Horten Jet Aircraft Projects

[maxmwill]

Welp, the kampfjaeger is not on the list, but after looking at the pics of the pages, I too want to purchase a copy when it comes out and is again available,

 

[Justo Miranda]

Perhaps more information can be found here ? Justo ?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22705.0.html

BTW, I'll reorganise this thread an the "various Horten projects" one during the next time.

OK

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is the earliest drawing to Horten IX.

 

[hesham]

Hi,


here is a drawing to Horten X variants,please note the gun in picture two is very
close to the gun of GD F-16.

 

[Jemiba]

... and althoug I know, it's boring and annoying:
When posting pictures, photos or drawings, always mention
the sources, please. That's an old rule, but it can be quite
important and save the forum from problems .... :

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Jemiba,


but we sent many times from this book before;
Aircraft of the Luftwaffe, 1935-1945 - An Illustrated Guide

 

[Wurger]

Dear Hesham, I would be careful about this publication. I remember seeing a Gotha trainer on "steroids"...

 

[hesham]

Dear Hesham, I would be careful about this publication. I remember seeing a Gotha trainer on "steroids"...

My dear Wurger,


you meant, McFarland & Company,Inc.,Publishers,but the book is very clean,and no
fake or a hypothetical aircraft is in it.

 

[Basil]

Hesham,

these drawings may be sketches from the immediate post war period but they do not show real Horten projects. Reimar Horten (one of the two brothers) himself has co-authored the book "Nurflügel" (= flying wing) where all Horten projects are described.

 

[hesham]

Hi Basil,


maybe that's right,but we can also ask the member Justo Miranda,it could help.

 

[maxmwill]

Where can I find online a reasonable 3 view of the Horten kampfjaeger? I was able to copy the 3 view that Sharkit has, but I'd like to find more data on this, as this seems to be a really close copy of the Go229 with some differences.

I've been wondering if this could be duplicated as an RC model, using a set of plans for the 229 as a template, but with one ducted fan, in the present case a 77mm fan, of which I have a pair.

 

[lark]

We must be carefull with the drawings in the book mentioned by Hesham.
It's indeed a spectacular (and expensive) book but the drawings are mostly
incorrect (blown up or 'on steroids' as Jemiba said) compared with other sources as mentioned by Basil and the latest
from Mr.Justo Miranda..

 

[hesham]

OK my dear Lark,


but if someone knows that author to ask him about those drawings,that's better.


Here is the Horten 229 artwork drawing,it was for Model-229B.


A Russian book called Horten 229,Призрак Тюрингии

 

[Basil]

This sketch seems to be ok; a two-seat night fighter variant with radar was actually planned; here it is shown with a centimeter wave set. Just to clear up the not correct nomenclature: Horten Ho IX = Gotha Go 229 (Horten brothers are the designer; Gotha would have built the plane in series).

 

[hesham]

Thank you Basil,


can you show us some of unknown Horten Project drawings?,and thanks.

 

[Basil]

Sorry, Hesham, no scanner at hand. I can really recommend the mentioned book. It is bilinguale, german and english.

 

[lark]

Compared with a 3view in "Nurflügel" by Walter and Reimar Horten
the nose cone of this nightfighter project is incorrect. (to bulbous)

 

[Jemiba]

I'm not really sure, that even the Horten brothers back then already new, what size the radome
actually would have. It's clearly meant for installation of a dish antenna and the size of such an
antenna isn't set by the used wave length, but principally by "the bigger the better". AFAIK the
FuG 224/240 were actually tested with different antenna sizes and the Ho/Go 229B was still quite
far away from its in-service date. So, probably all drawings of it contain a large percentage of
speculation, I'm afraid.

 

[hesham]

My dear lark,


I thin it's the same as in beginning of this topic and also reply # 61.

 

[lark]

As Jemiba already mentioned , to much speculation is produced about the last
Horten (and other) late WW II aircraft designs.

I think this forum must not add to the confusion...

 

[Basil]

Lark & Jemiba,
all original Horten nightfighter drawings I have seen to date would have had a Lichtenstein set with its antlers for the decimeter wave length. Regarding the antenna form - of course a parabolic dish was only intended for centimeter wavelength; insofar the wavelength determines the radome form and size.

 

[dan_inbox]

Shouldn't discussions about commercial scale models rather be in the modeling forum ?

Edit : Those posts were split and moved and can be found here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24982.0.html

 

[hesham]

Until get the source,


also in 1945,Horten and Gotha developed a heavy twin-jet fighter and bomber project,
what was it,or they meant a two projects ?.

 

[crabanero]

Found on Ebay. Claims to be HO-229 parts

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GO229-HO229-Horten-IX-prototype-elevon-1945-flying-wing-german-aircraft-/191629893801?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c9e0820a9

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nurflugel-Horten-IX-prototype-flap-HO229-GO229-1945-flying-wing-/191629892866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c9e081d02

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

.

 

[hesham]

also in 1945,Horten and Gotha developed a heavy twin-jet fighter and bomber project,
what was it,or they meant a two projects ?.

The source;

"X-planes - German Luftwaffe Prototypes 1930-1945" by Manfred Griehl, Casemate 2012

 

[SpicyJuan]

Hello, I have seen conflicting data on the Ho XVIII bomb load, was it really a measly 700 kg, or was it 4000 kg like I've seen elsewhere? Many thanks!

 

[Flitzer]

A few reminders.

 

[Stargazer]

Would the designation "Ho13" (or rather "Ho 13") have been kosher at all?? I doubt the RLM would have reverted to such low numbers at that stage in the war just to keep in line with a company's project number system...

 

[Flitzer]

It was so long ago I did this. I'll check my references.

 

[Nick Sumner]

Beautiful work Flitzer - and good to see you back!

 

[Flitzer]

Would the designation "Ho13" (or rather "Ho 13") have been kosher at all?? I doubt the RLM would have reverted to such low numbers at that stage in the war just to keep in line with a company's project number system...

Hi Skyblazer
just checked. It was titled 13B in 'Jet Planes of the Third Reich - The Secret Projects" by Manfred Griehl. Volume 1, Page 179.


Peter

 

[newsdeskdan]

Would the designation "Ho13" (or rather "Ho 13") have been kosher at all?? I doubt the RLM would have reverted to such low numbers at that stage in the war just to keep in line with a company's project number system...

Hi Skyblazer
just checked. It was titled 13B in 'Jet Planes of the Third Reich - The Secret Projects" by Manfred Griehl. Volume 1, Page 179.


Peter

I was about to say 'but the Hortens always used Roman numerals, so Ho XIIIb' but Justo Miranda has a drawing in The Ultimate Flying Wings of the Luftwaffe dated February 21, 1945, showing 'Horten Projekt 18'. One-eight. So it's conceivable that they wrote 'Horten Projekt 13B' on this one.
I'm also suspicious about the Hortens' late war output. They seem to have spent early 1945 (while Gotha was busy trying to annex the Ho IX) frantically sketching out designs which they managed to then keep hidden from the Allies after the pair of them were captured and interrogated. These designs (for which we have very few original drawings) then seemingly emerged years later. Hmmm.

 

[hs1216]

Would the designation "Ho13" (or rather "Ho 13") have been kosher at all?? I doubt the RLM would have reverted to such low numbers at that stage in the war just to keep in line with a company's project number system...

Hi Skyblazer
just checked. It was titled 13B in 'Jet Planes of the Third Reich - The Secret Projects" by Manfred Griehl. Volume 1, Page 179.


Peter

I was about to say 'but the Hortens always used Roman numerals, so Ho XIIIb' but Justo Miranda has a drawing in The Ultimate Flying Wings of the Luftwaffe dated February 21, 1945, showing 'Horten Projekt 18'. One-eight. So it's conceivable that they wrote 'Horten Projekt 13B' on this one.
I'm also suspicious about the Hortens' late war output. They seem to have spent early 1945 (while Gotha was busy trying to annex the Ho IX) frantically sketching out designs which they managed to then keep hidden from the Allies after the pair of them were captured and interrogated. These designs (for which we have very few original drawings) then seemingly emerged years later. Hmmm.

I have to agree, the "later" versions of the HO-10 look far to modern to me, beyond the usual Luft 46.

 

[Vladimir]

Hi, Guys! Need your help with this Horten brothers projects: Horten X-1 and Horten X-2. All i have is this small picture from here: http://www.unicraft.biz/fut/futgerm/futgerm.htm.

Did any one have info about it?

 

[newsdeskdan]

The drawing labelled as Horten X-1 is from p17 of Ingolf Meyer's Luftwaffe Advanced Aircraft Projects to 1945 Volume 2: Fighters & Ground-Attack Aircraft Lippisch to Zeppelin. There it is labelled 'H X A' and the text reads: "Details are also lacking here. The relatively small delta wing aircraft with semi-prone pilot, turbojet installed far aft on the centre fuselage and fin and rudder superimposed on it, appears to have served a similar function as did the DM-1 for the Lippisch projects, and hence was more of a test aircraft for the planned operational machines."

The drawing labelled as Horten X-2 is from p19 of the same book where it is labelled as 'Horten H X (2)'. The text, which is for the image on p18 as well as that on p19, reads: "A lightweight single-seat fighter within the scope of the Jagernotprogram (Fighter Emergency Programme). For initial trials up to 500km/h, it was planned to power it with a 240hp As 10C and in its final form, with a 1300kp thrust HeS 011 turbojet (1946).
"The 'almost' flying wing features swept wings with compound sweep on the leading edge, a flat wedge-shaped fuselage with nose pressurised cockpit and rear dorsal turbojet, one variant having lateral air intakes behind the cockpit. Armament was 3 x MGs or MKs."

And if you believe any of that you'll believe anything.

 

[Vladimir]

Thanks for info, Newsdeskdan
i have Ingolf Meyer's Luftwaffe Advanced Aircraft Projects Volume 1, but did not have Vol.2. Have you scanned pages with this concepts?
Thanks!

 

[newsdeskdan]

Thanks for info, Newsdeskdan
i have Ingolf Meyer's Luftwaffe Advanced Aircraft Projects Volume 1, but did not have Vol.2. Have you scanned pages with this concepts?
Thanks!

I'm afraid not. And please bear in mind that no-one's ever produced any kind of credible source for those designs. Or any source at all, in fact. The German Air Ministry wasn't aware of them during the war, the Allies weren't aware of them after the war - despite interrogating the Hortens extensively and seizing all of their papers. Exactly where all these 'advanced' Horten designs then came from is debatable.

 

[Stargazer]

The drawing labelled as Horten X-1 is from p17 of Ingolf Meyer's Luftwaffe Advanced Aircraft Projects to 1945 Volume 2: Fighters & Ground-Attack Aircraft Lippisch to Zeppelin. There it is labelled 'H X A'
The drawing labelled as Horten X-2 is from p19 of the same book where it is labelled as 'Horten H X (2)'.

And of course the "X" in these designations indicates the 10th Horten design (Roman numeral), not the letter "X" at all.

 

[newsdeskdan]

The drawing labelled as Horten X-1 is from p17 of Ingolf Meyer's Luftwaffe Advanced Aircraft Projects to 1945 Volume 2: Fighters & Ground-Attack Aircraft Lippisch to Zeppelin. There it is labelled 'H X A'
The drawing labelled as Horten X-2 is from p19 of the same book where it is labelled as 'Horten H X (2)'.

And of course the "X" in these designations indicates the 10th Horten design (Roman numeral), not the letter "X" at all.

That's absolutely right. The numeral 'X' for '10' is what's meant here. Flicking back through Meyer's books now (I bought them long before I'd carried out any research on original German aircraft company documents) it's clear that they embody the very worst excesses of the 'craze' for lumping together everything anyone's ever suggested might be a German secret project, guessing at what their descriptive details might be and then stating it as fact. Sure, it seemed like fun at the time but I now realise that some of what I imagined was cool secret projects lore was actually just... made up.
Then again, in some cases Meyer's 'art' drawings are actually recoloured but otherwise faithful reproductions of original WW2 drawings, which I didn't expect - his P.13b is a recoloured version of an original, for example, as is his rear view of his P.13a. It's unfortunate that there's no way to separate the fact from the fiction.