD testing. Starting to wonder if the tight canopy constraints on the F-22 are the real limiting factor in the lack of a HMD.

 

[rooster]

Well that's also I suppose part of the question, although the 15 carries them on rails likesidewinders. The 22 has the 9x on rails. I amnot a military pilot but are there not limitations when not launching off rails like a bottle rocket?

The F-22 does not launch AIM-120s off rails. The F-15 does it both ways (rails and ejectors) depending on where it's mounted.

View attachment 637453

The 22 doesn't carry any missiles externally like the 15? Ever? Like when its carrying drop tanks? I know the 15 uses a mix of options for amraam. I am just asking if the amraam is a "dogfight" missile when not fired from rail. If its not then the 35 doesn't have a dogfight missile except externally carried. I don't type out everything on a tablet because it constantly screws up words. Recall 35 phot firing 9x while in a roll? That's a dogfight missile.

Forgot about F-22s carrying AIM-120s externally. Yes, they're rail launched in that condition. No, rail launch doesn't magically turn the AIM-120 into a dogfight missile. It has the same functionality whether it's rail launched or ejected.

F-22A can carry AIM-120s externally, but it haven´t seen it yet except for testing.
When you´ve pics of the contrary, please share them.

Wikipedia has a pic.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Well that's also I suppose part of the question, although the 15 carries them on rails likesidewinders. The 22 has the 9x on rails. I amnot a military pilot but are there not limitations when not launching off rails like a bottle rocket?

The F-22 does not launch AIM-120s off rails. The F-15 does it both ways (rails and ejectors) depending on where it's mounted.

View attachment 637453

The 22 doesn't carry any missiles externally like the 15? Ever? Like when its carrying drop tanks? I know the 15 uses a mix of options for amraam. I am just asking if the amraam is a "dogfight" missile when not fired from rail. If its not then the 35 doesn't have a dogfight missile except externally carried. I don't type out everything on a tablet because it constantly screws up words. Recall 35 phot firing 9x while in a roll? That's a dogfight missile.

Forgot about F-22s carrying AIM-120s externally. Yes, they're rail launched in that condition. No, rail launch doesn't magically turn the AIM-120 into a dogfight missile. It has the same functionality whether it's rail launched or ejected.

F-22A can carry AIM-120s externally, but it haven´t seen it yet except for testing.
When you´ve pics of the contrary, please share them.

Wikipedia has a pic.

I know that famous pic. It is one of the early aircraft testing an external loadout of 2 Amraams, it comes up on every site.
There are a few more pics around from that test, taken from different angles.
AFAIK, there exists also 1 pic (only?) of an F-22 testing an external load of 4 amraams. What I still haven´t seen during all these years , is an F-22 on a training sortie (not to speak of an operational mission) with external missiles and not during some carriage-testing.
I also know very well it is not very likely to happen on a real mission for reasons of stealth, but I´d like confirmation (by sight) that carrying external missiles (and preferably also firing them) on the F-22 actually progressed beyond some (minor/early) testing.

 

[Dreamfighter]

AFAIK, there exists also 1 pic (only?) of an F-22 testing an external load of 4 amraams.

I must correct myself: It is with no less then 8 external amraams, and it is a ...¨PS-job of the F-22 with the 2 external amraams

 

[dark sidius]

Surely good living for NGAD in the black https://www.airforcemag.com/the-goldfein-years/

 

[sferrin]

AFAIK, there exists also 1 pic (only?) of an F-22 testing an external load of 4 amraams.

I must correct myself: It is with no less then 8 external amraams, and it is a ...¨PS-job of the F-22 with the 2 external amraams

Do you honestly believe they wouldn't carry more if they needed to?

 

[Ogami musashi]

AFAIK, there exists also 1 pic (only?) of an F-22 testing an external load of 4 amraams.

I must correct myself: It is with no less then 8 external amraams, and it is a ...¨PS-job of the F-22 with the 2 external amraams

Would be hard to find the source now, but some F-22 project manager said the external amraam will never happen because of some aerodynamics/stress problems. Or to be more precise, I think it was the second (outter) hardpoint that led to those problems.

 

[dark sidius]

Don't you think that the F-22 thread is better to talk about that ? F-22 is not 6th generation fighter.

 

[Dreamfighter]

AFAIK, there exists also 1 pic (only?) of an F-22 testing an external load of 4 amraams.

I must correct myself: It is with no less then 8 external amraams, and it is a ...¨PS-job of the F-22 with the 2 external amraams

Do you honestly believe they wouldn't carry more if they needed to?

I´d like to see confirmation the F-22 can indeed carry (and fire) them externally if it needed to operationally, without any issues or problems interfering with that. Or without someone having to say "the wing-stations were actually never activated, but we will do that when we get the F-22EX".
It popped to my mind, that in the past 23 years (F-22 EMD first flight 1997), I´ve only seen power-points and "performance charts" that state in combat configuration it can carry up to 4 amraams externally (on the outer wing stations), and about 2 or 3 pics of an (EMD) F-22A indeed carrying 2 amraams externally during a test-flight.

 

[Dreamfighter]

Don't you think that the F-22 thread is better to talk about that ? F-22 is not 6th generation fighter.

I wouldn´t mind if the mod would see it as appropriate to move the posts about external weapons on the F-22 to the F-22´s dedicated thread.