Imperial and Nationalist China Warship Projects

[cattalonX]

The Monfalcone designs especially the small one according to the sources had indeed started with a 15cm armed cruiser but the Chinese quickly saw that 2 twin mounts on such a hull was not a good idea despite the Austrian designers told them otherwise and issued a revised design with 2x2 12cm ones:

Monfalcone type Small Cruiser Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

Monfalcone type Small Cruiser Design V2 for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The number of funnels and thus the boiler arrangement too seems to have changed.

Where did you get this page? (Not that aI could read any of it...)

well It is a Chinese book，so written in Chinese········
Historical Materials of the Republic of China Navy

 

[Tzoli]

I assume there are no sketch drawings or table like data pages in it?

 

[cattalonX]

I assume there are no sketch drawings or table like data pages in it?

Most are contracts or regulations and telegrams，I will list some data page tomorrow，but yes ，no drawings

 

[cattalonX]

there are some data about the 1913 naval programs
but this just for extortion cost sheet，the real plan is much smaller(six 900tons large destroyer and twelve 400tons small destroyer,finally become the Monfalcone Cruisers}
Coastal Defense Fleet


Ocean Fleet

Future plan

 

[Tzoli]

Can you translate the armaments as well?

 

[cattalonX]

Can you translate the armaments as well?

Defense Fleet's 900ton large destroyer has three 4in guns and two unknown caliber torpedo tube
400ton destroyer has one 12-pounder and five 6-pounder ，also two unknown caliber torpedo tube（maybe like earlier STT destroyer ）
85ton torpedo boat was three 3-pounder three torpedo tube
submarine only have torpedo tube
Ocean Fleet
26000ton Battlecruiser 10 13.5in main gun ， 14 6in and six 3-pounder
10000ton Armored cruiser four 7.5in，six 6in and 25 3-pounder
5000ton and 3500ton Protected cruiser both have two 6in，The difference is secondary gun，5000ton has ten 4in and two 12-pounder，3500ton was six 4.7in and four 6-pounder
2000ton scout cruiser ：four 4in and twelve 12-pounder
Future plan
28000ton Battlecruiser 10 14in and 16 6in， 5 underwater 22in torpedo tube
3500ton scout cruiser 10 4.7in 2 underwater 21in torpedo tube
750ton torpedo ship 12 4in（maybe wrong，2 gun is more reasonable）and 4 12-pounder two 22in torpedo tube
740 ton submarine 8 18in torpedo tube
355ton submarine 6 18in torpedo tube
172ton submarine 4 18in torpedo tube

 

[alexi]

10 guns armed battlecruisers? that's a bit bold and ambitious.

 

[Dilandu]

10 guns armed battlecruisers? that's a bit bold and ambitious.

Er, German "Moltke"-class was ten-gun also, and Russian "Izmail"-class was twelve-gun.

 

[Dilandu]

Defense Fleet's 900ton large destroyer has three 4in guns and two unknown caliber torpedo tube
400ton destroyer has one 12-pounder and five 6-pounder ，also two unknown caliber torpedo tube（maybe like earlier STT destroyer ）
85ton torpedo boat was three 3-pounder three torpedo tube
submarine only have torpedo tube
Ocean Fleet
26000ton Battlecruiser 10 13.5in main gun ， 14 6in and six 3-pounder
10000ton Armored cruiser four 7.5in，six 6in and 25 3-pounder
5000ton and 3500ton Protected cruiser both have two 6in，The difference is secondary gun，5000ton has ten 4in and two 12-pounder，3500ton was six 4.7in and four 6-pounder
2000ton scout cruiser ：four 4in and twelve 12-pounder
Future plan
28000ton Battlecruiser 10 14in and 16 6in， 5 underwater 22in torpedo tube
3500ton scout cruiser 10 4.7in 2 underwater 21in torpedo tube
750ton torpedo ship 12 4in（maybe wrong，2 gun is more reasonable）and 4 12-pounder two 22in torpedo tube
740 ton submarine 8 18in torpedo tube
355ton submarine 6 18in torpedo tube
172ton submarine 4 18in torpedo tube

Extremely interesting! Thank you!

 

[Tzoli]

10 guns armed battlecruisers? that's a bit bold and ambitious.

Er, German "Moltke"-class was ten-gun also, and Russian "Izmail"-class was twelve-gun.

So did the Amagis much later

 

[Hood]

Well it is bold and ambitious when you consider that China had no dreadnoughts, she never really recovered after 1894 and never even acquired modern pre-dreadnoughts.
So that implies hefty investment in dockyard infrastructure as well as manpower and training, not to mention the cost of all these battlecruisers, £2.1 million for each 13.5in battlecruiser is a hefty cost.

 

[Dorknought]

P.S. A puzzling thing is lack of interest in submarines - which actually could be a cheap way to deter more powerful Japanese and Europeans navies. Even considering that Europe might be reluctant to build submarines for China, there were still US and USSR...

Germany did take orders from China for 2 Type IIA subs in 1937. The Japanese pressured Germany to drop the deal and Germany took the units over as U-121 and U-122.

 

[Dorknought]

Well it is bold and ambitious when you consider that China had no dreadnoughts, she never really recovered after 1894 and never even acquired modern pre-dreadnoughts.
So that implies hefty investment in dockyard infrastructure as well as manpower and training, not to mention the cost of all these battlecruisers, £2.1 million for each 13.5in battlecruiser is a hefty cost.

In 1909, China had a 7 year plan for 8 BB, 20 CL, 2 DD Flotillas (30DD and DL) and 20 Gunboats. This plan was to cover £21m for 250,000 tons of new warships at £84 per ton at a rate of about £3m per year. This was comparable expenditure to other mid-ranged powers' construction programs. China's debt in 1914 was about £150m and servicing it was about £8.9m per year. Adding to it wont be a great burden and China with a Navy may be able to negotiate a return of tariff controls just as Japan had in 1911.

An initial 3 year program commenced by the Manchu's included 5DL composed of 3 Schichau built DL that had been delivered by 1914 and single DL prototypes from STT (Lung Tuan, later Warasdinier) and an Italian Soldato type (Ching Po, later Ascaro). There was also a trio of training cruisers, 2 built in the UK and one in the US that was later sold to Greece in 1914. In 1910 the Chinese empire signed up for $18.5m (25m taels or £3.81m) of warships from Bethlehem Steel.

The War Ministry was taking about 35% of Government revenue which was about standard for many countries. Funding was heavily weighted towards the army:

• In 1916 Navy Budget was $8.15m USD
• In 1916 Army Budget was $167.32m USD

As part of the pre-war plan and in addition to the ship building, China was to spend £3.5m from 1911 to 1915 on infrastructure (£13.8m) and annual maintenance was to increase from £ 4.9m to £ 6.3m while pre 1908 expenditure was about £5.4m.

The Chinese would buy warships from whoever could put forward the loans. This is evident by the surge in Austrian shipbuilding for China in 1913-14. There was considerable untapped revenue as reform of the Salt Tax had shown pre 1914. The main problem was that it would have to be foreigners collecting the taxes as local Chinese officials were just viewed as corrupt.

The sort of Battleships China would be buying in a no-WW1 scenario would be similar to the Greek Salamis, 8 14" on about 21,000 tons.

 

[Tzoli]

Before 1910 China seek mostly Coastal Battleship for a - If I remember correctly - 4 fleet squadron each with 2-3 large ships 2-4 cruisers and a number of destroyers and submarines. I will check Conway's All the World Fighting Ships later regarding this matter, but in the mean time here is a translated text from a polish magazine regarding the pre-history of the Monfalcone Cruisers and the Chinese Naval affairs:

 

[cattalonX]

P.S. A puzzling thing is lack of interest in submarines - which actually could be a cheap way to deter more powerful Japanese and Europeans navies. Even considering that Europe might be reluctant to build submarines for China, there were still US and USSR...

Germany did take orders from China for 2 Type IIA subs in 1937. The Japanese pressured Germany to drop the deal and Germany took the units over as U-121 and U-122.

after the war，Great Britain plan two sub

 

[Dilandu]

Germany did take orders from China for 2 Type IIA subs in 1937. The Japanese pressured Germany to drop the deal and Germany took the units over as U-121 and U-122.

They really should go to USSR. Our M-class "Malutka" boats were railroad-transportable, which means that they could be transported overland despite possible Japanese blockade.

 

[Tzoli]

Here is the relevant part from Conway's All the World Fighting Ships 1906-1921:

 

[cattalonX]

Around 1896, French designer Charles Doyère provided the Chinese government with 2 coastal defense ironclad projects, one of which has a displacement of 2,900 tons and the other has a displacement of 5,600 tons.
These plans were discovered by Chinese researcher Zhang Liyuan（张黎源） and his colleagues in a French archive.
For details, please visit the link below, but unfortunately, this article is written in Chinese……

杜业尔的野望——福建船政未成的岸防铁甲舰计划（上）

马江之畔的福建船政，曾是中国近代造舰工业的一面旗帜。自1866年创办以来，这里建成了中国第一艘国产蒸汽巡航舰

mp.weixin.qq.com

View attachment 642038
View attachment 642039

more

福建船政未成的岸防铁甲舰计划（下）

二等岸防铁甲舰杜业尔设计的二等岸防铁甲舰共有2个子型号，从图纸上看，子型号A印制的时间为1897年，但最后用

mp.weixin.qq.com

2900 ton 70 meters long, 14.1 meters wide and 5 meters deep
Type A has one 270mm gun and three 140mm guns
Type B has two 200mm guns and four 150mm
5600 ton is 88 meters long, 18 meters wide, and 6.1 meters deep.
two 300mm and six 140mm

 

[Tzoli]

The Ishikawajima Company's Harima Shipyard small destroyer design for China:

Harima Shipyard Destroyer Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 82,29 (pp) x 84,73 (wl) x 86,56 (oa) x 8,02 x 2,36 meters
Displacement: 850tons (standard)
Engines: 30.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armaments:
3x1 12cm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
2x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA Guns
2x3 533mm Torpedo Tubes
36x Depth Charges

 

[awhalen61]

TZoli starting on the Chinese export projects!!! very exciting

 

[Tzoli]

Not the Chinese export projects but on the Jspanese exports to China

 

[cattalonX]

Would you draw those design without images?like Armstrong and Vickers？

 

[Dilandu]

The Ishikawajima Company's Harima Shipyard small destroyer design for China:

Harima Shipyard Destroyer Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

If I recall correctly, this set of proposals included rather cute Nelson-esque heavy cruiser, with three all-forward turrets?

 

[cattalonX]

Light Cruisers:
(snip)
Harima Shipyard Design 3.600tons -1936 (Japan) 3.600tons 4x2 14cm, 4x1 76mm AA, 4x1 12,7mm or 13,2mm AA, 2x3 533mm TT, 30 DC

1936? Seems somewhat improbable given that Japan peeled of Manchuria (=>Manchukuo) starting in 1931, and were fairly non-grata with the UK and US by 1933.

The relationship between Chiang Kai-shek’s regime and the Japanese was not so bad before 1937
Pinghai went to Japan to get armed in 1936

 

[Tzoli]

The Ishikawajima Company's Harima Shipyard small destroyer design for China:

Harima Shipyard Destroyer Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

If I recall correctly, this set of proposals included rather cute Nelson-esque heavy cruiser, with three all-forward turrets?

Yes 3x2 20cm not sure if the 200mm no.1 or the 203mm no.2. Type forward and 2x2 12cm aft

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpWiolN5TEgUEuwQEUhI36E8TqZ1Z9A3/view

 

[Dilandu]

Yes 3x2 20cm not sure if the 200mm no.1 or the 203mm no.2. Type forward and 2x2 12cm aft

Aha, thank you! There were also version with the same main armament forward, but two twin 14-cm turret aft, presumably in case customer wanted more anti-surface firepower.

 

[Tzoli]

I think you meant 14cm guns

 

[Dilandu]

I think you meant 14cm guns

Oops! My bad) Of course, 14-cm (darn you, Imperial system! It's use in XXI century should be qualified as a crime against mankind!)

 

[Arjen]

The relationship between Chiang Kai-shek’s regime and the Japanese was not so bad before 1937
Pinghai went to Japan to get armed in 1936

Do you have a source for that? In September 1931, Japan used the false-flag Mukden Incident as an excuse for invading Manchuria. At that time, Ping Hai was under construction in a Chinese shipyard, under Japanese supervision. Quote from Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946:

Ping Hai was laid down on 9.7.31 in China under Japanese supervision but the Japanese withdrew their personnel in 1933 and construction came to a standstill. The construction was taken over by a German naval mission in 1935 and the vessel was completed on 18.6.36 with German AA armament (the original weapons not having been delivered by the Japanese) and some minor variations in superstructure design

In my opinion, it's safe to say relations between China (Chiang Kai-shek’s regime) and Japan were rapidly deteriorating after the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Not a snowball's chance in hell of China ordering anything in Japan after that.

 

[Grey Havoc]

(darn you, Imperial system! It's use in XXI century should be qualified as a crime against mankind!)

Heresy! Send for the Holy Inquisition at once!

 

[Dilandu]

Do you have a source for that? In September 1931, Japan used the false-flag Mukden Incident as an excuse for invading Manchuria. At that time, Ping Hai was under construction in a Chinese shipyard, under Japanese supervision. Quote from Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946:

There was one point here: the invasion in Manchuria was basically a pet project of Japanese Army. Navy have nothing to do with that, considering... strange political system of early 1930s Japan (with one civilian government under increasing influence of two military juntas). Moreover, the China itself was basically a confederacy of military cliques, more or less unified under Nationalist banner. So many people from both sides viewed the 1931 conflict as "Japanese army versus some Chinese generals", NOT as true China-Japanese war.

 

[Arjen]

It's been a few years since I read Saburo Ienaga's The Pacific War 1931-1945, but I distinctly remember the invasion of Manchuria being a Japan Inc. campaign against China as a whole, with internal Chinese divisions just considered a bit of luck by the combined Japanese militarists.

 

[Tzoli]

As we are non-Chinese ourselves and I do not know how many naval enthusiasts here that could read Chinese we could only get info from the English written documents I've posted earlier.
But there is an important english type and hand-written letter describing alterations to Ning Hai and dates back to 1936 September 3:

So even by late 1936 there were naval oriented discussions were goign between China or the Chinese Navy and Japan or their shipyards.

 

[Arjen]

That should remind me - politics and logic exist in separate worlds.

 

[cattalonX]

The relationship between Chiang Kai-shek’s regime and the Japanese was not so bad before 1937
Pinghai went to Japan to get armed in 1936

Do you have a source for that? In September 1931, Japan used the false-flag Mukden Incident as an excuse for invading Manchuria. At that time, Ping Hai was under construction in a Chinese shipyard, under Japanese supervision. Quote from Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946:

Ping Hai was laid down on 9.7.31 in China under Japanese supervision but the Japanese withdrew their personnel in 1933 and construction came to a standstill. The construction was taken over by a German naval mission in 1935 and the vessel was completed on 18.6.36 with German AA armament (the original weapons not having been delivered by the Japanese) and some minor variations in superstructure design

In my opinion, it's safe to say relations between China (Chiang Kai-shek’s regime) and Japan were rapidly deteriorating after the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. Not a snowball's chance in hell of China ordering anything in Japan after that.

I don't want to talk too much about political
but Pinghai never get German AA armament， It has the same model as Ninghai， because of stability，It remove seaplane facilities and half of heavy AA，and reduced the height of the rangefinder
Pinghai went to Japan to get armed at 1936，Harima Shipyard


Above is Ninghai, there are six 76mm AA,Triangle layout
Below is Pinghai, there are three 76mm AA，All on axis
The yellow circle is the rangefinder，red circle is 76mm AA

 

[Tzoli]

The 1.300ton small training cruiser design from the Ishikawajima Company's Harima Shipyard:

Harima Shipyard 1300ton Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 88,39 (pp) x 93,11 (oa) x 9,75 x 3,05 meters
Displacement: 1.300tons (standard)
Engines: 12.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Speed: 39km/h (21knots), 8.300km at 22km/h (4.500nm at 12knots)
Armaments:
1x1 15cm/50 Type 43 / 43rd Year Type Gun,
1x1 12cm/45 Type 11 / 11st Year Type Gun,
3x1 76mm/40 Type 11 / 11st Year Type Guns,
1x1 76mm/40 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type AA Gun,
4x1 57mm/50 likely 6pdr Vickers Mk II Guns

 

[awhalen61]

The 1.300ton small training cruiser design from the Ishikawajima Company's Harima Shipyard:

Harima Shipyard 1300ton Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 88,39 (pp) x 93,11 (oa) x 9,75 x 3,05 meters
Displacement: 1.30tons (standard)
Engines: 12.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Speed: 39km/h (30knots), 8.300km at 22km/h (4.500nm at 12knots)
Armaments:
1x1 15cm/50 Type 43 / 43rd Year Type Gun,
1x1 12cm/45 Type 11 / 11st Year Type Gun,
3x1 76mm/40 Type 11 / 11st Year Type Guns,
1x1 76mm/40 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type AA Gun,
4x1 57mm/50 likely 6pdr Vickers Mk II Guns

Looking stellar as always, TZoli. looking forward to the rest of the series.

 

[cattalonX]

The 1.300ton small training cruiser design from the Ishikawajima Company's Harima Shipyard:

Harima Shipyard 1300ton Design for China by Tzoli on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

The design had the following characteristics:
Dimensions: 88,39 (pp) x 93,11 (oa) x 9,75 x 3,05 meters
Displacement: 1.30tons (standard)
Engines: 12.000shp Kampon Steam Turbines, 2 shafts
Speed: 39km/h (30knots), 8.300km at 22km/h (4.500nm at 12knots)
Armaments:
1x1 15cm/50 Type 43 / 43rd Year Type Gun,
1x1 12cm/45 Type 11 / 11st Year Type Gun,
3x1 76mm/40 Type 11 / 11st Year Type Guns,
1x1 76mm/40 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type AA Gun,
4x1 57mm/50 likely 6pdr Vickers Mk II Guns

30knots？not21knots？

 

[Tzoli]

It was an error, now fixed

 

[Resister1976]

Hum……I see some interesting thing about this post

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