KAI KF-21 Boramae (KFX Korean Indigenous Fighter program)

Umigami said:
Rafale has less string attach (much less ITAR components for example). We can operate them much more freely.
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Very true. But conversely, KF-21 is supposed to be the plane that could continue using American armaments after F-16s eventually retires, although those planes have plenty of time before they would.

Having no strings attached usually comes at a cost, since French/European armaments are - generally speaking - more expensive due to the different economies of scale, although one could also argue some of them are more expensive because they are also more capable, eg. Meteor.

Anyways, for a non-aligned country like Indonesia, it makes ton of sense to have an ITAR-free option, especially if there already is a history of sanction against it.
 
By the way, the designation of the radar has been revealed as APY-16K. Have no idea why they went with a Y instead of the usual G, but anyways. Maybe it was because they wanted to use 16, but since it has long been taken on the APG prefix, they've chosen APY instead? I'm not sure if that even makes sense, but I can't really think of any other reason. For example, Korean ECM pods like the ALQ-88K or -200K or AAQ-333 FLIR also doesn't overlap with American designations.

Anyways, seems like it's another case of butchering designation system definitions/creating ambiguity.
 
Umigami said:
When will Block 3 available to international market?
If Korean can't deliver it fast, China will dominate that "5th gen for non US allies / partners" with J35A for sure.
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I'm not sure in which markets they would compete in..
buying a J-35 doesn't just mean you're buying a stealthy plane, but it means buying into the China's sphere of influence too.
A majority of the current operators of the J-7, J-10 and FC-1 are countries that are unlikely to buy Korean or American in the first place.

I think the J-35 threatens Russian markets instead, for example, say Serbia.
 
helmutkohl said:
I'm not sure in which markets they would compete in..
buying a J-35 doesn't just mean you're buying a stealthy plane, but it means buying into the China's sphere of influence too.
A majority of the current operators of the J-7, J-10 and FC-1 are countries that are unlikely to buy Korean or American in the first place.

I think the J-35 threatens Russian markets instead, for example, say Serbia.
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I think those rich arab countries will be interested in J35A if they still can't get their hands on F35.

The only one that can compete here is stealth Boramae in my opinion
 
Boramae can't truly compete, because it shares the same problem as F-35 - US IP. And US can block sells for the same reason it blocks F-35.
China provides entirely independent logistic and political chain, unlike KF-21.
 
Anduriel said:
Boramae can't truly compete, because it shares the same problem as F-35 - US IP. And US can block sells for the same reason it blocks F-35.
China provides entirely independent logistic and political chain, unlike KF-21.
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Yeah, but Boramae is less capable and less stealthy (even for block 3) than F35 which could make US less strict on its sale.

Actually US could "promote" Boramae as a way to compete with J35 on market and minimize Chinese influence.
 
Anduriel said:
Boramae can't truly compete, because it shares the same problem as F-35 - US IP. And US can block sells for the same reason it blocks F-35.
China provides entirely independent logistic and political chain, unlike KF-21.
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Difference being "only" F414s instead of top line F135 and the baked-in RAM+antennas.

There's probably a much lower threshold for the US to allow selling some F414s than buying an entire F35.
 
Umigami said:
Yeah, but Boramae is less capable and less stealthy (even for block 3) than F35 which could make US less strict on its sale.

Actually US could "promote" Boramae as a way to compete with J35 on market and minimize Chinese influence.
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I guess it's the same as with f-35 itself - countries that seriously consider j-35, will buy it because it's Chinese.

It's possible to fight Russia on export markets (Korea+CAATSA as a cheaper, but American-aligned alternative to France), but Chinese geopolitical package, there where it's accepted, is just beyond KF-21's league.
 
Anduriel said:
Boramae can't truly compete, because it shares the same problem as F-35 - US IP. And US can block sells for the same reason it blocks F-35.
China provides entirely independent logistic and political chain, unlike KF-21.
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Boramae could succeed in markets where the US won't sell the F-35, but would still prefer that customer stays in the "western" sphere of military acquisition.

This includes Thailand, Malaysia, Qatar, etc.
 
FighterJock said:
I could also see sales in other Middle East countries and quite possibly Africa if KAI can get the indigenous engines ready instead of relying on the General Electric's.
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Keep in mind that there are many other export-controlled Western LRUs besides the engine, such as AMAD, EVMU, ARR, ejection seat, landing gears, MEL, BRU, Oxy, ECS, CSA, integrated weapons, etc
 
So it would need a total redesign to an Internationalised variant of the Boramae removing the banned systems if KAI really want to export it elsewhere other than the usual suspect countrys.
 
FighterJock said:
So it would need a total redesign to an Internationalised variant of the Boramae removing the banned systems if KAI really want to export it elsewhere other than the usual suspect countrys.
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Even if possible, replacing and integrating export-controlled equipments with export-free equipments would reduce price competitiveness compared to other competing fighter jets.
 
It's outright not possible, nor Korea is France. It doesn't make sense to even bother - by default Kore option is still going to be an US-aligned version.
 
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1000 flight in just over 2 years is more than a flight a day. This kind of sustained schedule would better some local airlines reliability ;)

Congrats to KAI team. It demonstrates perfectly the level of leverage you get with uninterrupted design and production instead of leaving your design bureau dormant for years like a Grims/Perrault princess.
 
TomcatViP said:
1000 flight in just over 2 years is more than a flight a day
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Yes - that's a solid pace. Much better than Eurofighter in the 90s and similar to Rafale's early test campaign (950+ flights from May 1991 - Oct 1993).

That works out to 90 test flights/year for each of the 6 KF-21 prototypes... solid. Seems like a good move to have so many prototypes, versus running a tight test program like Dassault was forced to do for budget reasons (which meant each Rafale prototype flew more frequently - 120-150 flights/year - but with only 4 prototypes).
 
Doesn´t fit the equation. 6 prototypes are not produced in a single months. I see the rate being higher that the average in your output.

Also, when Rafale was flight tested, the teams at Dassault had bagged the the Super Etendard , III NG (and other oddities), 2K, 4K and ACX (more or less in that order in the previous decade and a half).
 
TomcatViP said:
1000 flight in just over 2 years is more than a flight a day. This kind of sustained schedule would better some local airlines reliability ;)

Congrats to KAI team. It demonstrates perfectly the level of leverage you get with uninterrupted design and production instead of leaving your design bureau dormant for years like a Grims/Perrault princess.
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To go along with that here are some dates and numbers for the T-50
  • 2002/08/20: First flight
    • 183 Days
  • 2003/02/19: First supersonic flight
    • 823 Days
  • 2005/05/22: 1000th flight
    • 898 Days
  • 2007/11/06: 2000th flight
    • 1233 Days
  • 2011/03/23: 3000th flight

Korean language sources:
www.chosun.com

“기술도 돈도 없는데 웬 비행기? 모두 반대할 때 30년 후를 생각… 그렇게 T-50 개발 시작”

기술도 돈도 없는데 웬 비행기 모두 반대할 때 30년 후를 생각 그렇게 T-50 개발 시작 K방산 신화를 만든 사람들 2 T-50′ 개발 주도한 전영훈 박사
www.chosun.com www.chosun.com
www.g-enews.com

"20년 전 2월19일, T-50 초음속으로 날았다" - 글로벌이코노믹

국내 최초 국산 초음속 훈련기인 ‘T-50 골든이글(Golden Eagle)’이 시험비행에서 초음속을 돌파한 지 20년을 맞는다.한국항공우주산업(KAI)은 최근 발간한 사보를 통해 20년 전 당시 T-50 항공기의 첫 초음속 비행 성공을 다룬 기사를 소개했다.지난 2003년 2월 19일
www.g-enews.com www.g-enews.com
v.daum.net

인도네시아, T-50 우선협상대상 선정..의미와 전망

[아시아경제 양낙규 기자]인도네시아 국방부가 12일 훈련기 도입 사업의 우선협상대상자에 T-50 고등훈련기를 생산하는 한국의 한국항공우주산업(KAI)을 사실상 선정했다.정부 관계자는 이날 "인도네시아 국방부가 KAI에 대해 우선협상대상자에 준하는 대우를 하겠다고 오늘 오후 통보해왔다"면서 "인도네시아 국방부와 KAI가 향후 9개월 안에 양해각서(MOU)
v.daum.net v.daum.net

Compare that to the KF-21
  • 2022/07/19: First flight
    • 182 Days (Interestingly close to the T-50)
  • 2023/01/17: First supersonic flight
    • 681 Days (So they got quicker)
  • 2024/12/29: 1000th flight
Underated institutional knowledge for aerospace development compared to designing to meet requirements is the knowhow for testing and qualifying that the design meets those requirements. In interviews with KAI and Korean Airforce personel that aspect of lessons learned for the T-50 programme is repeatedly mentioned.
 
TomcatViP said:
6 prototypes are not produced in a single months. I see the rate being higher that the average in your output.
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My math accounts for that as I take each prototype’s date of first flight and calculate their average age.

So for example the 6 KF-21 prototypes have an average age of 1.8 years, with a total across the fleet of 6 x 1.8 = 10.9 years. Dividing 1000 flights by 10.9 years equals an average of ~90 test flights/year per KF-21 prototype.
 

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