Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-calls-on-france-to-join-european-future-fight-438111/

 

[muttbutt]

France and Germany to Develop New European Fighter Jet: Document

By REUTERSJULY 13, 2017, 8:33 A.M. E.D.T.

PARIS — France and Germany have agreed to develop a European fighter jet to replace their existing fleets, part of a raft of measures to tighten defense and security cooperation, according to a document issued after a Franco-German cabinet meeting in Paris on Thursday.

The two countries are to come up with a roadmap for developing the new aircraft by mid 2018, the document said.

Rest at the link
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/07/13/world/europe/13reuters-france-germany-defence.html?smid=tw-share

 

[NUSNA_Moebius]

I have a feeling this all won't end well.

I think the driving direction should be along the lines of the Air Dominance mantra a la the F-22 or PCA. Older types like the Typhoon and Rafale can be bomb trucks with a secondary A2A mission like the Superbug compared to the F-35C.

Give it true stealth, true supercruise, long range, and deep internal magazines of Meteor and IRIS-T AAMs. A2G integration can come later when the A2A aspects are in service and proven.

Might as well make it a readily two seat aircraft for the UCAV C&C mission which also makes it a ready platform for the Growler role.

 

[FighterJock]

I have a feeling this all won't end well.

I think the driving direction should be along the lines of the Air Dominance mantra a la the F-22 or PCA. Older types like the Typhoon and Rafale can be bomb trucks with a secondary A2A mission like the Superbug compared to the F-35C.

Give it true stealth, true supercruise, long range, and deep internal magazines of Meteor and IRIS-T AAMs. Next network it for next generation UCAV fighter command and control, and then A2G integration can come later when the A2A aspects are in service and proven.

Might as well make it a readily two seat aircraft for the UCAV C&C mission which also makes it a ready platform for the Growler role.

Add to that list a top speed of Mach 2.

 

[kaiserd]

France and Germany to Develop New European Fighter Jet: Document

By REUTERSJULY 13, 2017, 8:33 A.M. E.D.T.

PARIS — France and Germany have agreed to develop a European fighter jet to replace their existing fleets, part of a raft of measures to tighten defense and security cooperation, according to a document issued after a Franco-German cabinet meeting in Paris on Thursday.

The two countries are to come up with a roadmap for developing the new aircraft by mid 2018, the document said.

Rest at the link
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/07/13/world/europe/13reuters-france-germany-defence.html?smid=tw-share

Don't understand the reaction of some contributors to this news.
No technical details given so we have no idea what the proposed aircraft looks like; rather strange jumping in with comments on how it "should be this and this... instead..".
If this story is confirmed the impact on joint UK and French projects will be interesting.
In any case this project is a Rafale & Typhoon replacement, not a Tornado replacement so the latter replacement still likely to be an updated Typhoon or a F-35A (with this new project potentially giving the political cover for the F-35 to be possible).

 

[mrmalaya]

Well it is appearing elsewhere with suggestions that it is very much at a government to government level (rather than Dassault and Airbus).

France will use their UCAV to help on the A2G front, but without F35 will still need A2G in the spec.

What does Germany need, it didn't want Typhoon so why will it want a mach 2 supercruiser with big magazines?

It will come down to a balance between workshare and whether Germany actually has a specification.

 

[Deltafan]

Two questions at this point :

-Nothing about Spain : is the plane a part of the Germany-Spain Airbus bi-engine project or not. If not, does Germany have two planes in project (one with France and another with Spain) ?

-What about the French-British FCAS Program ? Can it join the French-German project ?

Time will tell...

 

[Triton]

The article also seems to be unaware of the agreement between Japan’s Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Agency and the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defense to explore options for co-developing an advanced fighter jet and is keen to deliver a snub to BAE Systems and the United Kingdom.

 

[Reaper]

Concerning Spain: When Airbus D&S is involved than I would think that also Spain is involved, because most of Spanish aircraft & defence industry is part of Airbus.

 

[amalahama]

Spain has not formally jumped in, but it will, they are also looking for replacing the Hornets, and there have been rumours in the Spanish press about a collaboration with Germany in the NGWS

Regards!

 

[mrmalaya]

So then, is it more likely that Britain and Japan will look to leverage their jointly developed technology to buy into a future US programme or develop their own? (not sure which thread that should be aimed at).

I am of the opinion that BAE/UK is quite happy having its fingers in various pies rather than being forced to eat a European buffet.

 

[Deltafan]

Maybe another topic must be open :

-the Germany-Spain Airbus project is to replace Tornado (Germany) and F-18 (Spain)

-the Germany-France project is to replace EF (Germany) and Rafale (France)

 

[Hood]

Politically it makes perfect sense, but when they get down to the details the problems will emerge. EFA started the same way, the politicians did the handshaking before the Germans had even begun to really think about that they wanted, the RAF and AdA knew what they wanted (different things). From various files I've looked at regarding several European projects of that 1970s-80s period, Bonn seems to have been problematic about the costs and what the Ministry of Defence and Luftwaffe actually wanted across a wide range of programmes.
Of course you can't compare two different eras but economics is no less a concern for Berlin today and the well-documented German defence problems do not signal smooth waters ahead.

The only two mainland suppliers are Dassault and Airbus, one has a proven track record and the other less so, there is no doubt the Austrian and German Eurofighter fraud cases are not going to make Airbus look any better, let alone factoring in the Atlas problems. Politically it might hard for Berlin to support Airbus on a totally new project if its proved they ripped the government off.

I don't see a direct threat to the BAE/Dassault programme, as that seems more likely to be an advanced UCAV. Paired with a Dassault/Airbus manned fighter that would certainly safeguard the Western European aviation defence sector in a way not even possible during the 1970s-80s fears of US industrial dominance. However, a warmed over F-35 concept or a reskinned Typhoon isn't probably going to be worthwhile. BAE is looking for the global market, they are indeed taking the multi-fingered pie consultancy approach. Probably good for the shareholders, less so if you want to actually build hardware, though it places them in a position to usurp Airbus if they failed to make their side of the partnership down, especially once the Brexit uncertainty is over and the positions of all the nations involved are clearer.

 

[Deltafan]

Is somebody here able to make a 3D drawing from this photo ? :

 

[lastdingo]

I suppose it's pointless to pay attention to this. It's comparable to the Typhoon's origins in the late 70's/earliest 80's.

Typhoon and Rafale will likely soldier on as first rate combat aircraft, and quite soon only combat aircraft, of both AdA and Luftwaffe for decades to come.

 

[hesham]

With all respect,this topic belongs to Aerospace section.

 

[mrmalaya]

moved

 

[Dragon029]

Looks like Germany will likely be shelving plans for a clean sheet Tornado replacement:

http://www.janes.com/article/75511/germany-declared-preference-for-f-35-to-replace-tornado

Germany declares preference for F-35 to replace Tornado

The German Air Force has a shortlist of existing platforms to replace its Panavia Tornados from 2025 to 2030, but the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the service’s “preferred choice", a senior service official said on 8 November.

Speaking under the Chatham House Rule, the official said that the F-35 already fulfils most of the requirements that the Luftwaffe requires to replace its Tornados in the 2025 to 2030 timeframe, and that it offers a number of other benefits besides.

“The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.

“The German Ministry of Defence [MoD] is looking at several aircraft today, including the F-35 – it is commercially available already, has been ordered by many nations and is being introduced into service today, and has most of the capabilities required.”

Germany had previously engaged Airbus Defence and Space (DS) in defining the requirements for a future Tornado replacement under its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme. However, the timelines involved of an anticipated retirement of the Tornado in about 2030 has caused the Luftwaffe to look instead at an already developed platform. As the official explained, “The timeframe suggests we need to start introducing successor in about 2025 to cover the Tornado retirement in 2030 – we need a five-year transition phase. That is only seven years away, and so it is very unlikely that industry could develop and introduce an entirely new aircraft type that fulfils the functionalities that we require. History show that the Eurofighter took 25 years before the first aircraft was introduced.”

 

[Mike Pryce]

They are talking about a Future Combat Air System to replace Typhoon in 2045.

Video from Twitter https://twitter.com/AirbusDefence/status/928235180476784642


Pics attached. Reminds me of a Northrop/Dornier ND102 that wants to be a Su-57

 

[Ogami musashi]

And the accompanying video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B6AjKrKHQ8

 

[Hood]

That's a fancy Airbus advert, it even has an "A330 AWACS" in it and it just about covers an Airbus-made analogue of every modern airpower concept including what looks like an A400M-based Arsenal Plane.

Interestingly the video seems to still have Typhoons in it as fighter escorts and the two-seat FCAS shown is very much performing a Tornado reconnaissance/strike role. This feels more like a Tornado replacement to me, I don't think its aimed at replacing the Typhoon, perhaps just the latter's air-to-ground roles at most. It doesn't feel like the sort of Rafale replacement that France might be keen on either.

The F-35 is the only off-the-shelf product that probably fulfills all what the Germans require to replace the Tornado. Even if Airbus was to create a two-seat stealthy aircraft, its unlikely to be that much more effective or capable than whatever upgraded F-35A might be in service by 2045 (although a twin-engined design might offer more payload and range). Its a brave move to keep the European aerospace industry in the business but they have a lot of ground to make up. By 2045 the F-35 might still be a more cost-effective Typhoon replacement for those nations with dual Typhoon/F-35 fleets and the kind of recon/strike role seen in the video might be best fulfilled entirely by a UCAV.

 

[litzj]

nice vid and share!

it seems like delta ver. of pak fa

unfortunately, there is nothing new for next gen. airwarfare...

it is just collection of ‘recent trend’,

 

[Avimimus]

I see elements of both the PAK-FA (including large moving LERXs) and F-16XL (cranked delta) in that...

It does look like it has a secondary air-defence role given its volume to engine ratio (Perhaps not a contradiction given that the Tornado ADF exists after-all).

 

[flateric]

...

 

[sferrin]

What time period is that Northrop concept from? ???

 

[TomcatViP]

Yes it's very 80ish but the text mention an hypersonic fighter what fits the timeline and Tech level (hyperstealth is new and does not need all the stealth background that a nation like the US has).

 

[Michel Van]

What time period is that Northrop concept from? ???

Around the 1980s

back to that Airbus Video:
It's nice, but it show a fatal flawed Problem for Airbus 6th generation Fighter
Eskalation in cost !
You not only have pay R&D on that fighter, but also for additional support systems
like A330 AWACS, the unmanned reconnaissance & combat drones
and there Satellite communications systems and new generations reconnaissance satellites.

I think not that Germany parliament will pay zillions Euros for this complete systems.
They just want to replace Luftwaffe Eurofighter and Tornados by new Aircraft,
Not complete battle systems like Airbus envision

Another Issue the Germany parliament show provisos towards Airbus
Since in Germany and Austria public prosecutors are investigating into Airbus
concerning: fraud, embezzlement, bribery and tax evasion.

 

[TomcatViP]

They are not killing Airbus, they are changing it.

 

[red admiral]

Unsurprisingly, Airbus would like to be paid many many tens of billions of euros to build a future combat air system. Whereas Luftwaffe's response is to say they prefer F-35. Its difficult to see this fantasy going anywhere.

All these LO aircraft look pretty similar - limited choices when you're trying to please both aerodynamics and signatures disciplines.

 

[Ogami musashi]

What time period is that Northrop concept from? ???

From one of the predecessor of the JSF program, the Joint Attack Aircraft/Joint Attack Fighter. 1993.
The ALF in the title of flateric caption is a later version. the JAA/ALF would be absorbed by the JAST program.

Source: Tony chong, Northrop Flying wings and Radical things.

 

[marauder2048]

Looks like Germany will likely be shelving plans for a clean sheet Tornado replacement:

http://www.janes.com/article/75511/germany-declared-preference-for-f-35-to-replace-tornado

Germany declares preference for F-35 to replace Tornado


“The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.
As the official explained, “The timeframe suggests we need to start introducing successor in about 2025 to cover the Tornado retirement in 2030 – we need a five-year transition phase.
That is only seven years away, and so it is very unlikely that industry could develop and introduce an entirely new aircraft type that fulfils the functionalities that we require.
History show that the Eurofighter took 25 years before the first aircraft was introduced.”

I'm sure it's driven in part by dual-capable considerations; the US Navy, per its idiom, really missed the boat on a dual-capable Super Bug.

I'm also surprised to see the head of the German Air Force using the term "fifth-generation" since we've been told it's merely an LM marketing term.

 

[Triton]

Is this true or BS?

"Germany Says the F-35 is the 'Preferred Choice' to Replace its Tornados"
by Joseph Trevithick

November 8, 2017

Source:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15896/germany-says-the-f-35-is-the-preferred-choice-to-replace-its-tornados

And the Luftwaffe needs a replacement for the Cold War-era Tornados, an Anglo-German-Italian joint development, as soon as possible.

In 2014, Der Spiegal, citing a leaked government report, said only 66 of the aircraft were airworthy at all and that less than 40 were combat ready. A year after that, Deutsche Welle obtained another review that showed the fleet’s readiness has slipped even further, with only 29 available for actual operations.

The state of the jets has been on full display since the Luftwaffe started flying the aircraft on reconnaissance missions against ISIS terrorists in Iraq in January 2016. Germany initially deployed six of the planes to Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base, but a political spat forced it to move the contingent to Jordan in October 2017. By that point, the total number of Tornados on hand had dwindled to just four.

Previous reports have suggested that the Germans were looking to retire the old swing-wing jets no later than 2035, but the official stressed to Jane’s that this was the estimate for when the last aircraft would have to head to the bone yard and that the process would have to start much earlier.

 

[Dragon029]

Reuters apparently didn't get the memo about Chatham House rules; according to them the remarks about the F-35 being the preferred solution are from LtGen Muellner (chief of the Luftwaffe): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-fighter/tornado-replacement-must-be-fifth-generation-german-air-force-chief-idUSKBN1D81WR

 

[marauder2048]

Neither did AIN but they do give more color on the mission set outlined by Muellner

The mission set would include offensive counter-air; air interdiction; close air support; suppression of enemy air defenses; tactical reconnaissance;
electronic combat; and nuclear deterrence, Muellner added. AIN believes that the last mission is a reference to the U.S. B61 nuclear free-fall bomb,
which can be carried by the Tornado under NATO nuclear-release deterrence doctrine. An updated version of the B61 is due to be integrated on the F-35.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-11-08/germany-requests-pricing-and-availability-f-35

 

[LowObservable]

The General may have agreed to be quoted in a sidebar.

As for the F-35 - it's credible as a Tornado replacement, and of course Germany would need US permission and cooperation to buy or use anything else.

 

[marauder2048]

The General may have agreed to be quoted in a sidebar.

As for the F-35 - it's credible as a Tornado replacement, and of course Germany would need US permission and cooperation to buy or use anything else.

Oh right...I had forgotten that it was the US and not Germany's Eurofighter partners who had deleted the dual-capable requirement for the EF-2000.

 

[Michel Van]

TOTAL BS
That Article not mention one single german source

if there someone in Bundeswehr was study the use of F-35
it would have debates in German Parlament and investigating committee about it
The head of Bundeswehr Ursula von der Leyen would already talk about it in TV
and entire german news media like "Der Spiegel" would had it on front-page news

Next to that has Luftwaffe still some issue and opposition against Lockheed since F-104G "Widowmaker"

Is this true or BS?

"Germany Says the F-35 is the 'Preferred Choice' to Replace its Tornados"
by Joseph Trevithick

November 8, 2017

Source:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15896/germany-says-the-f-35-is-the-preferred-choice-to-replace-its-tornados

 

[Dragon029]

TOTAL BS
That Article not mention one single german source

The Reuters article cites LtGen Muellner as the source and multiple news outlets are reporting on the same conference echo the statement.

Edit: Also, the German MOD has been talking about the F-35 as a possibility all year since they sent a request for a classified briefing on the jet. Remember too that this is not a formal / final declaration of the F-35's selection, it's just the chief of the Luftwaffe saying that a clean-sheet looks implausible given the 7 year timeframe and that they prefer the F-35 over other existing aircraft, which makes perfect sense.

 

[Blitzo]

...

Looks like a stubbier J-20 but with LEVCONs in place of canards.
It's fuselage/body seems to be more like the twin engine arrangement of F22, J20, rather than su57 or yf23

The LERX from the wing to the air intake is particularly distinctive.


In any case, the video shows a reasonable concept that should be well within the technological capacity of Airbus and Europe. Question of course is timespan,and funding, and opportunity/cost of alternatives namely F35.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I thought the Typhoon was the Tornado replacement.