German Casemate Tanks

[Grey Havoc]

Thread bumped.

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody

Some more pictures
http://preservedtanks.com/Types.aspx?TypeCategoryId=450&Select=1

GVT-05 ?
http://www.garnison-online.de/main.php?g2_itemId=6499
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_3_gvt-a.htm
http://www.panzerpower.de/
http://www.panzerpower.de/topshot.htm

GVT-04
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_3_gvt-b.htm
http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/marco_folin/gvt_04/
http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/ulrich_wrede/gvt_04/

GVT-02 ? and GVT-03 ?
www.hartziel.de/_typen/vt_kasematt.htm

VT-1-1
http://mitglied.multimania.de/superserien/hpbimg/
http://mitglied.multimania.de/superserien/hpbimg/bw-doppelrohrpanzer-02.jpg

VT-1-2
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_3_vt-a.htm
http://www.bwb.org/portal/a/bwb/ueberun/dasbwb/wehrtec/exponat/kettenf/vt12?yw_contentURL=/01DB022000000001/W26HHDWK147INFODE/content.jsp

Doppelrohr Kasemattpanzer 1974 drawing
KPZ-3B (please compare GER- Casement Tank Kpz-3B_001.jpg from the first page)
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=11511187
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=20849166

BTW maybe the KPZ-3 (GER- Casement Tank Kpz-3_001.jpg also from the first page)
is an armored series-production version of the VT-1-2 ?
(VT-1-1 and VT-1-2 were not armored)

Various designs
http://pk510.akazunoma.com/publising.gtdd3.html
http://pk510.akazunoma.com/afvgalleru.html
http://pk510.akazunoma.com/index.html
http://pk510.akazunoma.com/publising.html

Maybe someone can translate this page ?
http://1.2.3.13/bmi/pk510.akazunoma.com/gtdd3.p21.500.jpg
Someone knows more about the double barreled tank from Ingenieurbüro IBP Pietzsch ?
This tank is also on the cover of
Rolf Hilmes Kampfpanzer heute und morgen: Konzepte Systeme Technologien

It seems that many firms submitted designs for the double barreled tank Kampfpanzer 3.

Many greetings

 

[moin1900]

Modified M-41 "Walker Bulldog" tank chassis were also part the KPZ-3 study.

RVT-2 high mobility vehicle. It is a M41 chassis with a 1800hp engine.
http://strangernn.livejournal.com/222667.html

It seems that this modified M41 chassis was not a artillery-tractor but a testbed for high power engines.
http://www.hartziel.de/index.htm?/_typen/vt_schlepper.htm
http://www.hartziel.de/index.htm?/senne/seite3.htm

M41 GVT ? Maybe this is the GVT-01.
www.ig404.de/IG404-Bilder/Moritz-Bilder/panzerfriedhof/P15.JPG
http://www.multi-board.com/board/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=36262
http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&hl=de&geocode=&q=51%C2%B047%272.06%22N,+8%C2%B044%2733.69%22E&sll=51.151786,10.415039&sspn=9.417746,15.249023&ie=UTF8&ll=51.783792,8.74266&spn=0.004533,0.007446&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr

Many greetings

 

[fightingirish]

[...]
This was a new turret designed by Wegmann in 1978 that reduced turret height by 30% that was to be combined with the Euro Pak engine which cut the hull length by a road wheel (1m). These volume reductions enabled a new mark of Leopard 2 to be built with much increased armour thickness but staying under 60 tonnes combat weight. Main gun depression to -10 degrees was to be allowed by a rising flap on the turret roof.
Source: Battle Tanks for the Bundeswehr: Modern German Tank Development, 1956-2000 by Rolf Hilmes, ARMOR — January-February 2001

PDF: Battle Tanks for the Bundeswehr: Modern German Tank Development, 1956-2000 by Rolf Hilmes, ARMOR — January-February 2001

 

[moin1900]

Hi everybody
MAK/KRUPP PATENT 1972 "Turmloses Panzerfahrzeug"
https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregister/pat/PatSchrifteneinsicht?docId=DE000002253621C1&page=1&dpi=300&lang=de&full=true
Many greetings

 

[Grey Havoc]

[...]
This was a new turret designed by Wegmann in 1978 that reduced turret height by 30% that was to be combined with the Euro Pak engine which cut the hull length by a road wheel (1m). These volume reductions enabled a new mark of Leopard 2 to be built with much increased armour thickness but staying under 60 tonnes combat weight. Main gun depression to -10 degrees was to be allowed by a rising flap on the turret roof.
Source: Battle Tanks for the Bundeswehr: Modern German Tank Development, 1956-2000 by Rolf Hilmes, ARMOR — January-February 2001

PDF: Battle Tanks for the Bundeswehr: Modern German Tank Development, 1956-2000 by Rolf Hilmes, ARMOR — January-February 2001

Updated link: http://web.archive.org/web/20130418055557/http://www.thirdwave.de/3w/tech/weapon/bundeswehr.pdf

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here is a nice image of the model of the MaK VT2 from before it was made in the flesh.

 

[moin1900]

Hi

Infos and drawings about the german High Mobility Test Rigs.
LVT,FVT,RVT,KVT (M41 chassis) 1800-2300hp
VT (MBT70 chassis)
GVT (Leopard chassis)

U.S. Army/FRG Army Mobility Symposium Proceedings held in April 1975
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA021702

 

[moin1900]

Another drawing
Doppelrohrkasemattpanzer Krauss-Maffei/Porsche/Wegmann
http://pkwot.blogspot.de/2014/08/080814.html

 

[moin1900]

Here the patent
DE2202309C3
Turmloses Panzerfahrzeug
Krauss-Maffei 1972
https://www.google.com/patents/DE2202309C3
Patent shows two different designs

IBP Pietzsch Tank 3D model and drawing
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2017/04/16/straight-outta-warhammer/

1:35 GVT-04
http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/22-militaer-fahrzeuge/12255-gefechtsversuchstraeger-gvt-04-eigenbau.html

 

[Foo Fighter]

OK, not doubting someone came up with a project like this but, why? What is the supposed advantage of the design? I can see the problems easily enough having crewed Chieftain myself and cannot see this working as a practical tool.

 

[Jemiba]

There's a good explanation for the reasons for this concept in this post rfrom moin1900, unfortuantely in German only
http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/22-militaer-fahrzeuge/12255-gefechtsversuchstraeger-gvt-04-eigenbau.html

Short summary:
Faced with the tremendous numbers of warsaw pact tanks, a higher firepower and a better first-shot-kill probability were highly desirable.
New ways for target aquisition and fire control allowed for shooting in motion for such tank designs, too, and principally eliminated the
drawbacks of casemate tanks, which on the other hand could carry two guns, instead of just one for turreted tanks.
Those casemate tanks (which had nothing to do with the successor to the Leopard 2) were meant as experimental vehicles only and
not as prototypes for a service version

 

[monochromelody]

Talk about this unknown DRK panzer.

Obviously this tank is different from any known DRK panzer, ie. VT series and GVT series.

Twin large caliber gun, and you can see rifles in muzzles.

These guns could be dummy barrel, for the lifting rings welded on the barrels. There seems to have some sort of gun breech or elevating system behind, because the guns could be elevated and well balanced.

Exact weight unknown. Some news said it weights 30 tonnes, which I don't believe. Transporting a 30t panzer won't need a heavy SLT Elefant, which is capable of transporting 50-60t classes AFV .

Some interesting data board shows that this is a GVT-05, which is greatly differed from what it originally looks like. 30 tonnes is direct copied from GVT-05.

The last words of this data board : Absenkbare Bugpanzerung
Using Google translate it seems to be some adjustable hull armor.
Is this vehicle a modified version of GVT 05? Just cut off the original engine room and lengthened the hull to accommodate a more powerful powerpack, like 3200hp or so?

 

[TomS]

Could it be GTV-04 with an additional applique armored shell? (Possibly spaced armor?) The area around the barrels seems to show an extra thickness like a second glacis plate.

 

[Ravinoff]

Okay, one thing I might be able to shed some light on: the GVTs were never fitted with actual guns, hence why in those photos the barrels are just straight tubes. They used gunfire simulators and laser practice weapons - I'm assuming basically tank-sized MILES gear. Rifled barrels would suggest this oddity has the pair of the standard 105mm Royal Ordnance L7s. The six road wheels is what's really throwing me, six road wheels and that general shape is making me think some kind of very weird modified Marder.

Some searching turned up this page that suggests it's one of the GVT series with the commander's dome thing missing, and it's owned by the Militärgeschichtlichen Sammlung "Lippische Rose" in Augustdorf, which seems to be a legitimate museum with contact info listed.

Could it be GTV-04 with an additional applique armored shell? (Possibly spaced armor?) The area around the barrels seems to show an extra thickness like a second glacis plate.

I don't think so. Side profile is totally different from the GVT-04, and the mystery vehicle has an extra road wheel.

 

[LVisingr]

This is really strange, very strange. This mysterious vehicle with six roadwheels definitely did stand at Augustdorf collection and there was very little info about it, even its true name was not known, usually it was called Kampfpanzer 3 or sometimes VT 2 (Versuchsträger 2). Now it seems that later, it was moved to Eggesin museum and described as GVT 05 there, but I am quite sure that it was NOT its true name or origin, since (as noted above), the GVT-series vehicles were fitted with laser simulators only, not real guns, while this very vehicle definitely does have two real 105mm cannons. Also, all GVT-series vehicles did have five roadwheels. The article says the mystery vehicle was moved back to Munster (since it was leased from there), but AFAIK it is not located there, or at least not in public exposition (there is GVT 04 in Munster, as seen above). Where is that damn thing now? And what is it?

 

[hannesjo]

Hello from Frielendorf Nordhessen in Germany, I came across the forum by chance because I deal very intensively with the prototypes of the Bundeswehr. I myself was able to buy some original prototypes of the Bundeswehr by chance. Here is my collection in one picture.











In my collection there are, among others, Leopard 1 prototype of the pre-series, Leopard 2 prototype with 20mm gun and the PT11 Turret, two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system and an unknown tank destroyer that I once showed here!

Greetings from Frielendorf in Germany

 

[hannesjo]

The tracked vehicles are all 1/10 and the wheeled vehicles 1/16, the average weight of all models is 10 to 15 kilos!

 

[dan_inbox]

It must be nice to have all those models (and the space to accommodate them).
Do you have any more information about the tank destroyer which is so similar in concept to the Swedish S-tank Strv-103?

 

[monochromelody]

Some new foundings this year.

FVT testbed, FVT means Federung Versuchsträger, suspension testbed.
This vehicle is based on M41 chassis.

searching from a 1974 symposium record, DRK project prototypes/testbeds have three different generations, 1st gen. prototype based on M41, 2nd gen.prototype based on KPz 70, tactical testbed based on Leo 1.

VT 1-1 firing both cannon in salvo.

 

[Jemiba]

I've moved the posts with the Wildcat model to the dedicated thread here
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/information-on-wildcat-spaag-please.3961/
and those with the Leopard 1 variants to the thread here
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/leopard-1-variants.1343/#post-431767

@ hannesjo : Look out for PM !

 

[Newtonk]

Wow, where do you find these treasures, Hannesjo? They are truly amazing!

 

[hannesjo]

Thanks for the positive feedback, 80 models will follow! other unknown prototype models. His descendants are not interested in the models, so this nice man has contacted me! But it will take a while until I get this .. I'm excited myself because I don't know what to expect!

 

[hannesjo]

Sorry for my bad english i use the google translator! Greetings from Frielendorf North Hesse. Germany here is a link for all Leopard 1 Lovers https://www.youtube.com/user/Schlampi01

 

[Newtonk]

Hannesjo, if you’re looking for a good home for any of these, I’m interested in purchasing one of these unique models!

 

[hannesjo]

Hey thanks for the positive feedback! Yes, I am somehow cursed that I keep stumbling on these models, I feel as if I have to take care of these foundlings and therefore cannot say no. To what extent the statements concern the number of models that are still to come, I am curious myself. But to you like-minded people in advance you are the first to get all possible information and the historical background. I am really happy to have a very large piece of German tank history with me, to show it and to share it with everyone - Greetings from Frielendorf - North Hesse - Germany - Johannes

 

[DiePanzerKanone]

I've recently found some things relating to the DRK/KPz3/whatever it is called
Attached are (low res) images of:
1. what looks like one of the RVT-2 vehicles, details unknown
2. one of the GVT vehicles, intact!, either before or after a REME recovery exercise in the Hohne (apparently this is "1 of 3 turretless tracked AFVs picked up from Sennelager") in the 1990s?
3. the same vehicle, overhead view, not sure where it is but I'm guessing Sennelager
4. the same vehicle, three-quarter view, again I'm guessing that it is at Sennelager

 

[DiePanzerKanone]

And what looks like the FVT, in the late 90's

 

[Andrei_bt]

Hello from Frielendorf Nordhessen in Germany, I came across the forum by chance because I deal very intensively with the prototypes of the Bundeswehr. I myself was able to buy some original prototypes of the Bundeswehr by chance. Here is my collection in one picture.
View attachment 645214

View attachment 645215

View attachment 645216

View attachment 645217




In my collection there are, among others, Leopard 1 prototype of the pre-series, Leopard 2 prototype with 20mm gun and the PT11 Turret, two wheeled armored vehicles of the family of the Wildcat air defense system and an unknown tank destroyer that I once showed here!

Greetings from Frielendorf in Germany

It is variant of the Project 07HK. Very interesting design ahead of it’s time – TV sights, autoloader, anti neutron protection. Great potential.
152 mm Shillelagh or 120 mm delta gun, the model above is 152. Designed 1965 - second stage of the 07HL Project with 3 man grew.

 

[DiePanzerKanone]

The "mystery VT" and GVT 04 were moved from Koblenz to Bad Fallingbostel last month!

 

[monochromelody]

New info about KVT/HVT.
KVT for combined-engine testrig, and HVT for auxiliary-engine testrig.

This vehicle in 1972-73 tested an AIP propulsion system on a M41 modified chassis. It's got liquid air cylinder container, which is capable for 15min underwater operation. The large snorkel on driver's cabin is for crew escape, rather than supply air to the engine.

This vehicle got a MWM D 226-4 60kW diesel engine, driving through ZF 4HP340 transmission, but I assume that this is just a auxiliary power unit, while this 4HP340 transmission is capable for even large power than Leopard 1's 4HP250.

And this is what KVT/HVT is like today.

 

[DiePanzerKanone]

New info about KVT/HVT.
KVT for combined-engine testrig, and HVT for auxiliary-engine testrig.
View attachment 657163
This vehicle in 1972-73 tested an AIP propulsion system on a M41 modified chassis. It's got liquid air cylinder container, which is capable for 15min underwater operation. The large snorkel on driver's cabin is for crew escape, rather than supply air to the engine.
View attachment 657168
This vehicle got a MWM D 226-4 60kW diesel engine, driving through ZF 4HP340 transmission, but I assume that this is just a auxiliary power unit, while this 4HP340 transmission is capable for even large power than Leopard 1's 4HP250.
View attachment 657169
And this is what KVT/HVT is like today.

Nice! Where did you find these?

 

[Apophenia]

That diesel engine arrangement is very odd! As you suggest, a 4.16 litre engine is tiny for a vehicle of this size.

Output for a Deutz MWM D226 4 without turbo can be as low as 45 kW (60 hp). Such engines are often used as pumps. And it would tempting to suggest that it is acting here as some kind of pump for the AIP ... except a drive shaft running to the ZF 4HP is clearly visible

 

[monochromelody]

New info about KVT/HVT.
KVT for combined-engine testrig, and HVT for auxiliary-engine testrig.
View attachment 657163
This vehicle in 1972-73 tested an AIP propulsion system on a M41 modified chassis. It's got liquid air cylinder container, which is capable for 15min underwater operation. The large snorkel on driver's cabin is for crew escape, rather than supply air to the engine.
View attachment 657168
This vehicle got a MWM D 226-4 60kW diesel engine, driving through ZF 4HP340 transmission, but I assume that this is just a auxiliary power unit, while this 4HP340 transmission is capable for even large power than Leopard 1's 4HP250.
View attachment 657169
And this is what KVT/HVT is like today.

Nice! Where did you find these?

Meilensteine der Panzerentwicklung: Panzerkonzepte und Baugruppentechnologie
New book by Rolf Hilmes

 

[Andrei_bt]

Test vehicles -

 

[monochromelody]

some photo collected

VT 1-2 with TALISSI laser exercise system, circa 1974

Breech block of VT 1-2, photo from valka.cz

Computer asisted dynamic analysis model of VT 1-2, found in a essay about CAD technology in AFV design

 

[muttly]

Wouldn't those side by side guns be hard to aim?

 

[monochromelody]

Wouldn't those side by side guns be hard to aim?

These guns are controlled via the principle called ERNA, which is short of Entkoppelten Richt und Nachführantriebe, translating as Decoupled Aiming and Tracking Drive.

The panoramic sight is fully stablized and the relative movement of target is decoupled into vertical movement and horizontal movement. The mainguns are stablized with correction, tracking the target only in vertical direction.
The gunner press the firing trigger, more like holding the trigger still for a while, and this will intervene the driving control signal, turning the whole vehicle towards his target. As soon as the firing lines coincide with the target, the firing circuit automatically set off the guns.

It's also said that the twin guns are mounted with a convergence point about 1500 m away.

 

[DiePanzerKanone]

Yes, that is one of the RVT vehicles. So are those "Artillery tugs".

 

[monochromelody]

Just a clue and a translation of the description of those photos of the remotely controlled M-41:

First photo
"Test vehicle, self-constructed by the armed forces, this former light tank M-41, with the turret for its 76,2 mm
gun removed. This modification is an attempt to control the vehicle by radio (note the rod aerial) to use it for
different tasks, e.g. detecting and clearing mines. Unfortunately, more specific information cannot be given."

The wording of the last sentence, to my opinion, makes clear, that those tests were classified.

Second photo
"The remotely controlled vehicle from the rear. The cladded engine cover and the mounting for the antenna are
clearly visible. The tests were conducted by the WTD 81 in Greding [Wehrtechnische Dienststelle = department for
defence technology] )

No mention of counterweights, no "big" engine compartment (it just seems to have got an additional cover), and principally,
not even the purpose of mineclearing is confirmed, it's just mentioned as a role for remotely controlled vehicles in general.
And of cousre, as dan-inbox said, no relation to casemate tanks!

Well, how would you explain these M41 chassis testbeds with similar vehicle front?


(top and above)known as FVT, the Federung Versuchsträger, testrig for suspension components

(above)known as RVT-2, the Raketen Versuchsträger for high-mobility tank concept

(above)RVT-2 have different configurations to determine best L/C ratio for rapid maneuver, like slarom driving. All these configurations have similar front structure

(above)known as HVT for Hilfsmotor-Versuchsträger, testing auxillary power unit for DRK project, as well as some under water running capability.
Planned to convert into KVT for Kombinierenmotor-Versuchsträger, designed to take diesel-gas turbine combination

Some details clearly show these are multi-layer structure, ie. mild steel plate welded to the front, to adjust the gravity center of whole vehicle.

And how do you explain "gegengewicht" in this pic?

(above)main components of HVT