KRIEGSMARINE CENTRAL - KM Ship Plans/Discussion

[_Sarcasticat_]

Hello and welcome,

This is a hub for all things Kriegsmarine. You will find information, data, and even deductions like this nearly nowhere else - and I take great pride in that.
So if you have a question about the Kriegsmarine, are looking for some specific ship or weapon, or even want sources, this is your place. Myself or any number of the great members of secretprojects will, I have confidence, assist.

Author's Note: this isn't wehraboo central, this is Patrick, and "German science is the greatest in the world" isn't an instrument.

You will find plans and books on a great many things. This includes but is very certainly not limited to:

• H-Class.
• Existing German Battleships (Schlatschiff Scharnhorst/Gneisenau/Bismarck/Tirpitz) and their preliminary designs.
• Admiral Zenker's various designs.
• O-class battlecruiser.
• Kreuzer M.
• Spahkreuzer's 38, 39, and 40.
• Your typical K's, Leipzig, and Nurnberg.
• Destroyers of every type and size, including Zerstörer Typ "32", Typ 36C, 37J/I-IV, 42 (Z-51), 42A/B/C, Typ 44, and Typ 45.
• Flottentorpedoboote, including Ftb 1939, 1940, 1941/41A, 1942, and 1944.
• S-Boote.
• Weapons of all conceivable calibers (5cm AA to 53cm main guns).
• Torpedoes.

All plans can be found here, including some other goodies if you look hard enough.

Germany - Sarcasticat's Home :) - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[alexi]

Any possibility for pre-Scharnhorst and pre-Bismarck plans?, don't think those are easy to find.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Any possibility for pre-Scharnhorst and pre-Bismarck plans?, don't think those are easy to find.

If you're looking for proto-Scharnhorst's then look no further than Panzerschiff D (Ersatz Elsass) preliminaries:

There are a few images of Schlatschiff F and G (prelim designs for Bismarck) floating around on the internet.

Honestly though? You hit anything above a heavy cruiser and in large part you've lost my interest.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

We have this image, for instance:

Not sure how accurate it is. If I knew the source, I might actually have it buried deep within my long list of legally obtained:tm: PDF books.

 

[alexi]

Thanks you, wish i have Whitley books around, i never bother to buy one or look at it first, but other guys said it helpful if you want to find Kriegsmarine plans and projects.

Maomatic work is close, i have some Scharnhorst preliminary photos under project D1 to D7 (no D4 and D5 sadly), secondaries is spot on too (they didn't have single 15cm until later), no aviation and no torpedoes too.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

So let's see what we've got here.
Edit: Apologies on the weird embedding. I blame it on SPF

A bad workman blames his tools. I altered the links to IMG instead of MEDIA links and it looks fine to me. I strongly advise uploading to the forum instead of linking anyway as linked image tend to die over time while pics uploaded in December 2005 are still good

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

So let's see what we've got here.
Edit: Apologies on the weird embedding. I blame it on SPF

A bad workman blames his tools. I altered the links to IMG instead of MEDIA links and it looks fine to me. I strongly advise uploading to the forum instead of linking anyway as linked image tend to die over time while pics uploaded in December 2005 are still good

Why thank you kind sir.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Thanks you, wish i have Whitley books around, i never bother to buy one or look at it first, but other guys said it helpful if you want to find Kriegsmarine plans and projects.

Maomatic work is close, i have some Scharnhorst preliminary photos under project D1 to D7 (no D4 and D5 sadly), secondaries is spot on too (they didn't have single 15cm until later), no aviation and no torpedoes too.

I'm curious on what you've got for D6/D7 (and by extension the Neuentwurf I/II)
In the meantime I'll poke around my sources and see if I can find anything.
I've severely backlogged my middleman with plans so I'd rather wait on inquiring further until I can get what I've already asked for.

 

[Roodbaard1958!]

There is an alternative for drawings of some smaller German naval units. Dutch shipyards were forced to built such although few were completed. The archive of the Kon. MIj. De Schelde contains several hundreds of drawings, even of the smallest details. I was responsible for the digitization project. The drawings are now preserved at the Zeeuws Archief at Middelburg, Netherlands but traceable via a website. the website is in Dutch, but for non-Dutch speaking people, there is a guide with article written in English available.

for mineseweepers: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/7C4EE0A75C134BFD90E23C1F67FEAEBD
for fleet torpedo boats: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/DB842B90D9144DFB8C916431097B15C9
for trawlers: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/61FE960F37F34C46B12DF3FEA6B82C6E
for destroyers: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/31618891F05C4FF687CC77C90B996680
for cargo ships: https://hdl.handle.net/21.12113/145CE711B57B4C67AEDE31216563B555
for pathfinders: drawings are missing, for some details"http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-never-built-german-minefield.html

The article including search guide you can find on: https://globalmaritimehistory.com/the-dutch-shipyard-kon-mij-de-schelde-1875-1970-and-her-archives/

 

[ptdockyard]

Thanks so much for posting the Kreuzer 1938 and the TA7 The TA-7 looks like the Norwegian Ålesund-class destroyer and I think those would have earlier been designated ZN-4 and ZN-5. These are the first plans I have seen of these ships aside from simple side views. Very helpful! I'll add it to my 1/1200 projects.

The Panzerschiffe D4a with 4 turrets is new to me. Where can I find more details?

Dave G

 

[alexi]

Thanks so much for posting the Kreuzer 1938 and the TA7 The TA-7 looks like the Norwegian Ålesund-class destroyer and I think those would have earlier been designated ZN-4 and ZN-5. These are the first plans I have seen of these ships aside from simple side views. Very helpful! I'll add it to my 1/1200 projects.

The Panzerschiffe D4a with 4 turrets is new to me. Where can I find more details?

Dave G

For some information about panzerschiff "D" plans, i think this very old forum can help you.

Read a bit more you can find a bit mention about unfortunate panzerschiff "F" before placed by new battleship design.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Thanks so much for posting the Kreuzer 1938 and the TA7 The TA-7 looks like the Norwegian Ålesund-class destroyer and I think those would have earlier been designated ZN-4 and ZN-5. These are the first plans I have seen of these ships aside from simple side views. Very helpful! I'll add it to my 1/1200 projects.

The Panzerschiffe D4a with 4 turrets is new to me. Where can I find more details?

Dave G

No problemo.

And you are correct in that assessment. It is ex-ZN4/ZN5, TA7/TA8 - "Ålesund-class". This is the original plan for the class, the main reason I got it being, of course, that it is highly indicative of TA7/TA8's internal layout.

I honestly wouldn't know. I did find some info on the displacement and dimensions of Neuentwurf I and II though.

 

[muttly]

german-navy.de has some drawings and specs if I understand what you are looking for.

 

[alexi]

Say... i remember BigRich said there're several Bismarck designs with triple turret and 16" guns, he pointed on Whitley German Warships book i think, one design with 12x15" guns and modified 8x16" guns in respond to Soviet order their Sovietsky Soyuz, any ideas?.

german-navy.de

While the sites is good for what you looking at ship history and their activities, there's not much about paper designs or any of these obscure Scharnhorst plans.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Say... i remember BigRich said there're several Bismarck designs with triple turret and 16" guns, he pointed on Whitley German Warships book i think, one design with 12x15" guns and modified 8x16" guns in respond to Soviet order their Sovietsky Soyuz, any ideas?.

german-navy.de

While the sites is good for what you looking at ship history and their activities, there's not much about paper designs or any of these obscure Scharnhorst plans.

I have also heard of a 4x3 38cm H-39 design (in the event that procurement of 40.6cm twins was not met in time - and stuff like that does happen...see the production of the 15cm/48 Tbts KC/36T), but nothing on 4x3 38cm Bismarck. I can potentially see a 4x3 30.5cm variant though. Unfortunately I don't know enough about German BB's to know the prelim design armaments beyond something like 4x2 35cm.

I have a pretty interesting source on German capital ships produced during the war:
German Capital Ships of the Second World War by Siegfried Breyer and Miroslaw Skwiot. Those names alone, should you recognize them, are merit enough to warrant a purchase.
More relevant to your last line, in said book I found a mention that one of the prelim armament choices for Scharn was to be 3x3 30.5cm which may actually lend credence to the battleship Odin in World of Warships, should you know it.

 

[Grey Havoc]

I found a mention that one of the prelim armament choices for Scharn was to be 3x3 30.5cm which may actually lend credence to the battleship Odin in World of Warships, should you know it.

Nine 12 inch guns, that would have given the Admiralty even more of a headache!

 

[alexi]

The forum above i linked mentioned about 30cm proposal panzerschiff D, said only two or three because they were ruled out in favor of 28cm guns (due to availability and in production), 26.500-30000 tons range design with 9x30cm can be up-gunned for 6x33cm or 35cm in twin mounts, at least some proof about Odin origin although she is 90% Wargaming creation (partly hull being enlarge D3a hull and complete makeup structures but pretty German-ish overall).

I have also heard of a 4x3 38cm H-39 design

Yes, i heard this one about modified H-class with triple 15" turret, but no luck about their information.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

The forum above i linked mentioned about 30cm proposal panzerschiff D, said only two or three because they were ruled out in favor of 28cm guns (due to availability and in production), 26.500-30000 tons range design with 9x30cm can be up-gunned for 6x33cm or 35cm in twin mounts, at least some proof about Odin origin although she is 90% Wargaming creation (partly hull being enlarge D3a hull and complete makeup structures but pretty German-ish overall).

I have also heard of a 4x3 38cm H-39 design

Yes, i heard this one about modified H-class with triple 15" turret, but no luck about their information.

WG butchering designs for little good reason, a ride that never ends.

Looks like we're stuck with Pommern as our representation, poor as it is.

To all others:
I've received an email informing me of the intention to digitize a whole slew of plans. Consisting of torpedo boats and destroyers, these should include the finale of the Flottentorpedoboot 1942 plans, Type 1937 series DD's, more Flottentorpedoboot 1941, the like.
Including some additional plans from abroad.
Will be posted as I receive them proper.

 

[muttly]

With the german love of twin barrel turrets I'm surprised of plans for triple heavy caliber ones.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

It seems the Kriegsmarine has its proponents of everything. For instance, during the discussion revolving around the return to the 12.8cm from the 15cm designs there were those who would have seen the...Type 1936B, I believe...with a mixed battery of 15cm singles forward and 12.8cm singles aft.

 

[alexi]

With the german love of twin barrel turrets I'm surprised of plans for triple heavy caliber ones.

They stuck with dual turrets due to ease of production and reliability, design new gun turrets would delay ship completion since you to go another routes of testing and approvals (could take about ~1.5-2 years), although various reasons like weight on triple 15cm/60 on K and N-class cruiser which pursue to create new "light-weight" 15cm/55 in dual turret or triple turret 28cm on panzerschiff (short length and save weight) etc. Can't really help because KM naval departments filled with many design committees who's bit self-centered themselves and often in disarrays.

 

[cattalonX]

https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=27202023&rand=64

a game bbs

 

[alexi]

Wow, the first one really match my image of how a German-type two-dual turret looks like, excellent good sir.

Also this give good explanation why quad-turret panzerschiff D have no super-firing turrets, same as triple turrets, only for save weight.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

View attachment 660952
View attachment 660953

View attachment 660954
View attachment 660955

https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=27202023&rand=64

a game bbs

I've seen those before on my searches through Bundesarchiv Invenio.
The French copypasta is particularly cursed.

With the german love of twin barrel turrets I'm surprised of plans for triple heavy caliber ones.

They stuck with dual turrets due to ease of production and reliability, design new gun turrets would delay ship completion since you to go another routes of testing and approvals (could take about ~1.5-2 years), although various reasons like weight on triple 15cm/60 on K and N-class cruiser which pursue to create new "light-weight" 15cm/55 in dual turret or triple turret 28cm on panzerschiff (short length and save weight) etc. Can't really help because KM naval departments filled with many design committees who's bit self-centered themselves and often in disarrays.

Or how about a 15cm/55 in a triple?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

ALCON,

Probably should add this here for those interested in the full-sized plans. If you intend to download them, I HIGHLY suggest you have some good internet. Included you will also find RM 25/256, full plans for Weser I. (The heavy cruiser Seydlitz conversion).

Germany - Sarcasticat's Home :) - Google Drive

drive.google.com

This link will be put in the OP.
I plan to make this thread a hub for all future plans I intend to share.
There are others I currently have from BDA but are not yet uploaded. I'll upload them when I can.

 

[alexi]

Amazing works, am really curious just how difficult and how long for you guys to take these scans?

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Amazing works, am really curious just how difficult and how long for you guys to take these scans?

Considering I live in the US, I have to have someone in Germany get them for me. He requests that the BDA Freiburg digitize them, and he passes them along to me.
But based on the rate I've been receiving scans, it must be difficult under the workload trying to recover from the swamp of requests after COVID.

 

[ceccherini]

View attachment 660952
View attachment 660953

View attachment 660954
View attachment 660955

https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?tid=27202023&rand=64

a game bbs

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

 

[alexi]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

I thought those were 38cm quadruples?
And that really is a 53cm/45 twin?

 

[ceccherini]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

Gun length is shown to be 21,25 meters, 21,25/45= 0,47222. The closest gun envisioned in a German battleship is a 48 cm so I assume the gun in the twin turret drawing is actually a 48 cm L44

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

Gun length is shown to be 21,25 meters, 21,25/45= 0,47222. The closest gun envisioned in a German battleship is a 48 cm so I assume the gun in the twin turret drawing is actually a 48 cm L44

That sounds more realistic.

 

[alexi]

Assuming all those quad turrets are 38cm, two pictures above have shorter barrel length and give me result of a quad 35cm (or 35.5cm something like that).

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Assuming all those quad turrets are 38cm, two pictures above have shorter barrel length and give me result of a quad 35cm (or 35.5cm something like that).

The barrels are shorter? Hmm. Probably 35cm, a caliber experimented with.

 

[awhalen61]

WG butchering designs for little good reason, a ride that never ends.

Looks like we're stuck with Pommern as our representation, poor as it is.

I have heard rumors that Hitler demanded Schlachtschiff N carry triple 15" turrets if the quad 16" on the H class were ineffective. However I have not seen any sources to corroborate this as of now, even when going through all of the naval affairs conferences with Hitler which were published in Brassey's Naval Annual 1948. Obviously it does not rule out this supposed request, of course.

 

[cattalonX]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

Gun length is shown to be 21,25 meters, 21,25/45= 0,47222. The closest gun envisioned in a German battleship is a 48 cm so I assume the gun in the twin turret drawing is actually a 48 cm L44

Well ，the gun length in that picture is with out breech·····
If we measure the picture，twin turrets full gun length is 23.96 meters
Quadruple turret full gun length is 21.126 meters

 

[ceccherini]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

Gun length is shown to be 21,25 meters, 21,25/45= 0,47222. The closest gun envisioned in a German battleship is a 48 cm so I assume the gun in the twin turret drawing is actually a 48 cm L44

well ，the gun length in that picture is with out breech·····

You're right, I've reach the very same conclusion because the barbette diameter of the quadruple turret drawings is far too great even by German standard to be for 38 cm or 35 cm guns. Those are 40,6 cm guns and so the twin turret must be also armed with something larger than a 48 cm gun because is reasonable to assume that all the drawings measured the gun length in the same manner. Also 1938 is the design year of the Gerät 36 53 cm gun, so I'm inclined to believe 21" gun are shown. My guess is the drawings are referred to private krupp studies on the possibility of upgunning the H39 as Hitler demanded from the very beginning of the design. I remember Hitler pushed on larger guns, Reader on more 16", the drawings seems to reflect this confrontation. Ultimately, as the priority shift to get all 6 ship before the planned start date of the next major war, H39 emerged as underarmed and underarmored giants.

 

[Nick Sumner]

There were a slew of Krupp heavy gun designs finalised in 1942. I believe the quad turrets are mountings for the 16 inch type of gun as to be fitted in twin turrets to the H39 design. They are marked as C34. The 40cm SKC 34 was the Krupp name for their 40.6 cm design. The twin turrets are most probably the 21 inch (53 cm) Gerat 36. Hence the designation C/36g.

Great finds by the way! Thank you!

 

[_Sarcasticat_]

Totally new for me, amazing finding, thank you so much. The twin turrets drawing seems to show a 48 cm L45 gun.

NGA posters said is 53cm/L45, the rest are 40cm/L52 guns in various quad turrets.

Gun length is shown to be 21,25 meters, 21,25/45= 0,47222. The closest gun envisioned in a German battleship is a 48 cm so I assume the gun in the twin turret drawing is actually a 48 cm L44

Well ，the gun length in that picture is with out breech·····
If we measure the picture，twin turrets full gun length is 23.96 meters
Quadruple turret full gun length is 21.126 meters

I believe Germans measured the caliber length of their guns on an overall measurement compared to other countries which did it on barrel length. So 23.96/45 does equal 0.53 or 53 which would indicate 53cm based on the established formula. Same for the quads with the 21.126 meter guns which equal .406 or 40.6(cm).

There were a slew of Krupp heavy gun designs finalised in 1942. I believe the quad turrets are mountings for the 16 inch type of gun as to be fitted in twin turrets to the H39 design. They are marked as C34. The 40cm SKC 34 was the Krupp name for their 40.6 cm design. The twin turrets are most probably the 21 inch (53 cm) Gerat 36. Hence the designation C/36g.

Great finds by the way! Thank you!

Not quite sure because the Gerat 36 is still a /52-caliber weapon...but I can't rule out the possibility that this is just a cut-down variant to /45. There aren't just an unending amount of 53cm guns in German service after all. So...I agree!

Ty ty.

 

[alexi]

I have this piece here showing the proposed 45cm and 50cm in L/60 caliber in 1942, got from user named "Thoddy" from navweaps forums, i recalled Breyer said German proposed a numerous large gun with various caliber lengths.