France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS / SCAF / FSAC)

[Hood]

This is why I think they should form a separate holding company like the Jaguar, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest - something that Dassault has no experience of I know, having resisted it strongly since the 1960s.
It would at least offer some insulation and take people out of the local corporate groupthink for a while.

 

[DWG]

That sounds like all sorts of "fun".

For values of "fun" equal to "root canal without anesthetic"

Hopefully the code was heavily, heavily documented with notes about "this change is due to change request XYZ"!

Not quite at the line by line level, but every file had a header that logged every change back to the change request. There'd apparently been one fairly disastrous review before I came aboard, and I was put in place to ensure everything was recorded and properly documented in both the change management system and the files. Which meant change requests regularly ran 1-200 pages by the time you'd recorded all the files changed from start to finish, and then you needed to verify each of those files said the same thing. I managed to automate some of it, but there's a limit to how much you can automate when people are recording stuff in free text.

 

[Suricato]

This is why I think they should form a separate holding company like the Jaguar, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest - something that Dassault has no experience of I know, having resisted it strongly since the 1960s.
It would at least offer some insulation and take people out of the local corporate groupthink for a while.

Insulation from what?
And, in some cultures where the daily networking is important, with this you could terminate the "career" of the insulatet team members so that some of them have to work in a grocery store finally. The daily networking and looking for career opportunities goes on in the old local company when the insulatet team members are away to work for the holding company. When the team members are back in the old local company they have to establish a new network, maybe hey have a new manager, have to learn all changes in company, rules and software and probably have to start like a new employee. A manager who cares about the quarterly profit, quarterly bonus and so not on the experience of the employee may prefere a young employee from university.
Further, where is the headquarter of the holding?

 

[DWG]

And, in some cultures where the daily networking is important, with this you could terminate the "career" of the insulatet team members so that some of them have to work in a grocery store finally. The daily networking and looking for career opportunities goes on in the old local company when the insulatet team members are away to work for the holding company. When the team members are back in the old local company they have to establish a new network, maybe hey have a new manager, have to learn all changes in company, rules and software and probably have to start like a new employee.

The seconded team members return with a whole new set of international contacts and experience working on multi-national contracts, and potentially fluency in a foreign language. That's far from valueless. Having worked on several projects with long term secondments (US <-> UK, UK<->De, Es->UK, It->UK*) none of the people involved seemed concerned. Some switched to the new company, others went back, even some of the non-seconded staff arranged new positions based on the contacts they'd made.

* Also Es->De and It ->De, but I don't recall ever talking to any of those.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Not quite at the line by line level, but every file had a header that logged every change back to the change request. There'd apparently been one fairly disastrous review before I came aboard, and I was put in place to ensure everything was recorded and properly documented in both the change management system and the files. Which meant change requests regularly ran 1-200 pages by the time you'd recorded all the files changed from start to finish, and then you needed to verify each of those files said the same thing. I managed to automate some of it, but there's a limit to how much you can automate when people are recording stuff in free text.

I repeat, that sounds like about as much fun as a root canal without anesthesia.

 

[MihoshiK]

I repeat, that sounds like about as much fun as a root canal without anesthesia.

So, mildy annoying, if mine was anything to go by?

Of course the nerves in my tooth were completely dead by the time I got my root canal done...

 

[Scott Kenny]

So, mildy annoying, if mine was anything to go by?

Of course the nerves in my tooth were completely dead by the time I got my root canal done...

No, I mean with live nerves.

So it's sheer agony, but not at the level of kidney stones.

 

[Deltafan]

A video on Safran and the NGF/FCAS engine (in French) :

View: https://youtu.be/sx9XbqZPFMA

 

[Deltafan]

A video on EUMET and the NGF/FCAS engine:

https://www.eumet-engine.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/video_eumet_engine_1.mp4

 

[FighterJock]

Strange looking wing Deltafan, certainly a lot different than the other designs that I have seen currently on the SCAF.

 

[Deltafan]

Strange looking wing Deltafan, certainly a lot different than the other designs that I have seen currently on the SCAF.

Not very far from the wing of the wind tunnel test model (designated “Superman”) presented to the public by ONERA on March 17, 2023.

In any case, there would still be four designs in the running, there should only be two left in June 2024 and the final one should not be designated until March 2025. It could therefore be very different from what these videos and images show (and if this program goes through to the end, despite all current or potential dissensions, in its current form of cooperation).

FCAS weighing 4 fighter designs, could make final choice by March 2025 - Breaking Defense

"There is a good working atmosphere and the deliverables are being delivered," Major General Jean-Luc Moritz said of the French-German-Spanish future fighter system project.

breakingdefense.com

 

[TomcatViP]

I hope there will be no final choice before any flight testing.

 

[flateric]

certainly a lot different than the other designs that I have seen currently on the SCAF.

Dramatic difference, yes

 

[flateric]

Not very far from the wing of the wind tunnel test model (designated “Superman”) presented to the public by ONERA on March 17, 2023.

Of a note. Also planform matches first public Dassault NGF/SCAF concept. Common NATO studies split at birth?

 

[Deltafan]

Also planform matches first public Dassault NGF/SCAF concept.

Yes. The first appearance of this shape is May 3, 2018. We can, however, notice that the wing, as such, of the 2018 model is closer to a "diamond" shape than the "pure delta" of the model in the Safran and EUMET videos.

Common NATO studies split at birth?

I don't know.

I can only repeat what ONERA tell the media.

(...)
ONERA is also working to significantly improve the maneuverability of the NGF, as part of the SUPERMAN [SUPERMANoeuvrability] upstream research plan, financed from its own funds. “A generic form, which could be representative of the NGF, has been defined” in order to “experimentally characterize vortex flows in high incidence regimes in order to establish the link between vortices and aerodynamic forces,” explains ONERA. Tests were carried out for this purpose in the “low speed” wind tunnel in Lille, which is “ideal because it provides the necessary information by imposing oscillations on the model thanks to a dedicated device: the pqR assembly [p: roll rate , q: pitch rate and R: yaw rate], which makes it possible to impose rotational movements on the model in several directions,” explains ONERA.

Clearly, this involves studying the behavior of the aircraft at the limits of its flight envelope. And to improve its maneuverability, ONERA is closely interested in LEVCON type control surfaces [Leading Edge Vortex Controllers / Leading Edge Vortex Controllers], that is to say tilting planes located on fixed surfaces extending the the wing root [apex] of the aircraft. The Russian 5th generation fighter-bomber Su-57 “Felon” is equipped with it, as is the naval version of the Indian Tejas.
(...)

L'ONERA mène le programme SUPERMAN pour améliorer la manoeuvrabilité de l'avion de combat du futur - Zone Militaire

Pendant que les discussions entre la France, l'Allemagne et l'Espagne s'éternisaient au sujet du lancement de la phase 1B du Système de combat aérien du

www.opex360.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

Not very far from the wing of the wind tunnel test model (designated “Superman”) presented to the public by ONERA on March 17, 2023.

In any case, there would still be four designs in the running, there should only be two left in June 2024 and the final one should not be designated until March 2025. It could therefore be very different from what these videos and images show (and if this program goes through to the end, despite all current or potential dissensions, in its current form of cooperation).

FCAS weighing 4 fighter designs, could make final choice by March 2025 - Breaking Defense

"There is a good working atmosphere and the deliverables are being delivered," Major General Jean-Luc Moritz said of the French-German-Spanish future fighter system project.

breakingdefense.com

That "superman" test shape looks like it has the movable LERX like the Su57.

 

[Rhinocrates]

FCAS weighing 4 fighter designs, could make final choice by March 2025 - Breaking Defense

"There is a good working atmosphere and the deliverables are being delivered," Major General Jean-Luc Moritz said of the French-German-Spanish future fighter system project.

breakingdefense.com

Moritz was also at pains to explain that the British-Italian-Japanese Global Combat Air Program (GCAP) formerly known as Tempest, is not comparable to the SCAF because it involves only the development of the next-generation combat aircraft. It is not a system of systems as the SCAF is.

That strikes me as mistaken or a bit disingenuous as GCAP is meant to operate as a system of systems. Practically every new combat aircraft design is.

While obviously we don't have final designs for either, judging by the renders and models we have seen, GCAP seems to be a monster compared to SCAF. The latter will be expected to operate from French carrier(s) while GCAP will not - but it may have greater range and payload, requiring a larger aircraft.

 

[Deltafan]

That "superman" test shape looks like it has the movable LERX like the Su57.

Yes, as said by ONERA in my post just above yours, it was designed to study them.

 

[Rhinocrates]

A briefing from The Economist on the rapidly changing geopolitical circumstances in Europe and how they relate to defence policy.

Is Europe ready to defend itself?

Russian aggression and American wavering reveal just how ill-equipped the continent is

www.economist.com

May be paywalled if you've registered but exceeded a very small monthly quota. Here's where it relates to this thread:

The hitch is that countries with big defence industries—France, Germany, Italy and Spain—often fail to agree on how contracts should be split among their national arms-makers. There is also a trade-off between plugging holes quickly and building up the continent’s own defence industry. France is irked by a recent German-led scheme, the European Sky Shield Initiative, in which 21 European countries jointly buy air-defence systems, in part because it involves buying American and Israeli launchers alongside German ones. When Olaf Scholz, Germany’s chancellor, recently called for Europe to adopt a “war economy”, Benjamin Haddad, a French lawmaker in Emmanuel Macron’s Renaissance party, retorted, “It’s not by buying American equipment that we’re going to get there.” European arms-makers, he argued, will not hire workers and build production lines if they do not get orders.

These twin challenges—building up military capability and revitalising arms production—are formidable.Europe’s defence industry is less fragmented than many assume, says Jan Joel Andersson of the EU Institute forSecurity Studies in a recent paper: the continent makes fewer types of fighter jets and airborne radar planes than America, for instance. But there are inefficiencies. Countries often have different design priorities. France wants carrier-capable jets and lighter armoured vehicles; Germany prefers longer-range aircraft and heavier tanks. Europe-wide co-operation on tanks has consistently failed, writes Mr Andersson, and an ongoing Franco-German effort is in doubt.

 

[DWG]

Europe is unprepared for risks from Russia and Trump, says Airbus boss

Aerospace group chief executive urges UK and Europe to pool efforts and merge fighter jet programmes

www.theguardian.com

“It’s quite clear that we need to find a way to pool our efforts together as Europeans to have one very powerful capability by type of weapon system. Does it make sense to not come together for security and defence with the level of insecurity that we see at the borders of Europe? No, I think there’s no choice."

 

[kqcke for you]

Well back again but now with source. Yes this may not be accurate but all the other dates are so it seems unlikely to be wrong. I also wanne apologies for the small outburst before i changed the text as im pretty pissed if that is true.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1771139755918459046

View: https://x.com/Bjoern__M/status/1771139755918459046?s=20

Translation:
Lecornu: Timeline for MGCS 2040/50 and FCAS 2070
- "Will form a structure for NATO..."
8 industry shares for MGCS, split 50/50
CapabilityCoalition Air Defense #Ukraine: Lecornu mentions what has been done, nothing about new deliveries

 

[Broken]

I really don't understand how developing and fielding SCAF can possibly take that long.

 

[kqcke for you]

No clue and hope this may be like foc with new AA weapons included and not the Cloud, NGF or the RCs. Now as far as i heard its not for IOC (and i hope) this is just for all the user getting all there systems which i guess is ok. Yes it would be 46 years until alle jets are here but better than nothing.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I really don't understand how developing and fielding SCAF can possibly take that long.

Right. It shouldn't take more than about 20 years from now to get IOC, and that's starting largely from scratch like F22 over F15.

 

[H_K]

Yes this may not be accurate but all the other dates are so it seems unlikely to be wrong.

Definitely inaccurate - the journalist misunderstood. Lecornu said the FCAS partnership would run « until 2070 »… which makes sense.

This is the press conference video… around 11m0s the German translator says « MGCS FCAS da sprechen wir über Programme für die Jahre 2040, 2050 ein Kampfflugzeug bis in die Jahre 2070 »
…which Google translates as « For MGCS, FCAS we are talking about programs for the years 2040-2050, and for the fighter jets until the year 2070 »

Sometimes I wonder how much of the storm-in-a-teacup, lost-in-translation moments from the German press are honest mistakes versus intentional sabotage attempts... It really shouldn’t be so hard to understand the meaning of what was said, so immediately going 150% hysterical seems almost too forced to be honest reporting.

View: https://youtu.be/tAHUD5yQKD0?feature=shared

 

[kqcke for you]

Definitely inaccurate - the journalist misunderstood. Lecornu said the FCAS partnership would run « until 2070 »… which makes sense.

Good i haven't seen it before so i already tought it wasn't accurate but you never know with them.

This is the press conference video… around 11m0s the German translator says « MGCS FCAS da sprechen wir über Programme für die Jahre 2040, 2050 ein Kampfflugzeug bis in die Jahre 2070 »
…which Google translates as « For MGCS, FCAS we are talking about programs for the years 2040-2050, and for the fighter jets until the year 2070 »

Yeah that makes more sense.

Sometimes I wonder how much of the storm-in-a-teacup, lost-in-translation moments from the German press are honest mistakes versus intentional sabotage attempts...

Well some media will make sabotage attempts or anything close to it for the clicks but it would be new from him (atleast for me)

It really shouldn’t be so hard to understand the meaning of what was said, so immediately going 150% hysterical seems almost too forced to be honest reporting.

Maybe a rushed report which only used the minimum of space there on X for the information similiar to my first message (without the outburst).

View: https://youtu.be/tAHUD5yQKD0?feature=shared

Thanks.

 

[Broken]

It was part of Project Diabolo, it is just a concept for research purposes.

German Aerospace Center

www.dlr.de

The research programme was aimed towards developing Germany's digital design capabilities.

 

[ivran]

any 3 view of this Airbus FCAS
Inlet down, two vertical fins, very intrigant design
canard like inlet uper line, and more inovative details
so impresive study

 

[flateric]

there are plenty of angles in Airbus official videos to build a 3-view
but has it any sense as this is placeholder CGI?

 

[jsport]

A 7th-gen fighter? BAE has thoughts on what that could look like. - Breaking Defense

“We need to lose the generational name because aircraft are going to be evolving all the time," said BAE Systems’ combat air strategy director Mike Baulkwill.

breakingdefense.com

 

[Maro.Kyo]

Dassault plays down FCAS fears after Belgium joins as observer

Outspoken Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier says he remains sanguine about the possible participation of additional nations in the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme currently being developed for France, Germany and Spain.

www.flightglobal.com

In short, Dassault CEO Trappier now content with Belgium's participation after being angry about it. He even says that he doesn't mind their formal entry as developmental partner in EMD phase.

Project definition to end by 2025 and contract for demonstrator to be signed by 2026.

On a side note, Airbus and Dassault to submit proposals for ATL2 replacement by the end of this year. Airbus' proposal based on A320neo and Dassault's on Falcon 10X.

 

[FighterJock]

So given these dates for the definition to end in 2025 and the demonstrator to be signed in 2026 when would the demonstrator be ready?

 

[kqcke for you]

MBDA Germany wants to show the new RCM² Rmote Carrier Multidomain Multirole Effector in the Ila 2024. If i understand it right its there entry for the remote Carrier of FCAS.
https://www.hartpunkt.de/mbda-will-neuen-multidomain-multirole-remote-carrier-vorstellen/

 

[dark sidius]

MBDA Germany wants to show the new RCM² Rmote Carrier Multidomain Multirole Effector in the Ila 2024. If i understand it right its there entry for the remote Carrier of FCAS.
https://www.hartpunkt.de/mbda-will-neuen-multidomain-multirole-remote-carrier-vorstellen/

It is a cruise missile ? realy no innovation in it we see than Europe start to be out of the game in term of Air dominance

 

[kqcke for you]

It is a cruise missile ?

The remote Carrier where the expendable drones so yeah cruise missiles withore Features but then again if i remember it right FCAS was going to get loyal wingman.

realy no innovation in it we see than Europe start to be out of the game in term of Air dominance

I mean from what was released those can be equip with what is needed, sensor, warhead maybe even missiles and then can be launched from FCAS, VLS or transport aircraft. I think its a good idea for a low cost system to fill a lot of niches but yeah for air to air they probaly work only as sensor carrier. But thats good enough if it works as now one can truly go into BVR without having to risk a expensive asset but we have to wait and see what MBDA will show in the end.

 

[kqcke for you]

Kinda want see some kind of loyal wingman launched from an plane launching the small remote carrier xD

Edit: But on that note the loyal wingman would be an perfect solution to cooperate with sweden on theres. Saving money is what all 3 would probaly like.

 

[Deltafan]

So given these dates for the definition to end in 2025 and the demonstrator to be signed in 2026 when would the demonstrator be ready?

The last time I read about this, it was planned for 2029... (if I remember correctly, at the very beginning of the program, it was planned for 2025...)

https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/defense/avions-de-combat-ou-en-est-vraiment-le-projet-europeen-scaf_875855.amp

This phase 1B, lasting 36 months, is the subject of a total investment of 3 billion euros. France, like the other two countries, is financing a third of it, including 328 million euros this year and 307 million euros in 2024. The next stage will be, from 2026 to 2029, phase 2 of the program, equipped with a budget of around 5 billion euros. This work will enable the actual development of combat aircraft and drone demonstrators, with the aim of a first flight in 2029.

 

[FighterJock]

Thanks for the information about when the PANGs demonstrator date that it will be ready Deltafan.

 

[snne]

The last time I read about this, it was planned for 2029... (if I remember correctly, at the very beginning of the program, it was planned for 2025...)

https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/defense/avions-de-combat-ou-en-est-vraiment-le-projet-europeen-scaf_875855.amp

So the roll out could be around 2027 at the earliest? Around the same time when and Kaan nears the entrance into the service and KF-21 Block 2 and AMCA start flying.

Still the development would take a decade or so, but nevertheless this is an interesting POV.

 

[FighterJock]

It will be lucky if India's AMCA will be ready before the end of the decade snne, they have yet to even finalise the basic design and yet alone build a prototype.