Kriegsmarine - KM Naval Armament Plans/Discussion

[Tzoli]

I'm not sure even the Germans were known about the true specifications of the Yamstos!

 

[Tzoli]

According to my friend there was a German delegation that visited the Yamato, but the Japanesd were very keen on that they not get anywhere close to the muzzles of the main armament! So not even the Germans know the true capabilities of Yamato.

 

[Colonial-Marine]

So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?

Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.

When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.

 

[ceccherini]

So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?

Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.

When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.

As far as I know the only naval gun larger than 16" actually built and tested by Germans was the Gerat 36 21" L52 gun. Actual German documents talk of 45 cm and 50 cm gun, never heard of a 51cm gun while 508mm makes no sense for a country using metric system.

 

[muttly]

From what i have read, the Germans that saw yamato reported that the guns
were at least 16in maybe larger based on the size of the turret.

 

[ceccherini]

From what i have read, the Germans that saw yamato reported that the guns
were at least 16in maybe larger based on the size of the turret.

Only one German, the naval attache in Tokyo, ever saw the Yamato and he was forbidden to go around the main guns turrets. IJN was so keen not to inform the Germans of the true specs of the Yamato class that the tour was authorized only after a personal request from Hitler and only because the attache only served on ships with at most 11" guns and he was belived to be incapable to distinguish between a 16" and a 18" gun. Quite ironically around 1940 the German publications were the only ones around the world reporting the next generation Japanese battleships to be armed with 18" guns but for the duration of the war the official consensus in German military circles was that the Yamatos has 16" guns

 

[cattalonX]

So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?

Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.

When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.

As far as I know the only naval gun larger than 16" actually built and tested by Germans was the Gerat 36 21" L52 gun. Actual German documents talk of 45 cm and 50 cm gun, never heard of a 51cm gun while 508mm makes no sense for a country using metric system.

Even Germans using metric system，They still built 406mm artillery（and 127mm？）

 

[ceccherini]

So it seems that Germany considered 450mm (17.7") and 500mm (19.7") guns prior to the outbreak of WWII while during the war for the later designs of the H-series battleship they wanted first 480mm (18.9") and then either 508mm (20") or 510mm (20.1") guns.

At any point did they consider 460mm (18.1") guns, perhaps when they learned the true specifications of the Yamato class battleships on the other side of the globe and simply didn't want to be outclassed in gun caliber?

Krupp worked both before and during the war on various models of 45 cm, 50 cm and 53 cm guns and the related turrets. The 48 cm gun was probably just a token weapon for the highly academic H43 study while there were never 508 mm and 51 cm guns. The Germans never knew of the true armament of the Yamatos.

When you say work was done was there anything completed in metal other than the 21" gun? (Navweaps says that this was indeed 533mm and not 530mm) A lot of the sources on the H-series battleship specifically reference 20" guns for H-44 so are plans for either a 508mm or 510mm gun beyond the realm of possibility?

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.

As far as I know the only naval gun larger than 16" actually built and tested by Germans was the Gerat 36 21" L52 gun. Actual German documents talk of 45 cm and 50 cm gun, never heard of a 51cm gun while 508mm makes no sense for a country using metric system.

Even Germans using metric system，They still built 406mm artillery（and 127mm？）

406 mm was defined by the Treaty. Even if the H39 battleships were totally out of the regulation, their guns design started in 1934 having the treaty compliance in mind. After the start of the war it was intended to rebore it to 420 mm. The 5" gun is more misterious through.

 

[Tzoli]

Some fixes for your file names. The 28cm C_26Le (with Railcart).jpeg is actually the twin turret for the 30,5cm/55 gun. The gunhouse and barrel is much larger then the previous 28cm turrets and guns.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Some fixes for your file names. The 28cm C_26Le (with Railcart).jpeg is actually the twin turret for the 30,5cm/55 gun. The gunhouse and barrel is much larger then the previous 28cm turrets and guns.

I'll go through and fix it, thanks. How exactly do you know it's a 30.5cm? I'll rename regardless, but just curious.

 

[Tzoli]

The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.

 

[alexi]

The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.

Good eye, honestly i didn't noticed first one have barrel length have over 14 meters long and barbatte diameter too also different between two, the rest seems match 28.3cm gun length though.

 

[Tzoli]

Seems like I've got the wrong barrel length for the Zenker 305mm armed designs. Instead of /55 calibre they would had /60 calibre or this twin turret shows a prototype longer gun.
Note that if the bigger turret was for the 283mm gun than that means a /64 or /65 long barrel!

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Seems like I've got the wrong barrel length for the Zenker 305mm armed designs. Instead of /55 calibre they would had /60 calibre or this twin turret shows a prototype longer gun.
Note that if the bigger turret was for the 283mm gun than that means a /64 or /65 long barrel!

The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.

Good eye, honestly i didn't noticed first one have barrel length have over 14 meters long and barbatte diameter too also different between two, the rest seems match 28.3cm gun length though.

I looked at the C/26Le and found that if you divide by 380 instead of 305 you get rather close to 52 calibers. I believe this to be a 38cm gun, as it would be far too long for a 30.5cm in most situations (65 caliber). Even as far as WW1 the Germans were using O/A length to calculate caliber barrel length.
I would like to mention, as I was informed by a friend, that the Deutschland preliminary designs did take into consideration 38cm guns. I believe this to be a potential candidate sketch for such a thing.
Otherwise this is a very oddly long 30.5cm. I don't discount the idea that it would be a 30.5cm, but...y'know.

I've discounted 35cm, so our options, really, are:
- 30.5cm/65.
- 38cm/52.

It's a bit odd, because all the rest are 28cm guns.
Not that I'm entirely opposed..."SK C/34f" and "SK C/34e" are entirely separate calibers, after all.

Additional note:
Slight correction, the turrets are different sizes (the C26 being larger) but the gun is absolutely massive regardless.

 

[alexi]

I only recalled 38cm considering for a slow monitor type in line with panzerschiff preliminaries.

If anyone can tell if there is a difference in caliber between the SK C/34f, g, and h, you get the golden cookie because I cannot figure it out.

Either the barrel too long or breech bulk too short... my guess. But C/34 h is possibly 42cm guns or potential L/54, L/55 or /56 caliber?

Let try to measure C/26e with C/34 model D, i noticed there's some similarity between two turrets, perhaps its 38cm?

https://imgur.com/99ztOIQ

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

I only recalled 38cm considering for a slow monitor type in line with panzerschiff preliminaries.

If anyone can tell if there is a difference in caliber between the SK C/34f, g, and h, you get the golden cookie because I cannot figure it out.

Either the barrel too long or breech bulk too short... my guess. But C/34 h is possibly 42cm guns or potential L/54, L/55 or /56 caliber?

Let try to measure C/26e with C/34 model D, i noticed there's some similarity between two turrets, perhaps its 38cm?

https://imgur.com/99ztOIQ

If I recall my attempted measurements gave me something like 45 calibers with 42cm where it should be 48 calibers IIRC. Maybe 'h' is supposed to be a production run of 42cm instead of boring out the 40.6cm. I do not think it would be too wild to believe, though, that the caliber may be L/54, 55, or 56. They've all been considered before.

C/34d does come before C/34e, which is Bismarck/Tirpitz's 38cm guns, so I do believe it is 38cm. If C/26e and C/34d have such similarities, all the better.

 

[Tzoli]

Ahh you were right!
Zenker proposed a wider range of armaments for his designs:
For the cruisers: 209mm (21cm), 283mm (28cm), 305mm and 380mm
For the monitor 35cm
For the Battlecruiser: 305mm!

Since navweaps transferred to the tapatalk forums this thread was not fixed for the html and BB codes hence difficult to read but it has all the info you can collect freely on the internet:

NavWeaps Forums-Admiral Zenker's warship design's

After spending weeks searching the internet I finally found what we are looking for in a book that was sitting on my own book shelf: Breyer’s Battle

www.tapatalk.com

Do somebody know which book contains these info to begin with?

 

[Dilandu]

Apparently Wargaming is adding a German battleship with 18" (457mm) guns to World of Warships and yes it's an arcade game but they like to claim they base a lot of their designs off historical plans. Seems 450mm or 460mm are more likely however, especially since the former is known to have been considered by Krupp.

Wargaming... The claimED that their designs are based on historical plans long ago. By now, they long stopped to care.

 

[cattalonX]

Consider the curved shape of the front of the turret，Maybe an earlier design，like L20 or GK xxxx

 

[Tzoli]

Seems like I've got the wrong barrel length for the Zenker 305mm armed designs. Instead of /55 calibre they would had /60 calibre or this twin turret shows a prototype longer gun.
Note that if the bigger turret was for the 283mm gun than that means a /64 or /65 long barrel!

The 28cm labelled twin and triple turret drawings shows a 16-16,1m long barrel (With the breech mechanism) which is good for the 14,815m long barrel of the actual Deutschlands (Projectile lengths was 1.047 and 1.188mm APC and HE)
That other drawing shows a barrel length of 20,1-20,2m with the breech mechanism. A 305mm/60 gun should be 18,3m long with the added breech mechanism that is good for 20 meters (The 305mm shell for the 30,5cm/56 SK C/39 gun was 1.4950mm long) that is why I think that drawing is for the bigger, 305mm armed Zenker design's turret.

Good eye, honestly i didn't noticed first one have barrel length have over 14 meters long and barbatte diameter too also different between two, the rest seems match 28.3cm gun length though.

I looked at the C/26Le and found that if you divide by 380 instead of 305 you get rather close to 52 calibers. I believe this to be a 38cm gun, as it would be far too long for a 30.5cm in most situations (65 caliber). Even as far as WW1 the Germans were using O/A length to calculate caliber barrel length.
I would like to mention, as I was informed by a friend, that the Deutschland preliminary designs did take into consideration 38cm guns. I believe this to be a potential candidate sketch for such a thing.
Otherwise this is a very oddly long 30.5cm. I don't discount the idea that it would be a 30.5cm, but...y'know.

I've discounted 35cm, so our options, really, are:
- 30.5cm/65.
- 38cm/52.

It's a bit odd, because all the rest are 28cm guns.
Not that I'm entirely opposed..."SK C/34f" and "SK C/34e" are entirely separate calibers, after all.

Additional note:
Slight correction, the turrets are different sizes (the C26 being larger) but the gun is absolutely massive regardless.

You seem to be correct on that. Checking it with the turret of Bismarck and apart from this drawing's guns a bit shorter, the turret is basically the same sized as that of Bismarck's 38cm twin!

Now the only designs I know of from the Zenker series to carry twin 38cm were Design II/10 and the Type A!

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

-SNIP-

You seem to be correct on that. Checking it with the turret of Bismarck and apart from this drawing's guns a bit shorter, the turret is basically the same sized as that of Bismarck's 38cm twin!

Now the only designs I know of from the Zenker series to carry twin 38cm were Design II/10 and the Type A!

I think we have the genesis for the 38cm/52's development.
I was always curious about what caliber Zenker's battlecruiser was actually supposed to have, but it seems that I now know! 55 calibers, just like the 15cm/55.
Guess we need to find it now, unless someone has it.

Since navweaps transferred to the tapatalk forums this thread was not fixed for the html and BB codes hence difficult to read but it has all the info you can collect freely on the internet:

NavWeaps Forums-Admiral Zenker's warship design's

After spending weeks searching the internet I finally found what we are looking for in a book that was sitting on my own book shelf: Breyer’s Battle

www.tapatalk.com

Do somebody know which book contains these info to begin with?

Some good info indeed.
It appears to be Siegfried Breyer's book Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970 (1974). I just ordered it. Guess I'll find out exactly what can be garnered from it in a few months from now.


Now that it appears the question of the turrets has been resolved in large part, there are a multitude of other things that would be interesting to discuss and find more information on.

For example, I've been trying to find information on German AA weapons pretty much since 2018.
Detailed information on things like the 3cm/44 MK 103 and 3cm/73 MK 303. (By this I mean actual primary documents, preferably.)
Also have this, which I know basically nothing about:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QVx50nu0fbVxjMS7Jrm6M-J_6mjei4gY/view?usp=sharing

 

[Tzoli]

10,5cm/52 SK C/36?
An 1936 design gun in an 1942 mounting? Shouldn't hat mean that the gun actually built???

 

[alexi]

Consider the curved shape of the front of the turret，Maybe an earlier design，like L20 or GK xxxx

All Zenker project warship sketches till 1927 showed world war I turret designs, although it might be early on, the later like Panzerschiff "A" have very steep rear roof matching the curve of C/26 and C/27 turret plans.
Am interested about Grosskampschiffe obscure studies, the guys on German forum said that it appears the committee have tested with triple and quadruple turrets layout, alongside with further changes to machinery arrangements, improve armor protection against long range. The documents about them is on bunderachiv (Imperial navy sections), sadly have to be order to see it.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

10,5cm/52 SK C/36?
An 1936 design gun in an 1942 mounting? Shouldn't hat mean that the gun actually built???

It's a bit of a mystery. The gun might have been prototyped in 1936, and there are a few experimental pieces dating from that year - the 3.7cm SK C/36 and perhaps the 53.3cm gun too.
I want to say it's a 10.5cm Flak 38 in a different mounting but I can say with about 0 certainty that is the case. For instance, the Flak 38 is already in the KM as the SK C/33. They already share a lot of similarities - even down to the rifling - the only major difference being the length of the barrel going to a full 65 calibers for the SK C/33.
Not that the Flak 38 wasn't used afloat, see the AA ship Nymphe, but I'm a little dubious...and that's before the issue of the caliber being L/52. The length of bore for the Flak 38 is L/52-ish, but not the overall weapon.
More worryingly, if that scale is correct, this is actually a 65-caliber weapon. I've verified and double verified and just now triple verified and this is for sure a 65-odd caliber weapon. As previously stated, the Flak 38 isn't a 65 caliber weapon. It does have a 52(.7)-caliber bore length and it is a 1936 construction weapon, but again there's no surefire way to tell that it is a Flak 38.

If it, for some reason, is a Flak 38, the only reason I could tell that they might even consider this weapon is that it already exists in numbers ahead of the competitor design, the 10.5cm/48-caliber KM44. Although there is no doubt the KM44 was prototyped and planned for a large number of small-craft projects (biggest being the Ftb 1942, 1941A, and 1944) it appears that their production was not a priority to the point that it never got off the ground despite the fact an entire twin mount was constructed and also prototyped. Sources that mention this weapon also say it was intended for the Flottentorpedoboot 1944, but it appears that this swiftly became not the case as the actual drawings for the ship have what is very obviously this "10.5cm/52 SK C/36" weapon. Why? Procurement issues? Weight? The SK C/36 does not appear to have the triaxial stabilization of the KM44 - or any other fancy bells and whistles, for that matter.

So it's a mystery at large for a gun apparently from 1936 (note this is likely the year that the design process began) with a mount from 1942 placed intended for vessels very late in the war.

 

[Tzoli]

If you did not already do so, you should include the triple 20.3cm turret as well in your documents:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/kriegsmarine-triple-20-3-cm-turret.18915/#post-200643

 

[Tzoli]

Did you guys found any drawing of the navalized twin mount of the 12,8cm/61 KM40 ( SK C/40? ) gun?

Germany 12.8 cm/61 (5") KM40 (Flakzwilling 40) - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

 

[alexi]

I found a bunch of sketches of 12.7/12.8cm DP in various mountings, various caliber length too, L/48,51.7,52,53,54..., some of them have axial mechanism similar to 10.5cm/65, other have full barbattes, land-mounting but with shell hoists and semi-automic loader, but for KM/40? no luck (there's 12.7cm/61 flak mount though).

The real struggles here are finding obscure files and documents in the unnamed scan sections.

 

[Tzoli]

I think that 12,7cm/61 should be the KM40 gun

 

[alexi]

Cross cut sections of 35.5cm triple turret from BB "Idaho".

 

[Tzoli]

Here are the original file sizes of the triple 203mm turrets.

 

[alexi]

I may have to do later, kinda bored lately, as for 12.7cm, the last four have no digital scans (probably that's where 12.7 KM40 mount contains or another unknown flak designs).

Since Sirene familiar with bunderachiv, but i don't know if he ever made contacts and orders these copies from archives, maybe you should ask him?

 

[alexi]

They're all in RM 24-2, including some varies other than 12.7cm mounts, but i'll upload all here, i also found interiors of C/34.f turret (apparently there are two variants, f1 and f2, f2 have shorter barrel length only at 17600m).

https://imgur.com/a/FWQt4y1

 

[Tzoli]

What do you think which is the mount for the KM40? I using mobile phone now and imgur's mobile browser drastically reduces quality though it shows normal on PC

 

[alexi]

None? the only open mount platform kinda like to KM40 was 12.7cm L/61.7 twin flak (is on page 9), but it have shell hoists, KM/40 has to be loaded by hand if i recall.

 

[Tzoli]

Let's see what turrets you guys provided drawings for:
Twin 53cm/52 Gerät 36
Triple and 3x types of quad (4x1, 2-2, 1-2-1) 40,6cm/52 SK C/34
Twin 38cm/52 SK C/26?
Twin 30,5cm/55 SK C/26?
Multiple Twin 28cm/55 SK C/26? or 28cm/52 SK C/28?
Triple 20,3cm/60 SK C/34
And these 12,8cm mounts you recently posted

So we still lack the 21cm twin turret for the Zenker I/10 heavy cruiser and the various single and twin turrets of the secondary 15cm guns for the Zenker designs? I think some of them had even 12cm DP-AA and 5cm AA guns?

 

[gollevainen]

wasen't there a turreted 50mm twin among Alexi's set of drawings of today?

 

[Tzoli]

Ahh indeed!
Twin 12cm FLaK:

https://imgur.com/AUOCI8w

View: https://i.imgur.com/AUOCI8w.jpeg


Twin 5cm AA in such small compact turret with included RF:

https://imgur.com/o3dKSaQ

View: https://i.imgur.com/o3dKSaQ.jpeg

 

[alexi]

Twin 30,5cm/55 SK C/26?

Initially was, there's 30.5cm/56 gun in coastal battery sketch however.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

What do you think which is the mount for the KM40? I using mobile phone now and imgur's mobile browser drastically reduces quality though it shows normal on PC

None? the only open mount platform kinda like to KM40 was 12.7cm L/61.7 twin flak (is on page 9), but it have shell hoists, KM/40 has to be loaded by hand if i recall.

The Pendulum mount seems to be the one you're after. It's marked KRUPP, after the company that produces the 12.8cm/61 Flak 40. Also, of course, the caliber length strongly indicates that it is the Flak 40.
Although there are shell hoists these are independent from the fact that the rounds would be loaded by hand.
The mount/turret/thing is such an oddball, but I see where they were going with it.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Twin 5cm AA in such small compact turret with included RF:

https://imgur.com/o3dKSaQ

View: https://i.imgur.com/o3dKSaQ.jpeg

This design is from 1942. A bit early for the 5.5cm, and of course is marked 5cm. It does make wonder, though, if this is supposed to be a navalized 5cm Flak 41. We'd need to very lengths and all of that.