France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS / SCAF / FSAC)

More seriously, it seems French MoD has already ordered the UCAS recently and the priority is with the FAS (Nuclear forces) since it is increasingly blatant that the combo Rafale + Fat 330 can't do the mission any more longer (but does even the 330 can do NoE flying without playing Little Thumb with its rivets and engines?)....

Le Rafale au standard F5 aura la capacité d'être accompagné par un drone de combat furtif opéré depuis son bord.

Les premières commandes ont été notifiées aux industriels il y a quelques semaines.
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The Rafale with the F5 standard will have the capacity to be accompanied by a stealth combat drone operated from its board.

The first orders were notified to manufacturers a few weeks ago.
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In the background, I hope that someone, aside of me, would be interested by the exclusive sale/handover of the remaining C-135 before this was announced. I have never heard exclusive handover of State Assets months before the reason behind was revealed to the public (and before Mr Macron became president to say the least). MoD is no Wall street but still... Today, that sounds awfully strange.
 
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But CAF isn't due until 2045 so some kind of interim solution is required, might as well have a new UCAV in 2033 than wait another 12 years.
(Even 2033 is slow work when you consider Neuron was 2012 and all the work on equivalent systems around the world since then).
 
Hood said:
But CAF isn't due until 2045 so some kind of interim solution is required, might as well have a new UCAV in 2033 than wait another 12 years.
(Even 2033 is slow work when you consider Neuron was 2012 and all the work on equivalent systems around the world since then).
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And its not like EF Tranche 5 and LTE wont happen which may also contain an UCAV for some countries (maybe only for EW but then again doesn't matter).
 
www.twz.com

Stealthy Uncrewed Combat Air Vehicle To Work Alongside Future French Rafale Fighters

The advanced drone will pull from experience with the nEUROn stealth demonstrator and is seen as essential to executing high-end future missions. France is the latest country to launch a program to field a stealthy UCAV designed to work closely with crewed fighters from the 2030s.
www.twz.com www.twz.com

www.defensenews.com

France kicks off development of wingman drone for Rafale fighter jet

The stealthy wingman drone will be operated directly from the Rafale cockpit, the Armed Forces Ministry said.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
 
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View: https://youtu.be/piyW9Yma4wA


-1H48'40": Spain, Germany and France summit in December 2024, during which the demonstrator (probably model or 3D images) will be shown for the first time.
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View: https://youtu.be/z2N7UjGhNfc


-1H25'45": FCAS: Summit in December 2024; presentation of the demonstrator; Spain, Germany, France; ability to decide on the principles of the program for the future with political questions: export, but also operational questions: what the plane looks like, its weight, its capabilities to correspond well to the needs of French deterrence for the FAS, to be able to land on an aircraft carrier if necessary.
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Surprising, given that it was indicated in November 2023:
breakingdefense.com

FCAS weighing 4 fighter designs, could make final choice by March 2025 - Breaking Defense

"There is a good working atmosphere and the deliverables are being delivered," Major General Jean-Luc Moritz said of the French-German-Spanish future fighter system project.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com

Major General Jean-Luc Moritz, who leads the French segment of the trilateral effort, also known by its French acronym SCAF, told reporters Thursday that he expects to downselect to two designs (among four) by June 2024 and have a final design in hand “by” March of 2025.
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Maro.Kyo said:
www.flightglobal.com

French air force will field operational UCAV from 2033

France will field an operational unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) from 2033, with the future system to draw on Dassault Aviation's experience with leading Europe's Neuron technology demonstration programme last decade.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
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ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain and Germany to develop combat drones together

As part of the newly signed Trinity House Agreement, the UK and Germany are set to collaborate on the development of advanced drones that will work alongside fighter jets.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Oh wait, it seems like this comes as a response to the new Trinity House agreement with the UK published today. I'll make a separate thread for it since it covers a vast amount of new agreements for arms procurement, not just UAS, but now it makes ton of sense.

Now I wonder where Italy and Spain fits in though.
 
Maro.Kyo said:
ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain and Germany to develop combat drones together

As part of the newly signed Trinity House Agreement, the UK and Germany are set to collaborate on the development of advanced drones that will work alongside fighter jets.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Oh wait, it seems like this comes as a response to the new Trinity House agreement with the UK published today. I'll make a separate thread for it since it covers a vast amount of new agreements for arms procurement, not just UAS, but now it makes ton of sense.

Now I wonder where Italy and Spain fits in though.
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Probaly join given that it will be compatible with EF LTE, FCAS and GCAP. Everyone can use it and get a piece of the pie. Just don't repeat the EF fun
 
Everyone can remember what happened to the EF back in the 1980s can't they? History should not repeat itself, the countries involved should think back so it cannot and should not happen again.
 
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Hicks said:
This documentary has already been re-run several times, I'm not even sure if this note on the Dassault website dates from the first broadcast.
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It is a 2024 documentary produced by Golden Light Productions, on behalf of the French channel RMC Découverte.

I hadn't seen it yet. So I didn't know the last part with the NGF-FCAS/SCAF. Thanks for sharing.
 
dark sidius said:
European air force have no direction and no money to drive any new fighter program, soon our Air Force will look like a third world AIr Force.
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I understand the goal of the remote carrier and am all for it but the idea with the VLS is just stupid. It can't help fighters with its puny range and also isnt as good as existing strike weapons like Tomahawk if strike is the goal. An deck launched NSM like missile with land attack focus? Sure. Something you can use in 3 Services? Yes but please use it right. Another question i have is if this will replace the JFS-M design for both the Remote Carrier part and as extended MLRS munition as MBDA's offer?
 
kqcke for you said:
"For range is an important issue for the New Generation Fighter, but the three nations involved in the FCAS project have not yet agreed on a common architecture, probably not least because the partners have different needs."
https://twitter.com/x/status/1862126702610006390
View: https://x.com/hartpunkt/status/1862126702610006390
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A article from CPM going a little bit into more details about FCAS and some problems
Edit: https://defence-network.com/fcas-ngws-zukunftsprojekte-der-luftwaffe/
 
Here is the relevant extract:

Or, l’avenir de l’aviation de combat pourrait faire partie de ces « sujets d’intérêt communs ». Du moins, c’est ce qu’ont suggéré les responsables de la Présidence des industries de défense turques [l’équivalent de la DGA] rencontrés par cette délégation sénatoriale.

Le rapport fait état d’échanges qui « ont permis de prendre la mesure de la diversité et de l’expertise des entreprises turques de l’armement qui permettent au pays de disposer d’un large choix de drones, missiles, roquettes, véhicules blindés ».

Ces responsables, poursuit-il, ont « par ailleurs indiqué que la Turquie avait la volonté de développer un chasseur de 5ème voire de 6ème génération » et qu’elle « était intéressée pour contribuer au SCAF [Système de combat aérien du futur] en rappelant qu’elle avait été partenaire des programmes Cougar et A400M »
--------//—----------

However, the future of combat aviation could be part of these "subjects of common interest". At least, this is what the officials of the Presidency of Turkish Defense Industries [the equivalent of the DGA] met by this senatorial delegation suggested.

The report mentions discussions that "enabled us to take stock of the diversity and expertise of Turkish arms companies that allow the country to have a wide choice of drones, missiles, rockets, and armored vehicles".

These officials, he continues, "also indicated that Turkey wanted to develop a 5th or even 6th generation fighter" and that it "was interested in contributing to the SCAF [Future Combat Air System], recalling that it had been a partner in the Cougar and A400M programs".
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Very interresting article which also comes to FCAS. Some things i noticed:
- there ain't done on the industrial side with some problems between the companys but less on the political side
- there uncertain about what armament (when that is the easy part)
- french are looking for an empty weight of 16t (but couldnt they accept more with pang?)
https://www.hartpunkt.de/bundeswehr...lugzeuge-vor-einfuehrung-von-fcas-beschaffen/

While most stuff is nothing new those 16t empty weight does sound limiting. Do they plan / assume that they may have to use it on charles de gaulle?
 
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What?!

In order to benefit from the experience gained in the United States, Germany would also consider cooperating with one of the four players. According to well-informed sources, Airbus has already considered cooperating with Kratos. Airbus declined to comment on this.
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kqcke for you said:
While most stuff is nothing new those 16t empty weight does sound limiting. Do they plan / assume that they may have to use it on charles de gaulle?
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That still leaves plenty of room to build something bigger than an F-35.

F-35A is 13t, was supposed to be under 12t, and that’s with some of the weight penalties of needing a STOVL variant.

So 16t sounds like a reasonable constraint, especially as weight growth is almost inevitable so the final weight would likely be over 17t.

The German Air Force also doesn’t have a good record when it comes to making realistic requirements and capability trade offs, so it’s up to the French to make sure this doesn’t turn into a bloated and expensive white elephant.
 
H_K said:
That still leaves plenty of room to build something bigger than an F-35.

F-35A is 13t, was supposed to be under 12t, and that’s with some of the weight penalties of needing a STOVL variant.

So 16t sounds like a reasonable constraint, especially as weight growth is almost inevitable so the final weight would likely be over 17t.

The German Air Force also doesn’t have a good record when it comes to making realistic requirements and capability trade offs, so it’s up to the French to make sure this doesn’t turn into a bloated and expensive white elephant.
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Well but then again EMALS has an max MTOW of what? ~45t? Now across rafale M, F-35C and S. Hornet the empty weight is allways around half the weight of MTOW so thats 32-35t for the fighter. All fighter until now were build to use all available weight for the fighter so why now going for a mutch smaller goal? Because i doubt that the Jet will have have ~29t of armament and fuel on it.
 
kqcke for you said:
Well but then again EMALS has an max MTOW of what? ~45t?
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The catapult limit depends on launch speed.

E.g. 45t at 130 knots translates to 35t at 147kts (simple energy conversion formula E=MC2 E=1/2 MV2). Add wind over deck and compare to required end speed for the aircraft to fly (which could easily be 160-165kts including some safety margin). There’s also aircraft structural limitations to consider (tow force on the front landing gear).

Basically it’s the combo of required launch speed and weight that drives naval aircraft sizing, and NGF may well be limited by EMALS and its front landing gear loads to a lot less than 45t (around 35t seems reasonable).

Same goes for the USN’s own 6G fighter. Also looking back at the USN’s largest fighters the take off limits were:

A-5 Vigilante: 36t with 16 knots Wind Over Deck
F-111B: 35t with 12 knots WoD (but with an older C7 catapult)
F-14 Tomcat: 32.5t with 18 knots WoD
 
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First 16t is Metric tons (35t Imperial).
Second, the limitation effectively is not with arresting and launching gears but more probably with the engines, something that have been a constant in French aircraft design.
The MoD certainly knows already what kind of performance in thrust it can expect, hence can set limit to ensure compliance in term of airframe performances.
Limits set to the Naval variant make senses, as it is there that the MGW will be the most critical
 
kqcke for you said:
Well but then again EMALS has an max MTOW of what? ~45t? Now across rafale M, F-35C and S. Hornet the empty weight is allways around half the weight of MTOW so thats 32-35t for the fighter. All fighter until now were build to use all available weight for the fighter so why now going for a mutch smaller goal? Because i doubt that the Jet will have have ~29t of armament and fuel on it.
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That being said the German DLR-FFD is also designed for MTOIW of 35t with 8t of payload... If one Sees it as example for german requierments or goals then it would be enough (atleast for those requierments back then) but why should the 16t then be a problem?
 
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H_K said:
The catapult limit depends on launch speed.

E.g. 45t at 130 knots translates to 35t at 147kts (simple energy conversion formula E=MC2). Add wind over deck and compare to required end speed for the aircraft to fly (which could easily be 160-165kts including some safety margin). There’s also aircraft structural limitations to consider (tow force on the front landing gear).

Basically it’s the combo of required launch speed and weight that drives naval aircraft sizing, and NGF may well be limited by EMALS and its front landing gear loads to a lot less than 45t (around 35t seems reasonable).

Same goes for the USN’s own 6G fighter. Also looking back at the USN’s largest fighters the take off limits were:
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Im pretty sure EMALS was designed around whats possible for the next fen fighter which means its not impossible to get those but i get what you say
H_K said:
A-5 Vigilante: 36t with 16 knots Wind Over Deck
F-111B: 35t with 12 knots WoD (but with an older C7 catapult)
F-14 Tomcat: 32.5t with 18 knots WoD
Click to expand...
 
TomcatViP said:
Second, the limitation effectively is not with arresting and launching gears but more probably with the engines, something that have been a constant in French aircraft design.
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No. Engine thrust is only a fairly small footnote in the energy equation for a catapult launch, see the A-5 Vigilante which could launch at 36t with only a pair of J79s.

The critical factors are the catapult’s max throw weight (X tons at Y speed), the nose wheel’s structural limits (max tow force), and the aircraft’s minimum end speed (which is a function primarily of aircraft lift and weight).

EMALS is rated at 45t @ 130 knots (which incidentally is the same as a C13 steam cat’s 80,000lb @ 140 knots, so it doesn’t really appear to have more oomph). With 25 knots wind over deck the catapult end speed will be 155 knots. If the aircraft can’t fly at that weight/speed it won’t matter how much thrust it has. For every 5 knots extra end speed needed, the catapult’s launch limit gets cut by ~3 tonnes, so if 165-170 knots end speed is needed (or if you don’t want to plan on 25 knots wind over deck), you very quickly arrive at a max launch weight of 35-40 tons.

All this irrespective of engine thrust (which may move the numbers by 5-6 knots, but much less relevant than the above factors).
 
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