Hitler orders advanced intercontinental bomber projects into production to carry on his war plan for attacking Manhattan

[edwest4]

take a very close look at Heisenberg's "virus house" reactor.. it was the bomb. Fill the void spaces between the rings of uranium with heavy water to breed enough plutonium etc to sustain a chain.. drain and replace with kerosene to inhibit neutron flow... total weight of the whole thing is under the delivery limit of a dive bomber.. all the rings are attached to the oddly shaped device with breakaway attachments: The impact of the device against a hard object breaks them free and allows the critical mass to smash together.

It wasn't a good design I grant you, but it was a workable one.

Ah no, not even the slightest bit close.

There was no HEU which is essential for fast reactions

Had this been HEU, it wouldn’t achieve anywhere near the critical assembly rate of around 1500m/s for 85% U235. .

Reactor breeding Pu, occurs at parts per million over a period of days typically 20-30 days for optimal PU239 and still less than 0.01 %.

Germany could not have atomic weapon in any reasonable timescale and didn’t have access to materials particularly Nickel, necessary to support the project.

Unsupported speculation.

 

[Dilandu]

I think you are jumping the gun here... Both you and Dilandu are assuming I am saying that the damn thing would work.. which I am not, what I am saying is that Heisenbergs reactor design was also the bomb design: All of your and Dilandu's points are completely valid, but they do NOT invalidate the fact that the reactor design was also the bomb design.

Er, no. What are you basically saying is that by changing absolutely every single part of its design we could - maybe - get a very inefficient, most likely unworkable bomb. It's essentially as claiming that the design of automobile is also the plane design - because by rebuilding the car completely, we may build a bad plane.

 

[bobtdwarf]

I think you are jumping the gun here... Both you and Dilandu are assuming I am saying that the damn thing would work.. which I am not, what I am saying is that Heisenbergs reactor design was also the bomb design: All of your and Dilandu's points are completely valid, but they do NOT invalidate the fact that the reactor design was also the bomb design.

Er, no. What are you basically saying is that by changing absolutely every single part of its design we could - maybe - get a very inefficient, most likely unworkable bomb. It's essentially as claiming that the design of automobile is also the plane design - because by rebuilding the car completely, we may build a bad plane.

no what I am saying is that by replacing the heavy water with something else.. the actual device was an aerodynamic bomb shape, it was within the weight limit of Luftwaffe bombers of the era, and hung from the ceiling of the building by standard Luftwaffe bomb fin attachment points.

The thing was built to purpose, it was not recycled scrap, so saying it was a reusing of an existing bomb body doesn't wash... Why attach the disks with sheer pins inside it unless you want them to drop after a sufficient force is applied in one direction? The direction they are set to snap in is towards the FAT end.

That WAS the design of it.. what the flaming hell does that look like to you.. because if I am building a breeder reactor I am not building it in an aerodynamic tear drop fatter at one end than the other.. with bomb fin attachments at the narrow end!

IF it looks like a duck.. it is probably not a mongoose.

EDIT: But it can be a stupidly designed duck!

 

[Dilandu]

no what I am saying is that by replacing the heavy water with something else.. the actual device was an aerodynamic bomb shape, it was within the weight limit of Luftwaffe bombers of the era, and hung from the ceiling of the building by standard Luftwaffe bomb fin attachment points.

By replacing heavy water with something else you would got nothing. The device would shatter from impact, thin uranium pancakes would not hold shape and would easily deform. At very most, you could got weak fizzle.

The thing was built to purpose,

The thing was build to try to make sustained chain reaction, and nothing more. Any similarity with bomb shape were most likely purely accidental. There are no indication that anyone actually considered it a weapon.

That WAS the design of it.. what the flaming hell does that look like to you.. because if I am building a breeder reactor I am not building it in an aerodynamic tear drop fatter at one end than the other.. with bomb fin attachments at the narrow end!

If you have absolutely no idea how the reactor is supposed to look like, you would build it in any shape you may consider practical.

IF it looks like a duck.. it is probably not a mongoose.

You know, a lot of things may look like a bomb, while not being anything like bomb.

 

[bobtdwarf]

no what I am saying is that by replacing the heavy water with something else.. the actual device was an aerodynamic bomb shape, it was within the weight limit of Luftwaffe bombers of the era, and hung from the ceiling of the building by standard Luftwaffe bomb fin attachment points.

By replacing heavy water with something else you would got nothing. The device would shatter from impact, thin uranium pancakes would not hold shape and would easily deform. At very most, you could got weak fizzle.

The thing was built to purpose,

The thing was build to try to make sustained chain reaction, and nothing more. Any similarity with bomb shape were most likely purely accidental. There are no indication that anyone actually considered it a weapon.

That WAS the design of it.. what the flaming hell does that look like to you.. because if I am building a breeder reactor I am not building it in an aerodynamic tear drop fatter at one end than the other.. with bomb fin attachments at the narrow end!

If you have absolutely no idea how the reactor is supposed to look like, you would build it in any shape you may consider practical.

IF it looks like a duck.. it is probably not a mongoose.

You know, a lot of things may look like a bomb, while not being anything like bomb.

now you are grasping.. you had no idea what it looked like, not many people do,

If you are going to be using heavy water you start with a swimming pool and hang rods or tubes, hell even drop bricks of uranium in it.. that makes sense and is easy as F*** to do.. it is essentially what every other breeder reactor in the world is: A swimming pool.

I have never said it would work and was up front with it being a bad design.. a shitty bomb design is still a bomb design. And Heisenberg was smart enough to not try to rethink a swimming pool

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

If you are going to be using heavy water you start with a swimming pool and hang rods or tubes, hell even drop bricks of uranium in it.. that makes sense and is easy as F*** to do.. it is essentially what every other breeder reactor in the world is: A swimming pool.

And Heisenberg was smart enough to not try to rethink a swimming pool

You really do just make up nonsense, then present it as fact to suit your claims;-

Fast Neutron Reactors - World Nuclear Association

Fast neutron reactors offer the prospect of vastly more efficient use of uranium resources and the ability to burn actinides which are otherwise the long-lived component of high-level nuclear waste. Some 400 reactor-years' experience has been gained in operating them.

world-nuclear.org

https://www.osti.gov/includes/opennet/includes/Understanding%20the%20Atom/Breeder%20Reactors.pdf

One out of twenty one breeder reactor built to date uses light water (Shippingport 3 of 1977) and even this required U233, which is exceptionally difficult to produce.

 

[bobtdwarf]

If you are going to be using heavy water you start with a swimming pool and hang rods or tubes, hell even drop bricks of uranium in it.. that makes sense and is easy as F*** to do.. it is essentially what every other breeder reactor in the world is: A swimming pool.

And Heisenberg was smart enough to not try to rethink a swimming pool

You really do just make up nonsense, then present it as fact to suit your claims;-

Fast Neutron Reactors - World Nuclear Association

Fast neutron reactors offer the prospect of vastly more efficient use of uranium resources and the ability to burn actinides which are otherwise the long-lived component of high-level nuclear waste. Some 400 reactor-years' experience has been gained in operating them.

world-nuclear.org

https://www.osti.gov/includes/opennet/includes/Understanding%20the%20Atom/Breeder%20Reactors.pdf

One out of twenty one breeder reactor built to date uses light water (Shippingport 3 of 1977) and even this required U233, which is exceptionally difficult to produce.

No actually I don't.. none of that applies to a first attempt back in the 40s as it is all built upon its failure to work.. Heisenberg was using heavy water as a moderator in hopes of sustaining a chain reaction also hoping to enrich/breed.. both failed.

None of these involve using uranium hexafluoride... but a solid mass of metallic uranium how strange since you claimed you can't enrich a solid.

Edit: Not going to remove it, but will apologize for the last paragraph as it strays into making it too personal. Will also note that if it had worked as he hoped it does not change that the reactor itself could work as a bomb design.. convert enough of the mass to U-235 and put it in the nose of a V2 and you stand a shot of impacting at a high enough velocity to compile and compress the mass rapidly enough.

Sure there are a lot of other variables that makes the most likely outcome a pop with radiological effects rather than a BOOM..

 

[Zoo Tycoon]

None of these involve using uranium hexafluoride... but a solid mass of metallic uranium how strange since you claimed you can't enrich a solid.

The universally understood term of enrichment is the increase in U235 fraction.

Enriched uranium - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No, they all start with HEX enriched reactor Uranium with 5-90 % U235. A breeding reactor does not further enrich the U235 fraction In fact that fraction decreases due to conversion. Please read the attachment supplied.

 

[Archibald]

Heisenberg swimming pool ?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6KMR5VeIf0

 

[Michel Van]

Looking at last posts
I have the feeling KiwiGuy* is back...

Fact is the Nazi was never near to build a Atomic bomb
Why ?

1. Competition,
THIRTY-SEVEN Groups try to get There Bomb and fight over money, resources and Political power
most infamous next Heisenberg team was Uranverein, Göring team and German Postoffice !, yes you read that right.
And Hell were they fighting under each other until SS united the effort in One program weeks before the coward Austrian killed himself.

2. Material,
Physics and Thermodynamic are brutal laws, you need particular stuff to make it work.
in case of nukes, Heavy Water, enriched Uran, Plutonium
While Nazi scraped all Uranium that they could find in Europe,
The Belgians deliver there entire stock of Uran from Belgium Congo to USA for enrichment and Plutonium cooking,
Enough to build seven Atomic bombs
The Third Reich was never able to produce Heavy Water and that little what had made in Norway (several drums)
was lost do successful SAS sabotage operation, While USA and Canada produce Heavy Water to fill olympic swimming pools.
you need heavy water in nuclear research other wise it will NOT work

2. NAZIS vs Laws of Nature !
Nuklear Physics and Thermodynamic are brutal laws, you need respect them to make it work.
The Little annoying Austrian forbid use of "Jewish Physics" I not joking, you get executed for using it !
Next to that was Heisenberg so wrong in his theoretic assumption how to build the bomb

There is story that after atomic bomb drops on Japan the Americans gave captive Heisenberg team the info
and wire tap the room were they discussed the events
Perplex US physicist read the transcript, Heisenberg was so utterly wrong he never could build working Bomb or Reactor
and that was best the Third Reich had to offer in nuclear Physics...

*= KiwiGuy was internet user who is obsess with Nazi Atomic bomb
He terrorised allot Forums about this
Including this Forum and AlternateHistory.com or ALL WW2 forums
nowadays banded from most Forums

 

[Hood]

Hate to be a party pooper guys but the second forum rule is:

• Posts on alien UFOs, speculative Nazi wunderwaffen/flying saucers/atomic bombs, general conspiracy theories, alien crashes, moon landing denial and the like are specifically discouraged and would be better posted elsewhere./li>

Its a good rule as these discussions on German A-bombs always end up in shouting and hassle and these discussions are 99.95% fruitless and pointless.

 

[TsrJoe]

Not only that, but the usual Nazi approach to managing anything was incredibly chaotic and inefficient.

We have not only Herman Göring who is incompetent in any way
Like his dislike for modern landing gear or the use external fuel tanks
His cronies were not better, like idiot that send Squadron of Unarmed He-111 bomber for Glasgow raid.
oh the RAF had damm good day over Glasgow...

but German WW2 Aircraft Industry was in not better conditions
rivalry for lucrative contracts, Intrigue, personal interventions at Fat incompetents or even worst at Little annoying Austrian it self.
Messerschmitt play that game very good, even for contracts he screw up do construction errors.
Next to that the German industry shot themselves in foot by the Nazi chaotic emulation of Soviet Plan economics.

??? A bit OT. from the main thread, but I don't think the RAF. operated over Glasgow per se to any noticeable capacity, the city being ringed with AA. guns and balloons. Indeed the absence of the RAF. is noted in the archives with the main raids seemingly not intercepted, opportune for the Luftwaffe, not so for those on the receiving raids

 

[Dilandu]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Looking at last posts
I have the feeling KiwiGuy* is back...

Fact is the Nazi was never near to build a Atomic bomb
Why ?

1. Competition,
THIRTY-SEVEN Groups try to get There Bomb and fight over money, resources and Political power
most infamous next Heisenberg team was Uranverein, Göring team and German Postoffice !, yes you read that right.
And Hell were they fighting under each other until SS united the effort in One program weeks before the coward Austrian killed himself.

2. Material,
Physics and Thermodynamic are brutal laws, you need particular stuff to make it work.
in case of nukes, Heavy Water, enriched Uran, Plutonium
While Nazi scraped all Uranium that they could find in Europe,
The Belgians deliver there entire stock of Uran from Belgium Congo to USA for enrichment and Plutonium cooking,
Enough to build seven Atomic bombs
The Third Reich was never able to produce Heavy Water and that little what had made in Norway (several drums)
was lost do successful SAS sabotage operation, While USA and Canada produce Heavy Water to fill olympic swimming pools.
you need heavy water in nuclear research other wise it will NOT work

2. NAZIS vs Laws of Nature !
Nuklear Physics and Thermodynamic are brutal laws, you need respect them to make it work.
The Little annoying Austrian forbid use of "Jewish Physics" I not joking, you get executed for using it !
Next to that was Heisenberg so wrong in his theoretic assumption how to build the bomb

There is story that after atomic bomb drops on Japan the Americans gave captive Heisenberg team the info
and wire tap the room were they discussed the events
Perplex US physicist read the transcript, Heisenberg was so utterly wrong he never could build working Bomb or Reactor
and that was best the Third Reich had to offer in nuclear Physics...

*= KiwiGuy was internet user who is obsess with Nazi Atomic bomb
He terrorised allot Forums about this
Including this Forum and AlternateHistory.com or ALL WW2 forums
nowadays banded from most Forums

Heisenberg's principles kept bomb from Nazis

Nazi leaders were kept in the dark about how far Germany's nuclear physicists had got in their work on an atomic bomb

www.newscientist.com

Some of the tapes have been declassified as well as transcripts from Farm Hall.. here is a tasty snippet:

The crucial period in the Farm Hall documents covers the days just after the bombing of Hiroshima. Walther Gerlach, a physicist from Munich who was officially in charge of German research on uranium, acted like ‘a defeated general’, according to another interned scientist, Max von Laue. Later that night, Heisenberg and Otto Hahn of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Berlin discussed Gerlach’s reaction. Heisenberg told Hahn that ‘Gerlach was the only one of them who had really wanted a German victory’.

The conversation then took a remarkable turn as Heisenberg told Hahn how one might build an atomic bomb. He described how a sphere of uranium-235 with a diameter of 54 centimetres, weighing about a tonne, could sustain a chain reaction of 80 collisions, using ‘very fast neutrons’, generating 1024 neutrons. But only a quarter of a tonne would be necessary, he said, if the uranium were covered with a ‘reflector’. The bombs could be made to explode at the right moment by bringing together two halves which were too small to generate a chain reaction when separated.

Both the reflector and the idea of bringing together two subcritical masses of uranium at the right moment are essential parts of the bomb. According to Powers and historian Stanley Goldberg, this conversation reveals how much Heisenberg knew about the bomb, and how much he hid from German political authorities. Hans Bethe, one of the main theoreticians for the American bomb programme, the Manhattan Project, said after reviewing the Farm Hall documents: ‘Heisenberg knew a lot more than I have always thought’.

Now back to me writing...

Excellent points with excellent science have been brought up by Zoo and Dilandu..and almost exactly zero of it was known in 1942.. damn little of it was known by '44.. I post the link for educational purposes.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

 

[TsrJoe]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

Chlorine trifluoride - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Michel Van]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

The Wehrmacht experiment with that N-stuff for Flamethrowers
because it burns with everything organic it touch
Including the Flamethrower and it's user
they abandon that N-Stoff fast..

??? A bit OT. from the main thread, but I don't think the RAF. operated over Glasgow per se to any noticeable capacity

it was example of level of Madness in Göring Reichsluftfahrtministerium...

 

[Dilandu]

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

Well, it could be a good plot for WW2-theme story - Nazi wanting to attack London/New York with N-stoff filled bombs/missiles. This substance is... bad enough, that even a limited use of it would cause widespread damage. (hm, I gonna put copyright on such idea )

 

[pathology_doc]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

And you thought Me163 pilots being dissolved in their cockpits was bad. (Seriously, someone needs to film that someday, with special effects given their full gory rein. "THE PLANE THAT ATE ITS PILOTS".)

 

[edwest4]

Sadly, I'm seeing more emotions than facts. Nazi is an abbreviation for National Socialist. Heavy water was being produced in Germany at the Linde Eismaschine company. Uranium was being processed at the Auer company in Oranienburg. The loss of heavy water from Norway was considered an acceptable loss and made up.

 

[bobtdwarf]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

Chlorine trifluoride - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

thanks for more nightmare fuel...

 

[chimeric oncogene]

the reactor design was also the bomb design

That is a terrible idea because you need very high concentrations of plutonium or highly enriched uranium for a bomb
This reactor mixes in all sorts of useless junk because it's a reactor, which needs to control the damn reaction with other junk.
Thusly, the reactor is bad at blowing up.

 

[Archibald]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

Chlorine trifluoride - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I knew that one was familiar ! Yes, indeed it is one hell of a bastard stuff (sorry for the swearing) including for rockets.
There is a dated (1971) but still reference book called "Ignition !" by rocket scientist John Clark, who explains in a very witty way how every single rocket propellant combination, even the nastiest ones, were explored.

The all time record is still 542 seconds (in the laboratory. Don't try that at home, nor at Cape Canaveral !) for a combination of hydrogen - lithium - and (drums rolling) - N-stoff you mentions.

Yowza - liquid hydrogen is damn cold, low density, explosive. -270°C

Lithium is, well, lithium: flammable and the like.

And N-stoff is... well, John Clark summarized it in one legendary sentence

"...the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire ?
... for dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."

ROTFL.

Lithium, boranes and fluorine are rocketry three red herrings. Surely enough, they make your chemical rocket specific impulse shine. Unfortunately, all three of them can be aptly described by that wonderful Ian Malcolm quote from the Jurassic Park sequel (1997: The Lost world)

"Yeah, oooh, aaah, that's how it always starts. Then later there's running, and , eeerhm, screaming." LMAO.

But make no mistake, Glushko and other Soviets rocket scientists couldn't help dreaming about large engines fed by such nasty substances.

As if the prospect of an UR-700, RD-270-powered crash weren't nightmarish enough (5000 tons of N2O4 / N2H4 !) Glushko wanted to throw boranes into the fray to get 40 seconds more specific impulse.

Then again, NASA just couldn't resist the lure of fluorine/methane having the same isp than LH2/LOX, except without goddam LH2 storage issues: bad density, horrible temperature...
Except fluorine was even worse, at least for toxicity. Yet the NTRS is packed full with dozen of studies of Fluorine/methane RL-10s and Centaur-like stages.

 

[Dilandu]

And N-stoff is... well, John Clark summarized it in one legendary sentence

"...the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire ?
... for dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."

Yep. That's why as a weapon it could be incredibly destructive... if someone figure out how exactly this hellish stuff could be transported to the target.

 

[Archibald]

And N-stoff is... well, John Clark summarized it in one legendary sentence

"...the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire ?
... for dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."

Yep. That's why as a weapon it could be incredibly destructive... if someone figure out how exactly this hellish stuff could be transported to the target.

Well if they managed to use it as rocket oxidizer, then it would solve both problems of a) V-2 minuscule range, because shitty specific impulse of 215 seconds and b) provided some of that horrible oxidizer remains in the tanks... the rocket IS the weapon.

But first they have to load the horrible thing into the rocket. And throw the rocket out of the pad ASAP. If it makes a pad fallback... GAME OVER.

N-stoff is like Indiana Jones Ark of the covenant: a pretty radical way of consuming evil nazi men, for sure.

Also applies to Donovan drinking in the wrong Grail in Last crusade - the way he ends, he may have as well drank N-stoff.

"He choose... poorly."

"She talks in her sleep !"

 

[Michel Van]

So we enter the realm of Toxic Rocket fuel
And again Germans started that do lack of Chemicals during WW2

Tonka-250 is 50% triethylamine and 50% xylidine, as rocketfuel need nitric acid as a hypergolic oxidizer.
what is
SV-Stoff a mixture 94% nitric acid / 6% dinitrogen tetroxide or 85% nitric acid / 15% sulphuric acid or S-Stoff
Gesundheit !

Or like John Clark like to say: If you working with that stuff, buy good running shoes, you need Them if something goes wrong...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Chlorine trifluoride - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

When discussing chlorine triflouride, Wikipedia ain't the right go-to. This is better:

Sand Won't Save You This Time​

it’s bad enough when your reagent ignites wet sand, but the clouds of hot hydrofluoric acid are your special door prize if you’re foolhardy enough to hang around and watch the fireworks.

Which leads naturally to the authors masterpiece:

Things I Won't Work With: Dioxygen Difluoride​

Anybody knows anything about chemistry... if you hear of a chemical that has oxidized *oxygen,* you'd better start looking for the door.

 

[Ivan Culjak]

Again, I'm not saying that I think the German plan would've been a great success; I'm just telling you what the plan actually was.

And I'm pointing out the historical reality was it was a complete fantasy on the German's part. They wanted to build aircraft they could neither afford to build nor acquire in quantities that would do anything. They planned to use them against the US in a way that ensured they'd almost certainly all be lost in short order.

Of course, part of this is the Germans had next to zero actual intelligence on what was going on in the US, what US defenses were, how they were set up, or what their strength was. They quite literally didn't even know where much of US industry was located, particularly factories set up post 1941.

For them, locations like North American Dallas, Boeing Wichita, or Oak Ridge didn't exist. They knew nothing about these massive operations. Sure, a surprise raid scattering some bombs over NYC and Manhattan would be a local scare and nuisance, but it wouldn't have any effect on the outcome of the war. It would be a meaningless gesture.

It's all true what you said, but this is an example of "after battle wisdom", actually "80 years after" , and just everybody knows what actually happened...

 

[Ivan Culjak]

Again, I'm not saying that I think the German plan would've been a great success; I'm just telling you what the plan actually was.

And I'm pointing out the historical reality was it was a complete fantasy on the German's part. They wanted to build aircraft they could neither afford to build nor acquire in quantities that would do anything. They planned to use them against the US in a way that ensured they'd almost certainly all be lost in short order.

Of course, part of this is the Germans had next to zero actual intelligence on what was going on in the US, what US defenses were, how they were set up, or what their strength was. They quite literally didn't even know where much of US industry was located, particularly factories set up post 1941.

For them, locations like North American Dallas, Boeing Wichita, or Oak Ridge didn't exist. They knew nothing about these massive operations. Sure, a surprise raid scattering some bombs over NYC and Manhattan would be a local scare and nuisance, but it wouldn't have any effect on the outcome of the war. It would be a meaningless gesture.

We all know the historical reality. There's really no need to spell it out. It is absolutely obvious that the German plan was ridiculous. It is, surely, obvious that going to war with the US at all was a complete disaster for the Germans - they basically lost the moment they declared war on the US, it simply became a matter of when they lost, not if they would lose. We know that the Germans couldn't afford the resources to build a fleet of heavy bombers, even a small one. All that should go without saying.
What's not been obvious is what the Germans actually were planning (regardless of its chances of success, i.e. zero). The assumptions underpinning the question we're responding to suggest that people don't realise that the Germans were not trying to 'bring the US to its knees', nor that they had very few aircraft designs that could have even reached the US and returned. Nor that most of the designs mentioned were never intended as 'Amerikabombers'. These are the things that aren't known - and that is the gap in awareness that I am attempting to fill with knowledge gleaned from primary source research.
It's also not obvious what intelligence the Germans had about what was going on in the US. German archivists have estimated that something like 98% of files on intelligence about foreign powers were destroyed.
It's not a topic I've paid too much attention to, exactly what the Germans did and didn't know about US military planning, but I wouldn't be too hasty to say that they "had next to zero actual intelligence on what was going on in the US". Certainly, they seem to have had a remarkable degree of knowledge about the B-29, B-32 and other aircraft. In addition, if you look through the ADRC/T-2 microfilm files (i.e. air technology documents captured from the Germans at the end of the war) you will occasionally find articles on air technology lifted from American magazines with dates ranging from 1940 to 1944. There's a good one on Northrop's flying wings, for example, which gives away far more than you'd think either Northrop or the American government would have been comfortable with.
So while I agree with you about the ludicrously low chances of the Me 264/Ju 290/Ju 390 achieving anything other than being a massive waste of resources, I'm hesitant to agree with you about the state of German intelligence on the US. They knew far less, I think it's fair to say, about what was happening in Britain.

They actually had close to zero up-to-date intelligence on what was going on in the US. They had no spies, and the two attempts to land ones from submarines both ended with all of them rounded up in short order and either imprisoned or executed. In fact, if you read about them--or the ones that went to England--it sounds like a badly written comedy. It's almost unbelievable how inept they were.
The most well-known group of four landed on Long Island where they ran into a Coast Guard sentry on the landing beach. Four more landed in Florida a day later. They were rounded up in less than a month, in part because two of them turned themselves into the FBI...

Their plan was completely amateurish. They had only the vaguest notion of where US defense industries were and no idea on how they might move around the country.
Another group of two was later landed in Maine and they too were quickly caught.

View attachment 671671

It didn't help Germany that there were few Germans who spoke American English well enough that they could pass without question if used as spies. The Soviet Union and Britain were much better at this game, while the US was better at what might be called 'dirty tricks.'

This book is not a conspiracy theory book, it's actually based on primary sources and written by a renowned author

Fighting to Lose: How the German Secret Intelligence Service Helped the Allies Win the Second World War (Secrets of the Second World War): Bryden, John: 9781459719590: Books

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[Ivan Culjak]

Sorry you feel this way. I suppose a few one ton bombs hitting a few skyscrapers does not count.

A few bombs, dropped from high altitude level bomber with rather poor bombsights, and most likely at night. Frankly, I put more faith in the ability of 1918's trans-atlantic Zeppelin raider to blast Wall Street into rubble. Zeppelins at least could hover, and - when not bothered with ground guns or fighters - could bomb with impressive accuracy.

And Germans did not have neither radar bombsight, nor general-purpose guided munition to use.

Yeah, again this is true but this is some 80 years delayed wisdom, try to get back in history, in those days, would you be so cool about it.. Everybody knows what actually happened, nobody fighting it, please

 

[Ivan Culjak]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

And you thought Me163 pilots being dissolved in their cockpits was bad. (Seriously, someone needs to film that someday, with special effects given their full gory rein. "THE PLANE THAT ATE ITS PILOTS".)

Except for the fact it has never happened... If it is for imagination, the movie it could be made, would be like: Apollo crew lost in space, or Forgotten on the Moon...That was, at least, equally probable outcome...

 

[1635yankee]

The thing was built to purpose,

The thing was build to try to make sustained chain reaction, and nothing more. Any similarity with bomb shape were most likely purely accidental. There are no indication that anyone actually considered it a weapon.

That WAS the design of it.. what the flaming hell does that look like to you.. because if I am building a breeder reactor I am not building it in an aerodynamic tear drop fatter at one end than the other.. with bomb fin attachments at the narrow end!

If you have absolutely no idea how the reactor is supposed to look like, you would build it in any shape you may consider practical.

If you have absolutely no idea a reactor is supposed look, the most practical shape would be the easiest to analyze, which would probably be a sphere. The easiest shape to build would probably be a cube (or at least a rectangular parallelepiped) which is, of course, the shape chosen by the first person to build a reactor, Enrico Fermi. This German "reactor" wasn't being built by a bunch of middle-school kids; it was built by people to whom design was an analytical process, not an artistic one.

 

[Rhinocrates]

Well, speaking of Nazi wunderwaffe, they actually have... one. N-stoff, the chlorine trifluoride.

This hellish substance ignite/combust basically anything in came in contact with. Concrete, sand, asbestos, water... It's hypergolic with almost everything you could imagine. Also, its extremely corrosive, quite poisonous, and while burning, release toxic fumes.

As far as I know, the main reason why Nazi did not attempt to actually use it, was because they weren't actually able to figure out how to transport it safely.

That stuffs scares the peewadens out of me

And you thought Me163 pilots being dissolved in their cockpits was bad. (Seriously, someone needs to film that someday, with special effects given their full gory rein. "THE PLANE THAT ATE ITS PILOTS".)

This is the memoir of a pilot who flew them. I remember reading it sometime in the later Devonian. Fascinating, terrible.

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[flitzer flash]

Hitler never had any plans to attack manhattan.. besides germany built medium bombers as they are defensive weapons and contrary to popular lies they didnt plan on the war nor did they start it...everyone else was building bombers with enough range to bomb Germany since the 20s

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Well, the US went in for some insane rocket fuels too, in the WTF were you thinking? category, like

Hydrogen fluoride
Methane fluoride
liquid fluorine

These spontaneously combust when exposed to air, react violently with glass, many metals, and host of other materials.

Reaction motors tried them out as alternatives for fuel in the BOMARC project.

 

[edwest4]

Hitler never had any plans to attack manhattan.. besides germany built medium bombers as they are defensive weapons and contrary to popular lies they didnt plan on the war nor did they start it...everyone else was building bombers with enough range to bomb Germany since the 20s
"tell a lie, repeat it enough and it will become accepted fact" EDWARD BERNAYS the jewish nephew of Freud

I would caution against the 'popular' approach. A few popular books. But no actual research. It's a bit like saying documents that were classified Secret and Top Secret during and right after the war contained no secrets. Nothing that would disturb what I call 'the common stories.'

William Shirer wrote The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I remember seeing it when it came out. The December 19, 1961 issue of Look magazine had the following cover story: "If Hitler Had Won World War II" by William L. Shirer. "The author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich uncovers the Nazi Führer’s plans to enslave the conquered Americas."

The Germans did have plans to attack New York, Manhattan in particular.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Hitler never had any plans to attack manhattan.. besides germany built medium bombers as they are defensive weapons and contrary to popular lies they didnt plan on the war nor did they start it...everyone else was building bombers with enough range to bomb Germany since the 20s
"tell a lie, repeat it enough and it will become accepted fact" EDWARD BERNAYS the jewish nephew of Freud

Yea, sure...

That's why they spent all that money and effort on developing this, among other systems:

 

[edwest4]

Yea, sure...

That's why they spent all that money and effort on developing this, among other systems:

Are you agreeing with me?

 

[Fluff]

Hitler never had any plans to attack manhattan.. besides germany built medium bombers as they are defensive weapons and contrary to popular lies they didnt plan on the war nor did they start it...everyone else was building bombers with enough range to bomb Germany since the 20s
"tell a lie, repeat it enough and it will become accepted fact" EDWARD BERNAYS the jewish nephew of Freud

Germany built mediums because that was good enough to wage war on their neighbours. Which they then did. Country called Poland. Poland had an agreement with UK, and France, and so they declared War. How is that not Germany starting the war by going around invading countries that don't belong to it? UK being further away, needed to build heavy bombers, so they would be of some use. Mediums would only get to France, which was an ally. USA had more time, and money, and built both.

 

[Arjen]

contrary to popular lies they didnt plan on the war nor did they start it..

Well, there was the small matter of Germany invading Poland. I guess you missed that?