KAI KF-21 Boramae (KFX Korean Indigenous Fighter program)

totoro said:
They're going quite public with the whole process and details of development. More so than other planes out there in the making. Makes you wonder if at least part of the reason is PR push to try to export the plane to as many countries as possible.
Click to expand...
Could be an indirect message to the Indonesian partners.. 'pay up!'. lol

although Indonesia might have some legitimate concerns about the project. I've read somewhere the reason is due to issues of sharing of information and technology not being met.

Besides Korea and Indonesia, what other potential markets are there?

Eastern European countries? (Poland opted for Korean tanks recently)
Middle Eastern countries? (it seems most already have either chosen F-35s or a Eurocanard)
other asian countries? (Philippines operates some Golden Eagles)
 
helmutkohl said:
totoro said:
They're going quite public with the whole process and details of development. More so than other planes out there in the making. Makes you wonder if at least part of the reason is PR push to try to export the plane to as many countries as possible.
Click to expand...
Could be an indirect message to the Indonesian partners.. 'pay up!'. lol

although Indonesia might have some legitimate concerns about the project. I've read somewhere the reason is due to issues of sharing of information and technology not being met.

Besides Korea and Indonesia, what other potential markets are there?

Eastern European countries? (Poland opted for Korean tanks recently)
Middle Eastern countries? (it seems most already have either chosen F-35s or a Eurocanard)
other asian countries? (Philippines operates some Golden Eagles)
Click to expand...


I think a license built KF-X for the RAAF here in Australia would compliment the F-35 well, create jobs and push our aerospace further especially with our new loyal wingman program.

But I guess it's too late now, the loyal wingman will do it's job.
 
Bounce said:
helmutkohl said:
totoro said:
They're going quite public with the whole process and details of development. More so than other planes out there in the making. Makes you wonder if at least part of the reason is PR push to try to export the plane to as many countries as possible.
Click to expand...
Could be an indirect message to the Indonesian partners.. 'pay up!'. lol

although Indonesia might have some legitimate concerns about the project. I've read somewhere the reason is due to issues of sharing of information and technology not being met.

Besides Korea and Indonesia, what other potential markets are there?

Eastern European countries? (Poland opted for Korean tanks recently)
Middle Eastern countries? (it seems most already have either chosen F-35s or a Eurocanard)
other asian countries? (Philippines operates some Golden Eagles)
Click to expand...


I think a license built KF-X for the RAAF here in Australia would compliment the F-35 well, create jobs and push our aerospace further especially with our new loyal wingman program.

But I guess it's too late now, the loyal wingman will do it's job.
Click to expand...
A possibility but the juice would probably be not worth the squeeze IMO. There is not enough with the KF-X that the F-35A can't do.

I have read more talk about trying to get involved with Japan in the F-3 project though. Given the specs so far, I can see why the Aussies would be sort of keen to get involved and reap some of said benefits.
 
helmutkohl said:
totoro said:
They're going quite public with the whole process and details of development. More so than other planes out there in the making. Makes you wonder if at least part of the reason is PR push to try to export the plane to as many countries as possible.
Click to expand...
Could be an indirect message to the Indonesian partners.. 'pay up!'. lol

although Indonesia might have some legitimate concerns about the project. I've read somewhere the reason is due to issues of sharing of information and technology not being met.

Besides Korea and Indonesia, what other potential markets are there?

Eastern European countries? (Poland opted for Korean tanks recently)
Middle Eastern countries? (it seems most already have either chosen F-35s or a Eurocanard)
other asian countries? (Philippines operates some Golden Eagles)
Click to expand...

Eastern European countries would most likely buy the F-35s given the recent trend.

I think that there are more chances in the Middle East region considering that they traditionally have bought more equipment than they could efficiently/effectively operate, the F-35s not being sold there regardless of their demands and the sales of more sophisticated equipment to this region recently. I've also heard that the Sauds are considering to buy the Cheongung medium range SAM/ABM.

I don't think there are any Asian country whose defense budget is big enough to afford this jet, apart from Indonesia and Malaysia. Malaysia is already working on procuring new jets, though this program seems to be delayed indefinitely since couple of years ago due to their focus in modernization of their navy. Also if Indonesia is to remain in this program, their relationship with Malaysia could be an obstacle.

All in all, I think the biggest opportunities lie in the Middle East.
 
Cannonfodder43 said:
Bounce said:
helmutkohl said:
totoro said:
They're going quite public with the whole process and details of development. More so than other planes out there in the making. Makes you wonder if at least part of the reason is PR push to try to export the plane to as many countries as possible.
Click to expand...
Could be an indirect message to the Indonesian partners.. 'pay up!'. lol

although Indonesia might have some legitimate concerns about the project. I've read somewhere the reason is due to issues of sharing of information and technology not being met.

Besides Korea and Indonesia, what other potential markets are there?

Eastern European countries? (Poland opted for Korean tanks recently)
Middle Eastern countries? (it seems most already have either chosen F-35s or a Eurocanard)
other asian countries? (Philippines operates some Golden Eagles)
Click to expand...


I think a license built KF-X for the RAAF here in Australia would compliment the F-35 well, create jobs and push our aerospace further especially with our new loyal wingman program.

But I guess it's too late now, the loyal wingman will do it's job.
Click to expand...
A possibility but the juice would probably be not worth the squeeze IMO. There is not enough with the KF-X that the F-35A can't do.

I have read more talk about trying to get involved with Japan in the F-3 project though. Given the specs so far, I can see why the Aussies would be sort of keen to get involved and reap some of said benefits.
Click to expand...
Apart from all that, the KF-X would be too short legged for the Aussies. Also, given their usually high demands for performance and the fact that they spend gazillions in defense procurement, F-3 would be closer to what they want if they want anything apart from the F-35.
 
 
Probably no ram on the first vehicle. All RCS studies were probably done earlier and what's remaining is only the compliance of production methodology with design objectives.
Something that is not a priority on a prototype that would have first to open the flight domain.
 
That's interesting they put European missiles like the Meteor and IRIS-T mock ups next to it
I don't think South Korea uses the IRIS-T yet

also makes some kind of hi-lo (or is it a mid-lo?) mix of KFX and Gripen somewhat viable since they use the same F414 engines and likely the same weapons.
 
In aesthetical terms, a bit meh. Not bad, but so very conventional, and it labours under the same blemishes as the F-22: enormous unswept/untapered fins and a boat-like lower nose.
 
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This thing has all needed to be an hotrod: a relatively low dry weight (probably less than a Rafale), more power than a Rafale, higher roll rate than a Canard (no negative effects induced by the canards) and probably high alpha (see the geometry of the inlet boundary layer vent conduits on the forward fuselage).

I can't wait to see a demonstration flight at... Le Bourget 2023 or RIAT2022 ?
 
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TomcatViP said:
This thing has all needed to be an hotrod: a relatively low dry weight (probably less than a Rafale),
Click to expand...
Nope.
Rafale weighs 22k lbs.
KFX weighs 26k lbs.

But yeah, fully loaded with fuel, KFX will still have a better T/W ratio than a rafale.
42k lbs thrust / 38k lbs GTO for KFX vs.
34k lbs thrust / 33k lbs GTO for rafale
 
@Bhurki : Correct, I had a wrong number in mind for the empty weight. But isn't the 414 good for 22000lbf? Instead of 20k+lbf?

That would be 44/38 for GTOW?
 
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TomcatViP said:
@Bhurki : Correct, I had a wrong numbers in mind for the empty weight. But isn't the 414 good for 22000lbf? Instead of 20k+lbf?

That would be 44/38 for GTOW?
Click to expand...
You got me. I understated that so it doesn't sound too cool. :D

Also, i don't think it'll be possible to avoid weight creep in upcoming blocks, so it might end up being heavier than 26k lbs. Its basically an F35 if the F35 was made only for the Air Force, specifically for air to air roles. (if it were less chubby).

Hell, it might even supercruise( in the strict sense of the word, and not as LMT defines it for F22) considering the 2x 13k lbs dry thrust.
 
Some Infos about KF-X AESAR Prototype are revealed in recently published paper.

Its TRM output would be 41 dBm(≈ 12.58 W) and its scan angle is ±70°.
Also, its aperture size is 800 mm.

Source
Hwang In-Su, Lee Yu-Ri, Kim Jong-Pil, Jang Sung-Hoon, Kim Seon-Joo. Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar. J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng. Sci. 2021;32(2):127-143.
doi.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar

The results of the fabrication of active electronically scanned array (AESA) antennas with low-profile, low-weight, wide-scan, and thermal stability characteristics for aircraft-mounted radar are described. To reduce the size and weight of the antenna, a transmit–receive block is constructed in...
doi.org doi.org

Park Hongwoo. Gain Over Temperature (G/T) Calculation and Measurement for Airborne AESA Antennas. J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng. Sci. 2021;32(2):154-162.
doi.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Gain Over Temperature (G/T) Calculation and Measurement for Airborne AESA Antennas

This paper describes the calculation and measurement method of gain over temperature (G/T), which is the main characteristic of an airborne active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna. Accordingly, we calculated the G/T of an AESA antenna based on earlier approaches. Then, we measured the...
doi.org doi.org
 
Frogfigther said:
Some Infos about KF-X AESAR Prototype are revealed in recently published paper.

Its TRM output would be 41 dBm(≈ 12.58 W) and its scan angle is ±70°.
Also, its aperture size is 800 mm.

Source
Hwang In-Su, Lee Yu-Ri, Kim Jong-Pil, Jang Sung-Hoon, Kim Seon-Joo. Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar. J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng. Sci. 2021;32(2):127-143.
doi.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar

The results of the fabrication of active electronically scanned array (AESA) antennas with low-profile, low-weight, wide-scan, and thermal stability characteristics for aircraft-mounted radar are described. To reduce the size and weight of the antenna, a transmit–receive block is constructed in...
doi.org doi.org

Park Hongwoo. Gain Over Temperature (G/T) Calculation and Measurement for Airborne AESA Antennas. J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng. Sci. 2021;32(2):154-162.
doi.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Gain Over Temperature (G/T) Calculation and Measurement for Airborne AESA Antennas

This paper describes the calculation and measurement method of gain over temperature (G/T), which is the main characteristic of an airborne active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna. Accordingly, we calculated the G/T of an AESA antenna based on earlier approaches. Then, we measured the...
doi.org doi.org
Click to expand...

Thanks. It's interesting.

Mainly on the Noise figure. Unfortunately for range prediction it's bit difficult as there is no indication (or maybe i just cant read Korea :x) On whether that 13 Watt is Average or Peak. However assuming it's peak power and with 7.7 KW of cooling capacity previously revealed from HANWHA presentation. The radar would be limited to 1.8 KW of Average power. This assume 1 microseconds of pulsewidth would indicate PRF of 130 KHz, a Medium PRF Waveform and 13% of duty cycle.

The range is then would be about 133 Km for 90% probability of target detection. Better than APG-83 but below APG-79.

KFX-Radar-3182021.png

And this assumes 0.025 seconds of beam dwell time... corresponds to 3 seconds of scanning time. If the beam dwell time is allowed to increase by the factor of 2 (0.05 seconds/beam) Or 6 seconds of scanning time, the range would increase by factor of 1.4 times or about 184 km.
 
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stealthflanker said:
Frogfigther said:
Some Infos about KF-X AESAR Prototype are revealed in recently published paper.

Its TRM output would be 41 dBm(≈ 12.58 W) and its scan angle is ±70°.
Also, its aperture size is 800 mm.

Source
Hwang In-Su, Lee Yu-Ri, Kim Jong-Pil, Jang Sung-Hoon, Kim Seon-Joo. Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar. J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng. Sci. 2021;32(2):127-143.
doi.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Design and Implementation of an X-Band Low-Profile Active Electronically Scanned Array for Airborne Radar

The results of the fabrication of active electronically scanned array (AESA) antennas with low-profile, low-weight, wide-scan, and thermal stability characteristics for aircraft-mounted radar are described. To reduce the size and weight of the antenna, a transmit–receive block is constructed in...
doi.org doi.org

Park Hongwoo. Gain Over Temperature (G/T) Calculation and Measurement for Airborne AESA Antennas. J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng. Sci. 2021;32(2):154-162.
doi.org

J. Korean Inst. Electromagn. Eng.: Gain Over Temperature (G/T) Calculation and Measurement for Airborne AESA Antennas

This paper describes the calculation and measurement method of gain over temperature (G/T), which is the main characteristic of an airborne active electronically scanned array (AESA) antenna. Accordingly, we calculated the G/T of an AESA antenna based on earlier approaches. Then, we measured the...
doi.org doi.org
Click to expand...

Thanks. It's interesting.

Mainly on the Noise figure. Unfortunately for range prediction it's bit difficult as there is no indication (or maybe i just cant read Korea :x) On whether that 13 Watt is Average or Peak. However assuming it's peak power and with 7.7 KW of cooling capacity previously revealed from HANWHA presentation. The radar would be limited to 1.8 KW of Average power. This assume 1 microseconds of pulsewidth would indicate PRF of 130 KHz, a Medium PRF Waveform and 13% of duty cycle.

The range is then would be about 133 Km for 90% probability of target detection. Better than APG-83 but below APG-79.

View attachment 653005

And this assumes 0.025 seconds of beam dwell time... corresponds to 3 seconds of scanning time. If the beam dwell time is allowed to increase by the factor of 2 (0.05 seconds/beam) Or 6 seconds of scanning time, the range would increase by factor of 1.4 times or about 184 km.
Click to expand...

7.7 kW is the power capacity for reduced size(992 TRMs) AESA MFR made for the verification.
It means that KF-X Prototype AESA MFR have bigger cooling capacity.

Also, Google Translation works quite good for the korean website I think :)

Source
m.blog.naver.com

KF-X AESA 레이다 - 기본모델부터 탑재시제까지

새로 정리해서 만들어봤습니다. 그리고 KF-X에 탑재하는 모델은 T/R 모듈 갯수가 20% 늘어나서 1200여...
m.blog.naver.com m.blog.naver.com
 
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Whatif that bird was the "perfect middleground" between the F-22 and F-35 ?
- a miniature F-22 thus much less expensive
- still with two engines and not compromised by VSTOL / tri-service like the F-35...
- dare I say, with two F414 it looks like a Super Hornet done right and stealth...
- and on top of that, alternatively, it has the potential to become a true "stealth F-15" at lower expense than the F-22...

- If the Korean pull that one, they may have between their hands the "perfect miniature F-22" to replace all the Western twin-jet fighters: F-15, Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon...
- leaving the F-35 replacing "only" the F-16s ?

Imagine, if USAF bought some of them after the F-15EX !!
 
Archibald said:
Whatif that bird was the "perfect middleground" between the F-22 and F-35 ?
- a miniature F-22 thus much less expensive
- still with two engines and not compromised by VSTOL / tri-service like the F-35...
- dare I say, with two F414 it looks like a Super Hornet done right and stealth...
- and on top of that, alternatively, it has the potential to become a true "stealth F-15" at lower expense than the F-22...

- If the Korean pull that one, they may have between their hands the "perfect miniature F-22" to replace all the Western twin-jet fighters: F-15, Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon...
- leaving the F-35 replacing "only" the F-16s ?

Imagine, if USAF bought some of them after the F-15EX !!
Click to expand...
some people in that thread about a new US Fighter
joked that the KFX could be just that!

something that is newer than 4th gen aircraft, but may cost less to operate than the F-35 and F-22
I say its potentially there!

My main concern is some of the potential ban on technologies. Korea has recently faced a few issues

for example IRC, when Argentina requested to buy Golden Eagles, KAI was prevented to do so by the UK as it used some UK parts (nnot sure which)
 
helmutkohl said:
Archibald said:
Whatif that bird was the "perfect middleground" between the F-22 and F-35 ?
- a miniature F-22 thus much less expensive
- still with two engines and not compromised by VSTOL / tri-service like the F-35...
- dare I say, with two F414 it looks like a Super Hornet done right and stealth...
- and on top of that, alternatively, it has the potential to become a true "stealth F-15" at lower expense than the F-22...

- If the Korean pull that one, they may have between their hands the "perfect miniature F-22" to replace all the Western twin-jet fighters: F-15, Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon...
- leaving the F-35 replacing "only" the F-16s ?

Imagine, if USAF bought some of them after the F-15EX !!
Click to expand...
some people in that thread about a new US Fighter
joked that the KFX could be just that!

something that is newer than 4th gen aircraft, but may cost less to operate than the F-35 and F-22
I say its potentially there!

My main concern is some of the potential ban on technologies. Korea has recently faced a few issues

for example IRC, when Argentina requested to buy Golden Eagles, KAI was prevented to do so by the UK as it used some UK parts (nnot sure which)
Click to expand...
5 iems IIRC, of which the ejection seat from MB the most significant.
 
On the Block-1 of KFX... I'm curious if Korea have any "Threshold" value for Radar Cross Section ?

Say the block I's RCS must not exceed how much square meter in certain angles, frequency and configuration.

Like one calling it "Semi-stealth" but no real definition or even limits on how low could it go.

Potentially however. flying clean some -20 to -30 dB could be achieved in 3 cm wavelength and frontal aspect some 330-45 degrees.
 
Trident said:
In aesthetical terms, a bit meh. Not bad, but so very conventional, and it labours under the same blemishes as the F-22: enormous unswept/untapered fins and a boat-like lower nose.
Click to expand...
Well, boat-like lower nose is pretty much a 5 gen LO trait - you can see it on F22, F-35, Su-57, J-20 and other projects. Though I also wonder why such big fins with small moving pars istead of full-moving but smaller fins like Su-57 or J-20?
 
Frogfigther said:
Its TRM output would be 41 dBm(≈ 12.58 W) and its scan angle is ±70°.
Click to expand...
That's quite strange tbh. Usually max useful beam steering angle for AESA is considered to be 60 degrees, and even there effectiveness is quite heavily degraded. By common cos rule at 70 degrees it won't be useful for anything meaningful at all.
 
Company officials told Janes that a prototype of the system was delivered to aircraft manufacturer Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) in the second half of 2020 to equip the KF-X prototypes currently being assembled at KAI headquarters in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province. The first prototype is expected to be formally rolled out in April.
Company officials told Janes that a prototype of the system was delivered to aircraft manufacturer Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) in the second half of 2020 to equip the KF-X prototypes currently being assembled at KAI headquarters in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province. The first prototype is expected to be formally rolled out in April.
Click to expand...

LIG Nex1 delivers EW self-protection system prototype for KF-X fighter aircraft

South Korean defence company LIG Nex1 has developed an electronic warfare (EW) self-protection system for integration with the Korean Fighter eXperimental (KF-X) fighter...
www.janes.com www.janes.com
 
Its basically an F35 if the F35 was made only for the Air Force, specifically for air to air roles. (if it were less chubby).
Click to expand...

This. Exactly. It is kind of F-35 done right for USAF (no VSTOL + naval + stealth difficult mix) - with the Superbug good enough F414s & twin-engine, for the USN.

Drat, if it was navalized, it would fall into a kind of "soft spot" between a NATF, a Tomcat, a Hornet and a Super Hornet... making it (kind of) the aircraft the USN wanted and needed circa 1993 - before the Superbug and before the JAST !
 
FighterJock said:
Frogfigther said:
KF-X prototype is likely to roll out in April 9th KST

www.munhwa.com

9일 KF-X 시제1호기 출고식…내년 5월 비행테스트 성공이 열쇠

방한 인니 국방장관 KF-X 분담금 10% 축소, 50억 달러 차관, 현지 생산라인 설비 한국 부담 요구설 무성 F-1..
www.munhwa.com
Click to expand...

April 9th cannot come fast enough. By the way anyone know what squadrons are earmarked to get the KF-X?
Click to expand...
It's on 14:30 to be exact.

Those which operate (K)F-5E/F and F-16PBU would receive these new birds. Some of those F-5s are being rplaced with TA-50 and FA-50 so the likes of 1st FW are probably not gonna receive any KF-X. That would mean 10th, 18th and 19th FW are those which are likely to get their jets replaced with KF-X.
 
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www.munhwa.com

9일 KF-X 시제1호기 출고식…내년 5월 비행테스트 성공이 열쇠

방한 인니 국방장관 KF-X 분담금 10% 축소, 50억 달러 차관, 현지 생산라인 설비 한국 부담 요구설 무성 F-1..
www.munhwa.com

Indonesia invited to attend the roll out ceremony
Indonesia requested their share of KFX be reduced by 10%, 5 billion won in loans (to be used in other sectors such as agriculture), cooperation on a joint submarine project, and a long range air to ground missile implemented

it would be interesting when Indonesia gets both those joint Korean subs and Japanese frigates. Japanese and Korean weapons side by side :eek: :cool:

also on that site they mentioned fears of the new F-15EX competing with KFX for RoKAF
 
helmutkohl said:
www.munhwa.com

9일 KF-X 시제1호기 출고식…내년 5월 비행테스트 성공이 열쇠

방한 인니 국방장관 KF-X 분담금 10% 축소, 50억 달러 차관, 현지 생산라인 설비 한국 부담 요구설 무성 F-1..
www.munhwa.com

Indonesia invited to attend the roll out ceremony
Indonesia requested their share of KFX be reduced by 10%, 5 billion won in loans (to be used in other sectors such as agriculture), cooperation on a joint submarine project, and a long range air to ground missile implemented

it would be interesting when Indonesia gets both those joint Korean subs and Japanese frigates. Japanese and Korean weapons side by side :eek: :cool:

also on that site they mentioned fears of the new F-15EX competing with KFX for RoKAF
Click to expand...


The Japanese frigate wise.. might have bit of challenge particularly because there already other players in our warship tenders, namely Damen, Babcock and Fincantierri. I saw "8 frigates for potential purchase" but... doesnt seem to be any real move to that area. These contenders are trying to advance itself. the Damen and Babcock seems to have deeper footprint in our bureaucracy, while Fincantierri putting its leverage on Leonardo.

---------------

Anyway.. basically 2 Days until rollouts.
 
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