Iron Dome

[Scott Kenny]

Do we have reliable information on whether the last-ditch intercepts at very low altitude used tamir/Iron Dome interceptors (presumably making last-ditch/marginal/trash-fire engagements) or stunner/David's Sling interceptors?

It should be obvious that Iron Dome is optimized for very short range rocket artillery and mortar fire, and that Arrow and in particular David's Sling would have been doing the heavy lifting. But I just want to know what the Israeli tactics and doctrine are - do they hold fire, given that Tamir is of marginal benefit, or do they pop off some Tamir-trash fire and hope for the best given that the cost of a Tamir is so low and the cost is so marginal? Iron Dome should be linked in with the overall BMD system for aerospace defense, so they should be able to get good pre-warning and cueing to make the best shots possible if that was what their commanders decided.

With how cheap Tamirs are, my personal inclination would be to use it as the absolute last ditch against leakers. It's probably at the ragged edge of what Tamir is capable of engaging in terms of closing speed, but it's one last swing at the leaker before it hits.

Or hell, maybe Tamir is capable of regularly engaging Mach 3+ closing targets?

 

[Cjc]

I would be surprised if it couldn't considering the rockets hezbola and hamas send out are about that fast anyway.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

I would be surprised if it couldn't considering the rockets hezbola and hamas send out are about that fast anyway.

Stop bullshitting. They definitely aren't.

Actually, on second thoughts maybe it ain't that bad of you to stay spamming emotes because you clearly don't know shit to seriously comment on anything.

 

[Mr.T]

Iron dome is not designed to take on Balistic missiles , its a C-Ram for slow homemade rockets lobed at Israel most of the time.


''Unlike its predecessors, the new model is equipped with a re-entry vehicle which integrates a guidance system that controls four aerodynamic surfaces for endo-atmospheric flight, and thrusters which can adjust the vehicle’s exo-atmospheric trajectory, before it re-enters the earth’s atmosphere.
In order to gain higher precision, EMAD likely integrates inertial and satellite navigation systems with aerodynamic and propulsion control to guide the re-entry vehicle to its target. Potentially, with these capabilities also enable the reentry vehicle to dodge interceptors, posing a new challenge for missile defenses

The new missile is Iran’s first Maneuverable, Re-entry-Vehicle (MaRV)-equipped missile. In order to gain higher precision, EMAD likely integrates inertial navigation systems employed in previous weapons with satellite navigation systems, to compensate for the inertial navigation drift which develops over the long flight trajectory. Having such a navigation system on board also enables the re-entry vehicle to conduct evasive maneuvers, in an attempt to evade or confuse the enemy’s anti-missile systems and significantly to improve accuracy.''

Iran has positioned it’s ballistic missile force as a strategic arm capable of attacking Israel. Israel, with U.S. assistance and financial support, has developed and fielded a multi-layered missile-defense network based on the Arrow 2 missile defense system, employing IAI’s Arrow 2 Block 4 interceptors, capable of defeating Iran’s ballistic missiles of the Shahab 3 generation. Additional capabilities are currently in development with Arrow 3 and US THAAD ballistic missile interceptors, soon to be positioned in the Persian Gulf.

The Arrow 3 interceptors will be able to intercept Iran’s missiles in outer space, before the separation of re-entry vehicles. So far the main concern of missile defenses was eliminating the enemy missile’s before release of any decoys, thus avoiding the challenge of distinguishing the actual target from decoys. A re-entry vehicle that can dodge interceptors will pose a new challenge for missile defenses.

MaRV are not new US and the USSR tested these already in the 70's and Iran definetly has some

https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2023/07/removing-the-hype-from-irans-hypersonic-conqueror

Incoming and outgoing , likely not Iron dome but Arrow, David Sling etc , most getting trough.

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[Grey Havoc]

How Trump’s ‘Iron Dome for America’ upends four decades of nuclear doctrine - Breaking Defense

The inclusion of space-based interceptors is a particularly hard nut for Moscow to swallow, given long-standing Russian belief that such weapons are aimed at undercutting the country’s nuclear retaliatory capability following a US first strike.

breakingdefense.com

 

[Big_Zukini]

Iron dome is not designed to take on Balistic missiles , its a C-Ram for slow homemade rockets lobed at Israel most of the time.

Iron Dome may have started its life as a high end C-RAM but has since evolved to do a whole lot more. Though yes they are incapable of intercepting anything above an SRBM, included. They can at best intercept a CRBM/LRR.

 

[Josh_TN]

The new U.S. Administration’s use of the phrase “Iron Dome” should not be confused with the actual Israeli system; the two are unrelated.

 

[edwest4]

Among the proposals is the establishment of a "sensor layer' or low orbit satellites designed to pick out launches of HGVs and follow them.

Missile Defense Agency Moves Out Quickly on ‘Iron Dome’

The Missile Defense Agency is gathering ideas for President Trump’s “Iron Dome for America” and eyeing progress within the next two years.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Josh_TN]

Among the proposals is the establishment of a "sensor layer' or low orbit satellites designed to pick out launches of HGVs and follow them.

Missile Defense Agency Moves Out Quickly on ‘Iron Dome’

The Missile Defense Agency is gathering ideas for President Trump’s “Iron Dome for America” and eyeing progress within the next two years.

www.airandspaceforces.com

That is simply a regurgitation of systems already tested in orbit and waiting to go up this year as part of the PWSA program.

 

[edwest4]

That is simply a regurgitation of systems already tested in orbit and waiting to go up this year as part of the PWSA program.

Of course it is. As of 2010, the publishing of misleading information was officially authorized. I refuse to use any of the new words or terms introduced since then to identify false or misleading information.

 

[Grey Havoc]

There seem to be some interesting briefings, both off the record and otherwise, going on at the moment:

Iron Dome unsuitable as missile shield for US or Europe, officials say

The name Iron Dome, and President Trump's use of it, has led to confusion, according to developer Rafael.

www.defensenews.com

Trying to save 'their' part of the pie in some cases perhaps?

 

[Moose]

Iron Dome is a C-RAM system designed to protect a tight geographical area, it has no utility against the ballistic and hypersonic threats DOTUS has cited. This has led to some of his supporters claiming Iron Dome is just a name and what he's calling for is to buy Arrow or even to launch a full-on Star Wars 2, and other supporters to claim he really does want Iron Dome but only to cover specific areas in the US from...Mexican drones? Canadian artillery rockets? Presumably the specific areas are Trump Tower and Mar-A-Lago.

While the industry, media, and international partners wait for some kind of articulated strategy specifics, which could be a long wait, we're going to see articles like this.

 

[Dilandu]

launch a full-on Star Wars 2

This seems to be a most reasonable approach; by now, USA have a decisive advantage in space launch capabilities and very large satellite constellations (thanks to SpaceX). And at least for near future this superiority would hold. Capitalizing on it now, building a new generation of Brilliant Pebbles would be most practical solution for anti-missile defense.

 

[Josh_TN]

There seem to be some interesting briefings, both off the record and otherwise, going on at the moment:

Iron Dome unsuitable as missile shield for US or Europe, officials say

The name Iron Dome, and President Trump's use of it, has led to confusion, according to developer Rafael.

www.defensenews.com

Trying to save 'their' part of the pie in some cases perhaps?

It is not news that iron dome is of limited effectiveness. It is an anti artillery system not an ABM system. Any US defense would be based on completely different systems.

 

[edwest4]

It's definitely an ABM system designed to locate launches and track Mach 5 vehicles at suborbital altitudes.

 

[Josh_TN]

It's definitely an ABM system designed to locate launches and track Mach 5 vehicles at suborbital altitudes.

It’s a bullet point on a PowerPoint slide currently.

 

[edwest4]

It’s a bullet point on a PowerPoint slide currently.

Actually, the basic elements have been deployed. Back when it was relatively easy to intercept an incoming ICBM traveling through space, the enemy has switched to lower altitude forms of attack. As it did during the Cold War, the United States will spare no expense or development efforts. National survival depends on it.

 

[Justo Miranda]

A very expensive weapon is nothing without strategy and willingness to use it. The Israelis got tired of receiving rockets costing a few hundred dollars trying to intercept them with missiles worth several hundred thousand dollars, a game in which you can only lose. The V-1s and V-2s only stopped falling on London when the Allied troops occupied the launch bases. The best defense is a good offense and then another and another, until the bad guys get the message clear.

The first line of defense of our way of life is not radars but respect or fear, if necessary, we have been allowing ourselves to be humiliated for too long without responding.

 

[Big_Zukini]

Iron Dome has just undergone its "most extensive test so far".
Shooters:

1. BM-21 - 122mm.
2. PULS - 122mm.
3. Lahav - 306mm Extra CRBM.
4. Various LMs, drones, and cruise missile simulators.

* PULS is an Elbit Systems MRL. Lahav is a specialized version of it for the IDF.

The goals of the test were not specified but the heavy barrages experienced during Operation Swords of Iron (October 7th 2023 - today) were explicitly mentioned. The test was said to validate "new capabilities".
For what it's worth, this is the first test footage I see involving a CRBM. Although Iron Dome operationally destroyed multiple CRBMs so far, including from Lebanon and Gaza in the last decade, it is possible these were refined now to better close the gap between Iron Dome and David's Sling, and in turn let David's Sling be better focused on its BMD role.

Can someone shed some light on what the green and yellow colored bands symbolize?

 

[Dilandu]

Can someone shed some light on what the green and yellow colored bands symbolize?

Yellow band indicate "explosive" and/or "explosive propellant" presence. Two yellow bands indicate rocket motor and missile wahread as separate parts.

I'm not sure about green bands.

 

[Archibald]

This seems to be a most reasonable approach; by now, USA have a decisive advantage in space launch capabilities and very large satellite constellations (thanks to SpaceX). And at least for near future this superiority would hold. Capitalizing on it now, building a new generation of Brilliant Pebbles would be most practical solution for anti-missile defense.

Three times is the charm perhaps ? Before Smart Rocks / Brilliant Pebbles (in the 1980's) the ARPA explored the concept in the early 1960's.
Back then Convair called it "Space Patrol, Active Defense" and TRW "Random Barrage System". One estimation was, 100 000 interceptors needed to blunt a Soviet ICBM onslaught. This was, of course, with 1959 technology level.
At least back then they had Orion - the nuclear pulse spaceborne battleship - to lift the whole lot of 300 pound-each kinetic interceptor in just one launch. 100 000 * 300 pounds ? 15 000 tons ? no problem !

Would be curious to know whether SPAD / Brilliant Pebbles is more doable nowadays ?

 

[Dilandu]

Would be curious to know whether SPAD / Brilliant Pebbles is more doable nowadays ?

Definitedly. The whole technology already had been perfected in terms of klinetic interceptors, used on anti-ballistic missiles. Each kinetic kill vehicle from SM-3 or THAAD is a ready-available base for "Brilliant pebble" satellite. Of course, the outer shell (with solar panels, communication equipment, engines and propellant supply) would need to be developed, but again, the technology already available. And Starlink proves that very large, integrated, fully controllable constellations of satellites are perfectly realistic.

 

[NMaude]

I'm not sure about green bands.

I remember reading somewhere years ago that the yellow band indicates an explosive warhead, brown a rocket-motor, blue for an inert training round and green signified a chemical-warhead.

 

[Josh_TN]

Israel might use different color conventions.

 

[NMaude]

Israel might use different color conventions.

Good point especially given that in this particular application a chemical-warhead is totally inappriate (That assumes if Israel ever stocked chemical-munitions).