German Casemate Tanks

[monochromelody]

And how do you explain "gegengewicht" in this pic?

... that it has nothing to do with the radio controlled testbed ?

The RVT 2 has a 1800 hp engine mounted in the engine compartment, that would make the vehicle really tail-heavy.
To compensate that weight you must add some counterweight to the front.
If other M41 chassis testbeds have similar engine, they would also add some counterweight.
For HVT testbed, the engine compartment just accomodate an APU, which would not be that heavy, so less the counterweight.

 

[monochromelody]

I'd like to remind you guys that these M41 chassis testbeds all belong to the high-mobility tank concept, the DRK project.

 

[monochromelody]

And how do you explain "gegengewicht" in this pic?

... that it has nothing to do with the radio controlled testbed ?

Of course it does have something to do with.
RVTs are high-mobility radio controlled vehicles designed to dodge enemy missile or tank gun fire, that's why they called Raketen Versuchsträger.

In 1972 test were conducted with COBRA, SS.11, Swingfire and Shillelagh missiles, tried their best to hit fast maneuvering RVT-2. The result turns out that hit probablity lower than 30%, some certain missiles 0%.
Gun camera test were also conducted in this time, and Germans were encouraged to develop the high-mobility tank concept, that's DRK the Doppelrohr Kasemattpanzer.

 

[Basil]

Wouldn't those side by side guns be hard to aim?

These guns are controlled via the principle called ERNA, which is short of Entkoppelten Richt und Nachführantriebe, translating as Decoupled Aiming and Tracking Drive.
View attachment 667901
The panoramic sight is fully stablized and the relative movement of target is decoupled into vertical movement and horizontal movement. The mainguns are stablized with correction, tracking the target only in vertical direction.
The gunner press the firing trigger, more like holding the trigger still for a while, and this will intervene the driving control signal, turning the whole vehicle towards his target. As soon as the firing lines coincide with the target, the firing circuit automatically set off the guns.

It's also said that the twin guns are mounted with a convergence point about 1500 m away.

This kind of aiming and firing was already investigated in Germany 1944/1945.
Dr. Haass of Kreiselgeraete Gmbh, Berlin, constructed and built a prototype which showed a very high targeting accuracy during the move, according to this source:

https://www.cdvandt.org/Wunderwaffe-file-1134.pdf

There is some additional information:

INVESTIGATIONS IN GERMANY by TANK ARMAMENT RESEARCH

 

[monochromelody]

via twitter:

 

[GTX]

Look what's being released as a model kit:

 

[Michel Van]

According youtube channel Armoured Archives
were most of those tanks part of FMTB-70 studies by Germans

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z53bG3ANCHw

 

[monochromelody]

New found, guys.
Last November(2021.11) a guy on twitter posted some pics touring around Panzermuseum Munster, and I happened to be able to recognize one vehicle that is the "Unknown GVT"

Now we can confirm that this vehicle is officially named as "FVT-02", and here's more pics.

Panzermuseum Munster / Stahl auf der Heide

Explore this photo album by 270862 on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[hannesjo]

Hello I have the Takom VT 1-2 under construction

 

[hannesjo]

Hello I have the Takom VT 1-2 under construction

Here is my Update

 

[hannesjo]

Hello I have the Takom VT 1-2 under construction

Here is my Update

My vt1-2 is finish

 

[MadRat]

Did they fire in synchronization? I'd imagine shooting one at a time would cause considerable sway.

 

[Rickshaw]

Did they fire in synchronization? I'd imagine shooting one at a time would cause considerable sway.

There was considerable research undertaken when they were designed. It is why they have a gun along each side, over the tracks to prevent or minimise sway instead of only one or two guns along the centreline. This was revealed when they were first shown to the public in an article published in IDR which I read back in the early 1980s.

 

[MadRat]

That makes sense if correct. I'd think aiming from the hip, so to speak, could be a little more difficult than centerline. I'm surprised they weren't side by side and connected as recipricals. The recoil force could be used to force in its sibling in the other, perhaps allowing a short burst of shots in succession.

 

[ILikeTanks]

Hello from Frielendorf Nordhessen in Germany, I came across the forum by chance because I deal very intensively with the prototypes of the Bundeswehr. I myself was able to buy some original prototypes of the Bundeswehr by chance. Here is my collection in one picture.
View attachment 645214

View attachment 645215

View attachment 645216

View attachment 645217




In my collection there are, among others, Leopard 1 prototype of the pre-series, Leopard 2 prototype with 20mm gun and the PT11 Turret, two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system and an unknown tank destroyer that I once showed here!

Greetings from Frielendorf in Germany

It is variant of the Project 07HK. Very interesting design ahead of it’s time – TV sights, autoloader, anti neutron protection. Great potential.
152 mm Shillelagh or 120 mm delta gun, the model above is 152. Designed 1965 - second stage of the 07HL Project with 3 man grew.

What about the Project 1-6? And what does the HL/HK stand for?

 

[ILikeTanks]

Hi smurf hi jazz sorry i am late had to work.
The question you ask me smurf about the time the first picture was taken i think it is around 1978 so it said in the magazine.
As for the information about the leopard 3 it is very interesting the VTS-1 i think is the marderchassis(german personel carrier) with an external 105 mm cannon. As for the kpz90 never heard off it,perhaps its called different
I have some schematics i found in a magazine wehrtechnik (defencetechnik) and the second one i think is something alike the MBT-70 with the driver in the turret.
What do you think off them ? And have you other pics then mine off the leopard 3 or Kpz90

Do you have more images/information on the second one?

 

[SOVIET990]

Hello from Frielendorf Nordhessen in Germany, I came across the forum by chance because I deal very intensively with the prototypes of the Bundeswehr. I myself was able to buy some original prototypes of the Bundeswehr by chance. Here is my collection in one picture.
View attachment 645214

View attachment 645215

View attachment 645216

View attachment 645217




In my collection there are, among others, Leopard 1 prototype of the pre-series, Leopard 2 prototype with 20mm gun and the PT11 Turret, two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system and an unknown tank destroyer that I once showed here!

Greetings from Frielendorf in Germany

Hi Hannesjo，i found the corresponding document for 07/HK (the turretless one) in bundesarchiv online database, however it has not yet been digitalized yet. Any chance you have access to it?

 

[SOVIET990]

What about the Project 1-6? And what does the HL/HK stand for?

As far as I know only Project 07 exists. A pre-MBT70 project initiated in 1963. According to Bundesarchiv there are Rhinestahl Hanomag(07/RH), Henschel Kassel(07/HK) and Porshce(07/P, aka Typ 1784) involved.

 

[Mephito19365]

As far as I know only Project 07 exists. A pre-MBT70 project initiated in 1963. According to Bundesarchiv there are Rhinestahl Hanomag(07/RH), Henschel Kassel(07/HK) and Porshce(07/P, aka Typ 1784) involved.

The game World of Tanks launched the project 07 of Rheinmetall and Henschel Kassel. Of course the game isn't completely faithful to history (which is the main reason it's notorious),but I think their model art has some reference value. From the modeling point of view, the 07 RH uses a three-axis stabilized turret.Now the question is, what is Porsche's project 07 plan ?

 

[ILikeTanks]

Do you have any credible pictures of the vehicle?

 

[ILikeTanks]

The game World of Tanks launched the project 07 of Rheinmetall and Henschel Kassel. Of course the game isn't completely faithful to history (which is the main reason it's notorious),but I think their model art has some reference value. From the modeling point of view, the 07 RH uses a three-axis stabilized turret.Now the question is, what is Porsche's project 07 plan ?

I have to say that the turret on the left picture looks like a Rheinmetall patent turret called the "Kugelturm".

Espacenet – search results

Espacenet: free access to millions of patent documents. Find out if your invention is unique or if other inventors have filed patent applications that are considered to be prior art.

worldwide.espacenet.com

 

[ILikeTanks]

Rheinstahl has a similar patent, as well as a company I don't really know, which had made a prototype spherical mount gun.

 

[ILikeTanks]

Hello from Frielendorf Nordhessen in Germany, I came across the forum by chance because I deal very intensively with the prototypes of the Bundeswehr. I myself was able to buy some original prototypes of the Bundeswehr by chance. Here is my collection in one picture.
View attachment 645214

View attachment 645215

View attachment 645216

View attachment 645217




In my collection there are, among others, Leopard 1 prototype of the pre-series, Leopard 2 prototype with 20mm gun and the PT11 Turret, two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system and an unknown tank destroyer that I once showed here!

Greetings from Frielendorf in Germany

How is the main cannon supposed to work?

 

[Nik]

"How is the main cannon supposed to work ?"
Uh, like the S-Tank via very nimble hydro-pneumatic suspension and differential drive ??

All it's missing is rear-facing driver for optimal 'scoot' after 'shoot'...
-
"...two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system..."

For a moment, I thought half-tracks were back, then I realised a comma was missing: aside from similarly named helos and assault rifles, Wildcats come in two chassis types, 4-wheel and 6-wheel...

 

[ILikeTanks]

"How is the main cannon supposed to work ?"
Uh, like the S-Tank via very nimble hydro-pneumatic suspension and differential drive ??

All it's missing is rear-facing driver for optimal 'scoot' after 'shoot'...
-
"...two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system..."

For a moment, I thought half-tracks were back, then I realised a comma was missing: aside from similarly named helos and assault rifles, Wildcats come in two chassis types, 4-wheel and 6-wheel...

Look at the gun mechanism on the model, it is clearly not a gun purely aimed by hull rotation. As you can see, it's not even fixed in position. It can se observed that this cannon in fact has some degree of movement, evident by the amount of space provided for the purpose. Also, in the center you can see what appears to be an axis of rotation for the gun to elevate. Anyways if the gun is completely aimed by the tank chassis, it would just be fixed into position without any allowance for movement.

 

[ILikeTanks]

Hi smurf hi jazz sorry i am late had to work.
The question you ask me smurf about the time the first picture was taken i think it is around 1978 so it said in the magazine.
As for the information about the leopard 3 it is very interesting the VTS-1 i think is the marderchassis(german personel carrier) with an external 105 mm cannon. As for the kpz90 never heard off it,perhaps its called different
I have some schematics i found in a magazine wehrtechnik (defencetechnik) and the second one i think is something alike the MBT-70 with the driver in the turret.
What do you think off them ? And have you other pics then mine off the leopard 3 or Kpz90

The second design is intriguing, it looks like a shortened Leopard 2 with an angled turret. Speaking of which, there were patents about them in 1965 by Herbert Kunze, Henshel company. A decade later there was also a Japanese patent about the same idea. The layout was supposed to reduce the height of the tank and to move the gun closer to center of mass.









"*The present invention relates to a combat vehicle, particularly of armored construction, having, for example, either tracks or an all-wheeled drive and a heavy weapon, preferably a cannon, mounted thereon. As is known, it is required that such vehicles have a high ground clearance combined with a low over-all height or silhouette. It is also required that the cannon be mounted on the vehicle in as low a position as possible in order to absorb the considerable recoil forces inherent in large caliber flattrajectory weapons, yet without the effect being thereby produced of vehicle movements which are unduly large. In the known construction of such vehicles having a turret in which a weapon is mounted, difficulties arise in meeting the aforementioned requirements because the high-powered engines required in such vehicles, the transmission and steering mechanism necessitate an over-all height of the vehicle body or superstructure which is too great. As a result, the turret in conventional constructions is mounted in such a high position that the over-all height of the vehicle and the height of the muzzle above the ground becomes too great.*" - Herbert Kunze, abstract for the patent US3269269A https://patents.google.com/patent/US3269269A/en

 

[Scott Kenny]

That might be a nice romantic concept but in reality, unless you're on the steppes or in a nice flat desert, its not going to work very well in reality. Those things called obstacles will prevent you manoeuvring and the length of barrel projecting at the corners will make it even worse. Then of course, you have the problems of dispersion and aiming such widely divergent guns accurately while on the move.

S-tank was officially tested against the M-60 and was no slower in combat tests.

Amazing that still some people insist with the double gun concept, it remembers me a soviet KV projekt of the 1930s.

combined reply

OK, not doubting someone came up with a project like this but, why? What is the supposed advantage of the design? I can see the problems easily enough having crewed Chieftain myself and cannot see this working as a practical tool.

Idea was to increase the chances of first round hit., I'm assuming fire one, see the impact, fire two if needed, GTFO.

Laser rangefinders made the idea obsolete.

 

[Rickshaw]

S-tank was officially tested against the M-60 and was no slower in combat tests.

That is a single gun, centrally mounted. Twin guns widely mounted will have far worse problems.

 

[Scott Kenny]

That is a single gun, centrally mounted. Twin guns widely mounted will have far worse problems.

Again, the idea was to have a very rapid follow-up shot, in case your gunner flubbed the range estimate.

Laser rangefinders effectively made that concept void by all but completely eliminating range estimation error.

 

[Rickshaw]

Again, the idea was to have a very rapid follow-up shot, in case your gunner flubbed the range estimate.

Laser rangefinders effectively made that concept void by all but completely eliminating range estimation error.

*SIGH* Such wonderful faith you have in technology. I remember watching a film about trials of a laser ranger on a early model Chieftain, in comparison to a RMG equipped machine. Guess which one hit with it's first shot? Lasers are not 100% accurate, particularly in the early versions. The twin gunned vehicle was to ensure a hit with the second round, if the first failed, even with laser range finders installed.

Your argument still doesn't address the manourvre problems that two widely spaced guns cause a vehicle.

 

[ILikeTanks]

As far as I know only Project 07 exists. A pre-MBT70 project initiated in 1963. According to Bundesarchiv there are Rhinestahl Hanomag(07/RH), Henschel Kassel(07/HK) and Porshce(07/P, aka Typ 1784) involved.

What does the 07/RH tank look like?

 

[SOVIET990]

What does the 07/RH tank look like?

I‘m sorry, the document for the entire 07 series are not available online. All i can find is a patent illustrating its suspension.
I'd presume the turret will be somehow close to Turm III testrig based on Leopard 1 chassis

 

[Andrei_bt]

What does the 07/RH tank look like?

It was Ublacker project and looked like this

 

[ILikeTanks]

It was Ublacker project and looked like this

That image looks fabricated... I meant an actual drawing of the 07/RH. Also, as you are the one who mentioned those vehicles, may I ask you about why is it called project 07 in the first place? Another point to ask is about drawings of the "Delta Gun" for use on these combat vehicles.

 

[Andrei_bt]

it was 07 as it was designed as tank of 1970s, they had rigid mount of a gun, the combat compartant is shown here -

 

[ILikeTanks]

it was 07 as it was designed as tank of 1970s, they had rigid mount of a gun, the combat compartant is shown here -

Thank you a lot, and this reminds me of an image I discovered made by Rheinstahl. "Panzerfahrzeug mit kugelturm"

1) chassis by Wegmann CO Gmbh, which ressembles the one on the 3D model render.
https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregister/pat/PatSchrifteneinsicht?docId=DE19717734A1


Rheinstahl plans for spherical mount.

DE2149954A1 - Panzerfahrzeug mit kugelturm - Google Patents

I think these two may be related as they are made both by Rheinstahl and follows a similar conception.

 

[ILikeTanks]

it was 07 as it was designed as tank of 1970s, they had rigid mount of a gun, the combat compartant is shown here -

Also, I think it's a good time to start a new sub-section, as this tank is not casemate.

 

[ILikeTanks]

It is variant of the Project 07HK. Very interesting design ahead of it’s time – TV sights, autoloader, anti neutron protection. Great potential.
152 mm Shillelagh or 120 mm delta gun, the model above is 152. Designed 1965 - second stage of the 07HL Project with 3 man grew.

That sound extremely advanced. Do you happen to have actual design plans or drawings about the 07HK or the large caliber artillery "Delta"?

 

[Slakrrrrrr]

Some images of Kanonenjagdpanzer prototypes. The last two photos are from the "Overkill" exhibition at the Bundesmuseum in Dresden, shared in a Discord server. It depicts a 105mm Kanonenjagdpanzer based on the Standardpanzer Prototyp B (a possibly legitimate proposal, we know a 120mm version was being developed), but one of the other models in display is an RU 251 labeled as a Standardpanzer Prototyp B, so we can't confirm the validity of the label for this vehicle.

Apparently, the "Overkill" exhibit is only open until June 30th of this year. Someone should go take a bunch of photos there and share with the class!