Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS

Why would you need a Tornado replacement in the first place. Ok, the Germans arent so sure about Russia anymore, but a Eurofighter with all relevant weapons integrated should do the trick. Also when you would start now developing a new plane and would reach IOC in 2026+ then 2040 for phasing out the EF is also not that far away. Think of a Eurofighter replacement instead! Maybe call it Tornado replacement if it is more opportunistic for getting financial support!
 
If there isn't a new European fighter program in the next 10 - 20 years, I find it hard to believe that the Europeans will have a fighter industry at all.
 
That is the point behind all of this. I personally think its part of a continuing process that has seen Britain and France pushing their industrial bases to be able to produce their own future fighter.

Calling it a Typhoon/Tornado replacement is to suggest a manned platform. At this stage all the effort is going toward unmanned.

New fighter engines, sensors and materials developed for a large UCAV work just as well for a fighter in service for 2040 do they not?
 
mrmalaya said:
That is the point behind all of this. I personally think its part of a continuing process that has seen Britain and France pushing their industrial bases to be able to produce their own future fighter.

Calling it a Typhoon/Tornado replacement is to suggest a manned platform. At this stage all the effort is going toward unmanned.

New fighter engines, sensors and materials developed for a large UCAV work just as well for a fighter in service for 2040 do they not?
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There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K.
 
marauder2048 said:
There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K.
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And the Anglo-French MALE became Reaper and EUROMALE 2020 (now EUROMALE 2025) is also getting kicked down the road by Herons and Reapers.
 
JFC Fuller said:
marauder2048 said:
There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K.
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And the Anglo-French MALE became Reaper and EUROMALE 2020 (now EUROMALE 2025) is also getting kicked down the road by Herons and Reapers.
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Ugh. Thanks; I don't think I'll ever be able to unsee what I just saw by typing EUROMALE into Google Image search.
 
Pah, that is nothing - I once wanted to confirm the spelling of Baba Yaga and did an image search hoping to see her chicken footed house (she's a witch btw.)
I misremembered her name as Baba Naga though... and I did the search at work during a lunch time conversation with a coworker!
 
The Germans are planning for Typhoon in A2A and something else like FCAS to replace Tornado:

http://www.janes.com/article/57352/germany-issues-inaugural-air-capability-strategy-paper

"Specifically, while the FCAS concept will rest on the Typhoon as the air-defence pillar for the foreseeable future, the search for a Tornado replacement platform (either manned or unmanned/optionally manned) is to be implemented, and studied further in 2016 (including talks with potential European partners)."
 
mrmalaya said:
The Germans are planning for Typhoon in A2A and something else like FCAS to replace Tornado
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At some point they'll have to pay for it though... which I don't see happening

Whereas UK/FR FCAS is spending serious money now
 
??? JFC Fuller, do you then consider that the two countries are ready to produce a UCAV but are instead just building a demonstrator to delay spending money?

Or do you think the UCAV is just a way of holding industry together so that it can work on a "real" fighter in decades to come?
 
Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
::)
 
Great news!

I was astounded to hear how few they have that are airworthy. Especially a country the size of Germany. Incredible.
 
NeilChapman said:
Great news!

I was astounded to hear how few they have that are airworthy. Especially a country the size of Germany. Incredible.
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I'm wondering with the changing of times and geo-politics, if Germany might be eying off a more vigorous export sell of this new design, so as to off-set development costs? Because I can't see how Germany could singly burden such a cost?

Regards
Pioneer
 
I was thinking about export generally too. Something like the FCAS UCAV (and its technology) is potentially as unexportable as the F22, so are we moving towards a range of aircraft with some more hush hush than others?

After all the dance between France and Britain has been tentative enough and I can't get my head round a 3rd partner in this instance.
 
I suspect Germany wants to buy into whatever the technologies Taranis and Neuron mature into. Perhaps a third partner would kickstart some work, but it seems unlikely the RAF will have a use for an UCAV before 2040 and so would probably want to kick an operational type into the long grass with another demonstrator. However, I'm guessing the Franco-German side not being in the F-35 club would want it perhaps 10 years sooner. Still, 20 years is an eon in politics and who knows what the next 2-3 defence reviews will come up with? Surely though the British taxpayer will demand something from BAE eventually? Too often they get a couple of patrol boats and a UAV demonstrator to tide them over until the next big project which is always just around the corner...

I suspect too that the tentative approach is probably influenced by the EU referendum, by 2040 Britain may well be outside the EU and all that might imply about political planning across three nation's needs and technology transfer.
 
I place almost no value on the 2040 date.

This SDSR (2015) there was confirmation that the UK will continue to fund development of a UCAV under the FCAS programme.

There is no requirement because they haven't worked out what it can do yet.

The next SDSR (2020) is still 20 years from this nominal Typhoon withdrawal date. With any other programme in Defence you would be crazy to think that something 20 years away will definitely happen one way or the other, but by 2020 the FCAS programme will have produced enough information and data to allow its partners to decide how they might use it.

Whether Germany is part of that remains to be seen, but to say that the 2040 date for the demise of the last Typhoon is an indication of FCAS having no backing seems a bit odd.

And incidentally when will the older Typhoons stop being used? It's not 2040 and those airframes will need replacing with something whether that's F35 or a UCAV.
 
JFC Fuller, please can you do me a favour and supply some hard evidence to support your assertion that the 138 F35 commitment is anything more than the UK saying we will not cancel any of that purchase yet?

The link between not cancelling any of the F35s "over the life of the programme" (a direct quote I believe) and replacement of T1 Typhoons is not something I have seen officially.

On a not unrelated note, 20 years is too long for me to continue bickering with you over what FCAS stands for, or whether it will generate anything meaningful.

I am more than open to creative suggestions on what topic to post FCAS news (this isn't quite it), but there has to be a better way than this.

Everything I have posted here shows that FCAS is producing serious work on a large advanced UCAV for the French and British. You either take the view that the UK is sharing the crown jewels with France (who really have a need for a UCAV) so that they can boost Europe's aviation sector, or you think that the UK is deadly serious when it comes to UCAVs.
 
Just for clarity, these are the words used: "We will maintain our plan to buy 138 F35 Lightning aircraft over the life of the programme."

When will the F35 programme end and what will it represent in its ultimate form? Perhaps the F35 is the Typhoon T2/T3 replacement? I suspect that no one really knows yet and that everything 25 years away is actually a vague aspiration rather than a solid plan.

The fact is, hundreds and hundreds of millions of £s have been spent by the UK on a) getting to Taranis b) building Taranis and c) developing FCAS.

Germany (see I am trying) will have a need for something much sooner than 2040, as will France and I believe as will the UK too. Not even Spudman thinks France will buy the F35. Not really.
 
mrmalaya said:
Not even Spudman thinks France will buy the F35.
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True that.

At least France has an active fighter program with multiple exports on the horizon.

I am really surprised that Germany was not part of JSF program from the start given the direction that EF took after the after the breakup with France.
 
Well you get to 3x100 million with your estimate using rough figures in the public domain (not including the work leading up to Taranis) so lets not quibble on another definition (of multiple hundreds).

And I wonder what money was spent by the UK on what would become Typhoon at a similar stage in the run up to EAP for example?

Anyway I suppose the most reasonable question for this thread is, will FCAS see other parties join it or will there be a parallel project (manned or unmanned) begun with everyone else? And what does SAAB do in all of this?
 
mrmalaya said:
Anyway I suppose the most reasonable question for this thread is, will FCAS see other parties join it or will there be a parallel project (manned or unmanned) begun with everyone else? And what does SAAB do in all of this?
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There's a definite feeling in UK to avoid this given how badly we've been screwed by the other Eurofighter nations. In ten years I think only Dassault and BAES will still have the capability to build anything new.

A question for JFC Fuller; how much additional funding for FCAS from SDSR though? Those new contracts have yet to be placed. I don't think anyone expects £6.7bn+ though, but Gripen development cost a lot less than that.
 
JFC Fuller said:
MoD just doesn't have a requirement, under current planning, until the 2040s. They are also less convinced that the UCAV is such a large part of the solution than they were 5-10 years ago, not least because of the need to provide an air combat capability as well as strike.
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So there is no MOD requirement and are unconvinced about the size of the force it might need, yet have already spent £350 million on it and might spend another £200-400 million by 2020 without even starting full development around 10 or 15 years away from a production type. Your looking at £1 billion on R&D even if the current low-level activity continues until 2030 (assuming it takes 10 years for development to achieve IOC in 2040). All this just to keep BAE in the game. By 2040 the US will have operational UCAVs, including operation from carriers. Doubtless BAE will feed into that US research in certain areas but will 15 more years of tinkering with one-off demonstrators be enough to keep pace?

To the politicians of the 2025 & 2030 Defence Reviews, an off-the-shelf purchase of US UCAVs is going to look a tempting bargain compared with trying to replicate a similar programme from the few demonstrators that may follow Taranis, providing the investment to build/refit a new manufacturing plant for BAE Systems and manage all the inherent risks of delays and cost overruns and technical problems without an international partner, especially if the planned numbers are uneconomically small.
 
Time will tell. I sometimes get tired of arguing in the face of cynicism when it come to this topic.

If you think the UK MOD/Gov/BAE are only capable of wasting time, money and talent then so be it- carry on with the assertions.

I personally post here because I am excited by the technology and it's capability and have been for decades. I believe the UK wants a UCAV that will be useful and as such needs to make sure its not just a remotely piloted jet (witness the AI in Taranis).

As to the UK and US working together, I personally think it's more likely that we will buy into the future air dominance capability to replace the newer Typhoons and fly alongside the F35 fleet. Our 2 defence departments have been talking about it for a couple of years now (although I have seen only one reference in the media).

That leaves some wriggle room for a European manned fighter I guess.

So much for my optimism, I will leave JFC Fuller to downplay everything FCAS related ;)
 
A little more info: http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41322&p=1221457
 
I thought the topic was about Germany and not about UKs future plans!?
 
I wonder if we should have a merged topic for next generation European work?

It is very hard to delineate FCAS Franglais and FCAS Deutsche at this point.

New thread created here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26549.0.html
 
mrmalaya said:
I wonder if we should have a merged topic for next generation European work? ...
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Starting point were the rather vague announcements by the German Ministry of Defence.
It's not at all clear, which other countries should and would be asked for participation, nor
what actually will be developed. To my opinion, it was more or less just a reminder to those
in charge "The Tornado won't last forever !".
So I think, we shouldn't mix it up with other European (or maybe international ?) plans
and projects.
 
JFC Fuller said:
There is no cynicism or downplaying from me, I am just attempting to get you to understand what FCAS actually is. It's a study and low-level R&D exercise and currently not a lot more. It could yet turn into all sorts of things but currently its actually quite limited.
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I am not sure how you think to know the ins & outs of this being as much of it is classified.
 
Related stupid question time: could someone shed some light on dual capable Tornado and B61-12 integration? Last I heard was yes it is being integrated but in System I (ballistic only) mode.
 

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marauder2048 said:
[...]Wonder if Sandia used a Tornado from the German Air Force contingent at Holloman AFB... [...]
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According to member at the German forum 'Flugzeugforum.de', the German Tornado '98+60' from the WDT 61, normally stationed at Manching AFB (ETSI), was used for these tests at Eglin AFB.
The GAF Tornado '98+60' and a USAF KC-10 '79-1946' took off from Manching AFB on April 5th, 2016.
Source: http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/83286-Flugbetrieb-in-Manching-ETSI-2016/page19
 
SpudmanWP said:
Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
::)
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Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode.
 
fightingirish said:
According to member at the German forum 'Flugzeugforum.de', the German Tornado '98+60' from the WDT 61, normally stationed at Manching AFB (ETSI), was used for these tests at Eglin AFB.
The GAF Tornado '98+60' and a USAF KC-10 '79-1946' took off from Manching AFB on April 5th, 2016.
Source: http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/83286-Flugbetrieb-in-Manching-ETSI-2016/page19
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I'm very grateful for the info.

Airplane said:
Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode.
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Is the typical DCA loadout greater than two bombs?
 
True. But the F-35 runs into more trouble if it tries to match the Brimstone or ALARM loads... of course the F-35 could be developed to use external hardpoints - but then how is it superior to the Tornado? Avionics perhaps.

I agree that the F-35 is possible (and certainly the problems that make it unsuitable for Canada aren't problems for Germany).

However, aren't you curious what a 5+ Gen tactical bomber would look like?? A European styled F/B-23 or F/B-22 equivalent? Even if it never gets built - I'd love to see some studies!
 
Replica? :)

It's fairly certain they are going to upgrade Typhoon and look at a UCAV to buy isn't it?
 
Avimimus said:
True. But the F-35 runs into more trouble if it tries to match the Brimstone or ALARM loads... of course the F-35 could be developed to use external hardpoints - but then how is it superior to the Tornado? Avionics perhaps.
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"Could be developed"? The F-35 is flying with weapons on external hard points right now. It was always intended to fly with external loads for most of its missions. But unlike Tornado, it has the option of going all internal and having a credible degree of stealth for Day One strikes when needed.
 

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