Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS

[galgot]

No matter what qualities or defaults the F-35 has, for any European country having an mil aerospace industry , buying F-35 is shooting itself in the foot.

 

[TomcatViP]

Lol.
What the point of having a mil industry if you've been invaded (with an horrendous number of fatalities) or coerced to the point of submission*... Cooperate with the occupant?

Furthermore the size of the 35 program has left plenty of opportunities to revive an otherwise moribond national industry in many places.

*A paper aicraft (even drawn on shiny blueprint) has zero effect in term of deterence.

 

[kaiserd]

I am impressed by the staunchness of GTX's support for F35 and read the impressively long and acrimonious thread about it with interest.
The Germans I suspect want a plane that does not need inflight refueling.
The RAF (as opposed to the RN) need an aircrsft like the much-used and missed Tornado rather than a Harrier replacement.

The Super Hornet is shorter range than the F-35A and F-35C, and about the same as the F-35B. Hence if range was a deciding factor the German authorities wouldn’t be looking at the Super Hornet (which is also likely to be shorter range than the Eurofighter, and definitely shorter range than the Rafale).
The Eurofighter is the RAFs primary (strike) Tornado replacement, as it will also be for the German airforce.

 

[kaiserd]

Interesting discussion of some of the dynamics of any such decision.

 

[uk 75]

Woops. I was looking at the wrong charts.
So as usual its about politics not capabilities anyhow. I shall leave it to you guys as I dont like any of the candidates much.

 

[RavenOne]

Also from my adventures from ILA 2018:

Whidbey Island based VAQ-137 'ROOKS' turned up with their Boeing E/A/-18G Growler in static while another strike fighter squadron turned up with their F/A-18E Super Hornet in static (my photos).

From what I gathered at the show, lot of interest back then in the Growler / Super Hornet, .......also heard a rumor, that the Growler was evaluated either pre or post shpow by the Bundeswehr/Luftwaffe.

 

[RavenOne]

Also from my adventures from ILA 2018:

Whidbey Island based VAQ-137 'ROOKS' turned up with their Boeing E/A/-18G Growler in static while another strike fighter squadron turned up with their F/A-18E Super Hornet in static (my photos).

From what I gathered at the show, lot of interest back then in the Growler / Super Hornet, .......also heard a rumor, that the Growler was evaluated either pre or post shpow by the Bundeswehr/Luftwaffe.

View attachment 631401View attachment 631402

 

[Sundog]

Three things; The Luftwaffe wasn't going to get the F-35 because it has a single engine. The Luftwaffe flies twin engine. I'm not sure why, but I think it probably has to with safety while flying over their densely populated country. So the F-35 is a non starter in that regard. Also, the Luftwaffe has a need for capability today, not ten years from today. So the Growler was a smart choice. Third, the Luftwaffe has enough trouble keeping the Typhoons in the air. Given all of the service requirements the F-35 has, it's increased service requirements weren't going to help.

 

[gTg]

The argument with population density is a moot point!
Belgians and Dutch fly single engine fighters over much denser populated countries since i can remember...

 

[TomcatViP]

Also the F135 (the F-35 engine) is 20 to 30 years younger than the Ej200 (the Eurofighter engine), bringing decades of improvement in term of reliability, performance and safety.

If safety is the main argument here, why not then have a bunch of B-50 or even the good old B-29?
They have 4 reliable engines that purr like big cats and (as the Frenches like to brand their products) are mission proven (being de-facto the single aircraft that can claim dropping the bomb)...

 

[Deleted member 18851]

Also the F135 (the F-35 engine) is 20 to 30 years younger than the Ej200 (the Eurofighter engine), bringing decades of improvement in term of reliability, performance and safety.

If safety is the main argument here, why not then have a bunch of B-50 or even the good old B-29?
They have 4 reliable engines that purr like big cats and (as the Frenches like to brand their products) are mission proven (being de-facto the single aircraft that can claim dropping the bomb)...

What about the litany of other problems the F 35’s are having? The gun sighting, and vibration induced structural issues around the gun are serious issues that lockeed is yet to even find a root cause for. Not to mention the mass of technical and software problems that have come up. The hornet is proven and has nowhere near the continuing teething problems of the F-35

https://www.defensenews.com/hidden ...ave-been-downgraded-but-they-remain-unsolved/

“It has random oscillations, pitch and yaw issues above [its] 20-[degree angle of attack]," a longtime naval aviator told Defense News last year. "[So] if I had to perform the aircraft — if I had to maneuver to defeat a missile, maneuver to fight another aircraft, the plane could have issues moving. And if I turn around aggressively and get away from these guys and use the afterburner, [the horizontal tail and tail boom] start to melt or have issues.”

 

[GTX]

The hornet is proven and has nowhere near the continuing teething problems of the F-35

Given the Super Hornet has been around/in service for 10 -15yrs longer than the F-35, I would hope so...

 

[Deleted member 18851]

The hornet is proven and has nowhere near the continuing teething problems of the F-35

Given the Super Hornet has been around/in service for 10 -15yrs longer than the F-35, I would hope so...

Absolutely, even at its inception it had far fewer issues comparatively. The 35 is a good aircraft, but unproven, with continued problems and really high maintenance hardware and systems. The hornet is the safe solid choice for a near term need.

 

[GTX]

Detailed article here:

Squaring the Circle: The Replacement of the German Luftwaffe’s Tornado - Foreign Policy Research Institute

Over the last few weeks, a debate has intensified in German political and national security circles on the issue of replacing Panavia Tornado jets for the Luftwaffe. With entry into service in 1979, the Tornado as presently operated by the Luftwaffe fulfills three key requirements. First, it is...

www.fpri.org

 

[TomcatViP]

Finally, what comes out is that those who will fly it had the least to say...
When the Luftwaffe was rebuilt post WWII, they made a great deal of effort to avoid this situation.

 

[Deino]

Finally, what comes out is that those who will fly it had the least to say...
When the Luftwaffe was rebuilt post WWII, they made a great deal of effort to avoid this situation.

I'm not sure if this is a typical situation for Germany only or everywhere, but if I look at the current way our politicians - and that even worse by 16 different ways for each federal state - try to bring back the kids to school we, as the teacher and those working at school are always the last to get an info not that we were ever asked if these hastly applied concepts are doable.

During the last few months it was nearly always at Friday 2 p.m. something was sent over the media first, then followed by a press-conference in which was explained what has to happen from next Monday (or at best one week later) on. But given the strict hygiene- and distancing rules and what they all want at once it often seems to me as if one asks me to pull a hair out of my hand's palm.

 

[Trident]

We digress, but I think the federal structure of Germany is actually doing a pretty good job in this particular crisis. Yes, there is confusion about the widely diverging rules, but then the epidemiological situation in the individual states ALSO diverges widely (compare Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to Bavaria, for example). They attempt to coordinate at the federal level where possible and that's great, but given the varying state of affairs locally that there would be differences on some points is perfectly appropriate. At the end of the day, this is an unprecedented and very dynamic crisis, so the situation is continuously in limbo and occasional missteps are inevitable. We could be doing worse, MUCH worse!

Education is a different story, but this was already the case before the crisis. I guess I just wanted to point out that the federal structure has its points - something you would never guess listening to some people (and, if I'm honest, somewhat to my own surprise).

 

[VTOLicious]

Royal Aeronautical Society, by Edward Hunt, 3 July 2020:
AKK: Kicking the (Super) Hornet's nest?

 

[flateric]

Future Combat Air System: Owning the sky with the Next Generation Weapons System

When facing today’s uncertainties, air superiority, which was underpinning western military operations for over 40 years, is no longer a given thing. The playing field is levelled by opponents’ constant investment in integrated air defence systems, hypersonic weapon technologies and low...

www.airbus.com

As the future is unpredictable: FCAS is an incremental journey

In a unpredictable world of growing threats, FCAS will deliver increasing operational effects by leveraging the collective capabilities of connected manned and unmanned platforms, bringing the next level of Air Power to highly denied environments.

www.airbus.com

 

[helmutkohl]

seems like Airbus and Dassault have some very different views of what FCAS would look like

with the Airbus going for an F-22 like design
and Dassault with an F-23 like design

 

[Geo]

seems like Airbus and Dassault have some very different views of what FCAS would look like

with the Airbus going for an F-22 like design
and Dassault with an F-23 like design

Rather it seems like clash between Airbus and Dassault amid the crisis and small contracts in the civilian sector. Airbus starts fighting.

 

[helmutkohl]

seems like Airbus and Dassault have some very different views of what FCAS would look like

with the Airbus going for an F-22 like design
and Dassault with an F-23 like design

Rather it seems like clash between Airbus and Dassault amid the crisis and small contracts in the civilian sector. Airbus starts fighting.

which company will be the one mainly designing it?

 

[TomcatViP]

There is also a cashwise question. With next to nothing done in stealth, the complex iterative nature of Stealth development will call for massive private investments.
I am not sure that Dassault will have the willingness to put that amount of money on the table. Also since French gov divested large amount of money on Lullabies (lately we heard about billions on clean aircraft flying with H2 with next to nothing similar to a competitive process), not much more will be available for such a cash strapped country. National non-aerospace industry facing US tariffs in the name of subsedized Airbus will voice hard against further massive payments.

Invariably, cash power is slipping out of the hands France and Dassault toward Germany. I'am not a fan of Faury (far from it) but if he plays hard he might tip the balance in favor of Airbus.

 

[galgot]

seems like Airbus and Dassault have some very different views of what FCAS would look like

with the Airbus going for an F-22 like design
and Dassault with an F-23 like design

Rather it seems like clash between Airbus and Dassault amid the crisis and small contracts in the civilian sector. Airbus starts fighting.

which company will be the one mainly designing it?

Link to the other (long) thread on the related subject here :
France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet

 

[GTX]

Berlin Security Conference 2021: Germany likely to issue letter of request for Super Hornet, Growler in January

Germany is expected to issue a letter of request (LOR) to the US government in the coming weeks, as it seeks to procure the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G...

www.janes.com

 

[GTX]

Why a Franco-German Fighter Jet Is a Bad Idea

Paris would be rewarded with greater profits and fewer headaches by going it alone.

foreignpolicy.com