Little-Known French Projects and Prototypes

[hesham]

Mr. Leon Gateu designed a tourist Biplane in 1924,powered by one 25 hp Salmson engine,and also
created a two-seat Monoplane in 1930,powered by one 45 hp engine,the later maybe remained a
Project only ?.

From Ailes 1936,

I completely confuse,here is an airplane to him,called LG.4,maybe it's the later one which I spoke about it,but what was the early series from LG.1 to LG.3 ?.

 

[petebutt43@hotmail.com]

Anybody any ideas what this is??

 

[petebutt43@hotmail.com]

I have just purchased what may very well be only other pic of the SPAD XIX from the one in Davilla!

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 19/4/1958,

here is a Peitz-101 light aircraft.

Here is the answer,Mr. Petebutt43

 

[petebutt43@hotmail.com]

Thank you

From Ailes 19/4/1958,

here is a Peitz-101 light aircraft.

Here is the answer,Mr. Petebutt43

From Ailes 19/4/1958,

here is a Peitz-101 light aircraft.

Here is the answer,Mr. Petebutt43

Thank you

 

[petebutt43@hotmail.com]

Thank you

From Ailes 19/4/1958,

here is a Peitz-101 light aircraft.

Here is the answer,Mr. Petebutt43

From Ailes 19/4/1958,

here is a Peitz-101 light aircraft.

Here is the answer,Mr. Petebutt43

Thank you

I am inclined to say " Close, but no banana"

 

[hesham]

From TU 136,

this firm had unknown Projects,it was called A.A.I. or Ateliers Aeronuatiques D'Issy Les Moulineaux,and built AA.1 as Caudron Goeland and Caudron C.800 ?.

 

[avion ancien]

From TU 136,

this firm had unknown Projects,it was called A.A.I. or Ateliers Aeronuatiques D'Issy Les Moulineaux,and
built AA.1 as Caudron Goeland and Caudron C.800 ?.

Are you saying that the AA.1 was both a twin engine six seat transport aeroplane and a two seat glider? Nothing to this effect is contained within the TU extract.

 

[hesham]

Are you saying that the AA.1 was both a twin engine six seat transport aeroplane and a two seat glider? Nothing to this effect is contained within the TU extract.

No my dear Avion,

they built AA.1 as Caudron Goeland,and also they built C.800,clear.

 

[Apophenia]

The postwar French government nationalized the Société Anonyme des Avions Caudron, rebranding it the Ateliers Aéronautiques d'Issy-les-Moulineaux (usually referred to, rather repetitively, as the Ateliers AAI or sometimes AAIM). The name, of course, came from Caudron's plant at Issy-les-Moulineaux.

Goéland production continued postwar at the Ateliers AAI - first the C.445M, then C.448 variants. AFAIK, the designations C.448 and AA.1 were used more or less interchangeably. The Ateliers AAI was later absorbed into the Société nationale des constructions aéronautiques du nord. As a result, production versions of Raymond Jarlaud's Épervier are usually known as SNCAN C.800s or Nord C.800s.

 

[avion ancien]

Thank you, Apophenia, for your clarification. Maintenant, tout est clair!

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 1937,

Mr. Francois Baudot who made a flying bicycle,he also designed a transatlantic Project ?.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bicycle-based-aircraft-or-would-be-aircraft.18657/page-2#post-374201

 

[richard B]

From Ailes 1937,
Mr. Francois Baudot who made a flying bicycle,he also designed a transatlantic Project ?.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bicycle-based-aircraft-or-would-be-aircraft.18657/page-2#post-374201

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=FR000000805991A&xxxfull=1

He patented between the wars coupled engines ,

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=US000001963432A&xxxfull=1

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=GB000000392282A&xxxfull=1

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=US000001963432A&xxxfull=1

and he was considering building a plane for transatlantic travel : The famous Paul Richard proposed a height Baudot engines aircraft in 1937 :

Les Ailes : journal hebdomadaire de la locomotion aérienne / directeur, rédacteur en chef, Georges Houard | 1937-04-15 | Gallica

A little later (your advertisement) , Baudot proposes an appointment for an aircraft designer , without success : I can't find anything about a later real project .


Anyway , he built and flew in the thirties a "bicyclette aérienne".

 

[hesham]

From L'Auto 1942,

the engineering M. Moine,designed a 250 ton giant flying boat Project,powered by eight engines.

 

[Apophenia]

the engineering M. Moine,designed a 250 ton giant flying boat Project,powered by eight engines.

That would be l'Ingénieur Marcel Moine of Latécoère. Not sure about the weight, but the engine description sort of fits the Laté 150 - the four HS.24Zs being doubled HS.12Zs.

 

[hesham]

In Flightglobal 13/10/1921

they mentioned that a helicopter flight 200m only and got an accident,designed by M. Payer ?.

 

[hesham]

From TU 137,

here is a monoplane designed by Mr. Bardin.

 

[Apophenia]

From TU 137,

here is a monoplane designed by Mr. Bardin.

Le congrès expérimental de Vauville 1923

Bardin shoulder-winged monoplane. Seems to have been flown as a pure glider at Vauville. On 26 August, the pilot - Lieutenant Joseph Thoret - established a distance record but then had to ditch at sea. Thoret swam to shore but the aircraft could not be saved.

Wingspan: 11.60 m, Length: 7 m, Surface area: 21 m 2, Empty weight: 180 kg, Motor; Anzani 12 CV

Design: René Bardin (1925 founder of ETACA, École des Techniques Aéronautiques et des Constructions Automobiles)

A photograph of the Bardin monoplane glider can be seen in the link:

http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Vauville-1923/images/n34_Bardin.jpg

 

[hesham]

From TU 137 & 170,

Mr. Beau gliders.

 

[hesham]

From TU 138,

A. C. Bergeron;

Pierre Vaysses confirms that the A.C. Bergeron was using a very modified AVIA XI À type glider which flew in Buc and the Sens fortnight in 1930. Activity reports appeared in "Les Ailes" at less until the end of 1932.

Mr. Rosenthal, who was part of this Club in the thirties,confirms the use of this Avia XI A type glider in Buc. The training mainly consisted in doing "school in the wind", it is at say keep the glider on the ground facing the wind in transverse balance with two assistants at the ends of the wings to avoid too strong tilt. These flights were seconds long, and a flight several meters from the 501 was considered very successful.

As far as Mr Rosenthal remembers, the activity consisted mainly of factory visits, very interesting at that time. These visits were guided by Ms. Bergeron. Were visited among others: Bloch in Courbevoie (Bloch 210 and 130), Morane-Saulnier in Puteaux, Bréguet in Villa-coublay (the 27 "All-steel"}).

 

[Apophenia]

From TU 137 & 170,

Mr. Beau gliders.

It might be better to assign these glider designs to GRAL (Groupe rouennais d'aviation légère or Rouen light aviation group). Ferdinand Beau may have been an instrumental in the design of some of these gliders but not all. Established designer Robert Landes is mentioned in the text and club member Jean David also assisted M. Beau with design and construction. Some designs - like the GRAL 7 - seem to have been overall club efforts.

All of the GRAL gliders were one-offs and mostly short-lived. BTW, the name Bamboula is a play on bambou (bamboo being the GRAL-1's major construction material). The bamboula is an African drum (and its associated dance). Fabric-covered wood (or bamboo) dominated GRAL designs but fuselages (or pods) were plywood or veneer-covered.

Some bio ... As noted in your TU clipping, Ferdinand Beau and his wife were deported to Birkenau. Beau was a member of the Resistance active in the Ligne Comète which aided downed Allied airmen. Beau died in Auschwitz on 15 May 1944, aged 49.

Also mentioned was GRAL co-founder/President, Marc Hauchermaille. A Sergent chef instructor at Le Mans in June 1940, he fled to Britain to join the FAFL. Sous-Lieutenant Hauchermaille was 35 when killed in action in his No.340 (Free French) Squadron Spitfire Vb (BL786) after tangling with Fw 190s off Ostend.

https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/

Bienvenue • Club de Planeurs de Rouen-Boos

----------------

GRAL - Groupe rouennais d'aviation légère Glider Designations

GRAL 1 - Bamboula 1931 single-seat 'ultra-léger' glider, x 1
- GRAL 1: Single-bay biplane, open-frame tail supports, span 6.00 m
-- Roll controllers* later mounted on wing struts, Robert Landes design
-- Orig. no ailerons, the 'commandes de roulis' added later

GRAL 2 - 1931 single-seat parasol monoplane, ply-covered fuselage*, x 1
- GRAL 2: Primarily fabric-covered bamboo & plywood construction
-- Test flown by Hauchemaille, abandoned as too heavy & unwieldy

GRAL 3 - 1931 single-seat parasol monoplane, veneer-covered fuselage, x 1
- GRAL 3: High-aspect ration wing, GRAL 16% profile, span 12.86 m
- GRAL 3: Design F. Beau with Jean David;* wrecked by Beau 05 Apr 1931
-- David also oversaw GRAL-3 component constr. by two local firms*
-- * Duvert et Cie (wood work) & Ateliers Savary (metal components)

GRAL 4 - 1931 La Limande single-seat shoulder-winged glider, x 1
- GRAL 4: Intended as tesbed for GRAL wing designs, span (??) m
- GRAL 4: Design F. Beau, named for flat* fabric-covered fuselage
-- * Limande from the Common Dab (a North Sea flatfish)
- GRAL 4: Flew 10 Feb 1931, La Limande wrecked March 1931

GRAL 5 - 1932* prone-pilot light/elementary training glider, x 1
- GRAL 5: Open-frame fuselage, fabric-covered wood, span 10.00 m
- GRAL 5: Lightweight glider inspired by slightly heavier Avia 11-A
-- Constr. actually compl. 24 May 1932, damaged (w/o?) 28 May 1933


GRAL 6 - 1932 pod-and-boom development* of GRAL 5 light glider, x 1
- GRAL 6: Fabric-covered fuselage pod, longer wings, span 13.00 m
-- * Financed by future GRAL président, M. Maurice Collet

GRAL 7 - Lévitan* 1932 single-seat training glider, x 1
- GRAL 7: Open-framed glider inspired by Avia 10-A, span 12.00 m
-- * Lévitan after funder, funiture-maker Meubles Lévitan

GRAL-8 - 1932 improvement upon GRAL 7 design, podded fuselage, x 1
- GRAL 8: GRAL 7 w/ GRAL 6-style pod, span 14.00 m (w/ rounded tips)

 

[hesham]

Thank you dear Apophenia,and from TU 139,

A. C. Creteil;

Pierre Vaysses tells us that the performance glider P.C.I. had been studied by Peulet. Baptized "Periwinkle" he had an ephemeral life. It was indeed broken by Girod around his third flight, at La Banne in 1934.

M. Rosenthal informs us that the person named Poccard who studied in
1933 the two-seater inspired by Sablier 19, in collaboration with Peulet,
could be Albert Poccard, a former Nieuport, who still lives.

 

[Apophenia]

...Pierre Vaysses tells us that the performance glider P.C.I. had been studied by Peulet. Baptized "Periwinkle" he had an ephemeral life. It was indeed broken by Girod around his third flight, at La Banne in 1934...

The designer in question is Henri Peulet. And its not "P.C.I." but P.C.1 (these days, usually seen written as 'PC-1'). The 'Periwinkle' name may confuse. Logic would suggest the alliterative translation 'Pervenche' (after the flower) but the name given was actually Bigorneau (after the small whelk).

Henri Peulet was a member of the Aéro-club de Créteil (as was the pilot mentioned - Charles Girod). The 1934 construction of the P.C.1 was by club members supervised by Peulet and President Robert Dandois. (The geologist Dandois had helped establish the Aéro-club de Créteil in March 1931.)

J2mcL Planeurs - Fiche planeur n°

Also in 1934, Peulet worked with Poccard on a Georges Sablier Type 19 development - the Peulet Biplace Marcel Guittard . It too was flown by Charles Girod (note photo caption in link below).

J2mcL Planeurs - Fiche planeur n°

 

[hesham]

From TU 139,

the Aubiet glider.

 

[hesham]

From TU 147,

here is a Beuchet Glider.

 

[hesham]

From TU 147,

I spoke before about Mr. Blanchet ;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-light-civil-aircraft-helicopter-projects-and-prototypes.16010/#post-346374

and here is a JB.1 Chantecler

 

[hesham]

In TU magazine,

there was unknown airplane from 1920,designed by Dubois-Piquet,any idea ?.

I still can't find it in Gallica site ?,even from the book,French Aeroplanes
Before the Great War,I don't know if he was the same person or not,Mr.
Dubois ?!.

 

[Apophenia]

Hard to say. Dubois (or DuBois) is the eighth most common surname in France.

Interesting date in your clipping also - I have seen the Dubois-Riant ornithoptère dated to 1909. But its a tricky type to search for because of the names - Dubois being such a common family name and riant translating as 'laughing'.

Also, there was more than one 'Dubois' ornithopter. The first is that 1909 or 1912 System Dubois-Riant with its 35 hp Viale 5-cylinder. The second was a man-powered ornithopter displayed at the September 1935 Concours Lépine in Paris. Unfortunately, the chap at the Concours Lépine with the functioning ornithopter is never identified as anything more than "monsieur Dubois".

(I say 'functioning' because there's also a photo around of a man wearing a pair of fanciful mechanical dragonfly wings. Captions say that he is leaving the Métro station heading for the 1935 show. The Concours Lépine was meant to be a display of inventors' wares ... but this dragonfly ornithoptère has more the feel of a publicitiy prop.)

On the 1935 Dubois ornithopter, the man at the controls looks middle-aged. If Monsieur Dubois was a young man when he joined forces with M. Riant in 1909 (or 1912), he might be around 50 years-of-age in 1935. All speculation, of course, with zero evidence to connect our 1935 hopeful with the System Dubois-Riant or, indeed, your mysterious 1920 Dubois-Piquet project.

 

[hesham]

From TU 127,

there was a tourist aircraft of 1930,called Aeralt Type-3,and powered by one 60 hp
Salmson engine,no more details are known.

From, Annuaire_de_l'aéronautique__bpt6k9810211h.

 

[hesham]

The Joubert J 3, which bears more than a passing resemblance to the Mignet HM.8 but, equally, differs in significant respects. Maybe its design was influenced by the HM.8. Maybe it was constructed using HM.8 components. Maybe it was converted from an HM.8. So far I've found next to no information about it. Does anyone have any?

From Toute L'Aviation.

 

[hesham]

From Toute L'Aviation,

the Chappedelaine Model.

 

[hesham]

From TU 183,

Mr. Louis Clement built a single seat racer monoplane in 1919 and
a single seat ultra-light triplane in 1921,but he had also a design for
seaplane triplane of 1919.

A more Info;

Louis Clément and Sanchez-Besa. - These two manufacturers exhibited several aircraft components made of steel tubes, and a multi-plane aircraft, Toussaint license, whose wing consists of 21 superimposed and staggered elements.

Motor 4. B. C. of 40 HP.

Span. . . . . . . . . . . . . meters. 4.50
Area. . . . . . . . . . . square meters. 12.50
Wing depth. . ,. . . . . meters, 0.150
: Empty weight: 200 kilograms.

In addition to a two-flap stabilizer and a single rudder, balance is provided by the oscillation of a few elements in the side frames.

Le_Génie_civil___revue_[...]_bpt6k6504208n

 

[Apophenia]

Établissements Louis Clément et Sanchez-Besa, Boulogne-sur-Seine (now Boulogne-Billancourt, outside Paris) and Sèvres (Seine-et-Oise)

Sanchez-Besa multiplane

 

[hesham]

the engineering M. Moine,designed a 250 ton giant flying boat Project,powered by eight engines.

That would be l'Ingénieur Marcel Moine of Latécoère. Not sure about the weight, but the engine description sort of fits the Laté 150 - the four HS.24Zs being doubled HS.12Zs.

After I discovered it,the TU magazine spoke about it.

 

[hesham]

ALE means, Aviation Légère Economique

I don't know if that was this a club or institute or what ?.

 

[Apophenia]

ALE means, Aviation Légère Economique

I don't know if that was this a club or institute or what ?.

In the page 2 article from l'Auto at least, "aviation légère, économique et sûre" is simply a category description. It refers to a light aircraft display attended by Air Minister Marcel Déat which was organized by the Fédération Aeronautique de France.

I wasn't able to spot the aviation légère économique references in your other clippings.

 

[hesham]

I wasn't able to spot the aviation légère économique references in your other clippings.

Here it's.

 

[hesham]

I wasn't able to spot the aviation légère économique references in your other clippings.

Here it's.

Also this one.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks for those enlargements hesham. So, definitely a category description rather than a aero-club or institute.

1.png in reply #517 refers to American light aircraft developments. The Stearman-Hammond Y-1 and Waterman Whatsit (or Arrowplane?) safety planes are mentioned as is a auto engine-powered Nicholas-Beazley Airplane Co. product (Plymacoupe?) before moving on to autogiros. So, all American references with no obvious French content.

2.png in reply #517 does contain French references but all are about what we would now call general aviation.

The clipping in reply #518 is another discussion of light aircraft in general. Mention is made of Klemm, Peyret-Nessler, Peyret-Mauboussin, Potez 58, and Caudron Phalène ... with photos of the Bassou Rubis and Brochet MB.30 (both parasols) and the Botali-du Rivau PAMA cabin monoplane.

 

[hesham]

From TU 162,

- BOURIEKAU:

In 1923, 56 registrations were taken for the second Congress
low power, motorless aviation experiment which was to
stand in Vauville. Among these inscriptions, number 20 was a
monoplane glider with thick wing designed and built by Léon
Bourieau of the Aéro-Club Sablais. With a wingspan of 11.50 m
and a length of 4.90m, its bearing surface reached 15 m2 for an
empty weight of T5 kg. The aircraft had to be piloted by its
manufacturer. In fact, the machine was not one of the 27 devices
that presented themselves actually in Congress and the editor
of this column don't know if this glider flew.

In 1925, Léon Bourieau produced in collaboration with Chapautau,
member also from the Aéro-Club Sablais, a glider derived from the
previous one and which was registered for the meeting of Vauville
which was held in July - August 1925. Bearing number 16 and piloted
by Chapautau, it was presented to the meeting. It seems however
that he did not fly and in any case, did not part of the devices qualified
by the regulatory flight of ... 10 seconds.