Focke Wulf Fw 190 / Ta 152 Projects & Variants

[Johnbr]

One more of the bmw-802

 

[GTX]

It is one thing that artists/fanboys/whatever create as many more-or-less fictional designs as they want.
It is quite another thing that those fictions are brought here, and not in the fictional section.

The latter is simply creating opportunities for confusion and misunderstandings, ingenuous or otherwise.

If they are posted here by others than the creators it is hardly the fault of the creators.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. The Focke-Wulf 'Jager mit BMW 803' is real. See p55 of Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Third Reich. That model is just a particularly poor depiction of it. Besides the version shown in Luftwaffe, there were versions with radiators on the forward ends of the booms and on the nose. It is shown in Focke-Wulf drawings 0310 231-02A and 0310 231-04A and several that were not numbered.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Dizzyfugu makes pretty cool models more-or-less inspired by actual projects, but isn't overly concerned with accuracy of depiction. He is pretty good at posting clear descriptions of what they are. He made a nice Mikoyan Project 33 by cutting up an inaccurate MiG-29 model and splicing it together with a few spare bits - it overall resembles the Project 33 but isn't right in detail.

People reposting pics they found online without sources is what causes this kind of false impression. If everyone just posted their damn sources, you could trace the picture back to the source and understand what it is and what it isn't.

Some of the people annoyed by this stuff are repeat offenders at not giving sources in their own posts.

 

[dan_inbox]

If they are posted here by others than the creators it is hardly the fault of the creators.

Absolutely. As Paul wrote, the issue is the careless re-posting here, in the wrong section too.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
FW190TL.

http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/Fw190/Fw190.htm
"In 1941/42 Focke-Wulf modified a Fw 190 by replacing it's BMW 801 piston engine with a simple centrifugal turbojet engine of there own design, this comprised of a two-stage centrifugal compressor and a single-stage turbine, the exhaust exited through three annular outlets which were in the same place for the BMW piston engine ( two outlets at the side and one under the fuselage). Due to technical problems the project was canceled."

Cockpit and fuel tank overheat, noise and vibration.? ;D
According to the picture, side in the front of a fuselage was quite burned. We can confirm exhaust nozzle area from this picture.
The compressor of this engine looks like BMW two stage mechanical supercharger.
If this project went well, Fw190 became very scary and awsome fighter same as Me262.
Maximum Speed: 830 km/h

 

[Vladimir]

Super! The project was cancelled but there was a wind-tunnel tests?

 

[alfakilo]

It is one thing that artists/fanboys/whatever create as many more-or-less fictional designs as they want.
It is quite another thing that those fictions are brought here, and not in the fictional section.

The latter is simply creating opportunities for confusion and misunderstandings, ingenuous or otherwise.

I agree, particularly in the case of imagined action scenes of Japanese designs that only existed on paper laying waste to their adversaries. As interesting as they may be, wouldn't such things be better placed in the alternative history section?

 

[blackkite]

I can't find any picture of Fw190TL wind tunnel test model.
I believe that Fw190TL was a flying wind tunnel test model. ;D
The things under the wing were RATO? RATO means low output of this engine?

 

[Rickshaw]

I can't find any picture of Fw190TL wind tunnel test model.
I believe that Fw190TL was a flying wind tunnel test model. ;D
The things under the wing were RATO? RATO means low output of this engine?

The tubes under the wing are 21cm Werfer-granate rocket launching tubes, mounted on an Fw 190 A-8/R6

They are not RATO units. The photo has been retouched to remove the propeller.

 

[frank]

Are there in pics and details of his Project 33? A similar project is on my to-do list.

 

[Pioneer]

Hi!
FW190TL.

http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/Fw190/Fw190.htm
"In 1941/42 Focke-Wulf modified a Fw 190 by replacing it's BMW 801 piston engine with a simple centrifugal turbojet engine of there own design, this comprised of a two-stage centrifugal compressor and a single-stage turbine, the exhaust exited through three annular outlets which were in the same place for the BMW piston engine ( two outlets at the side and one under the fuselage). Due to technical problems the project was canceled."

Cockpit and fuel tank overheat, noise and vibration.? ;D

Regards
Pioneer
According to the picture, side in the front of a fuselage was quite burned. We can confirm exhaust nozzle area from this picture.
The compressor of this engine looks like BMW two stage mechanical supercharger.
If this project went well, Fw190 became very scary and awsome fighter same as Me262.
Maximum Speed: 830 km/h

Interesting, and seemingly simple adaption of an existing test and combat proven fighter design!
Was the concept ever tested and proven?
Would the standard Fw 190's wings have been able to facilitate 830 km/h??

 

[Imperialist]

Hi, according to this website: http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm there is a "Fw-190 H-1" proposed high-altitude fighter project. Can anyone shed some light for me on it? Was it simply a placeholder designation or something planned? ??? Also for Fw-190TL are there any dimensions for it as well?

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hi, according to this website: http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/variants.htm there is a "Fw-190 H-1" proposed high-altitude fighter project. Can anyone shed some light for me on it? Was it simply a placeholder designation or something planned? ??? Also for Fw-190TL are there any dimensions for it as well?

Nope. No such thing as the Fw 190 H-1. It wasn't a placeholder or anything planned. It's just a mistake on the part of whoever compiled that list. I have numerous original Focke-Wulf factory and design office Fw 190 type lists and the 'H-1' does not appear. The Fw 190 B and Fw 190 C certainly do. No such thing as the Fw 190TL either. I'm sure you mean the Fw 190 Strahljager, for which no dimensions are given in the original documentation. Luftwaffe: Secret Jets p55.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I think they meant Ta 152 H-1.

 

[Flitzer]

Thought these might help...

 

[blackkite]

Thanks a lot. Beautiful!!
How about your image for Fw Fighter Project with BMW P.8011 engine? ;D
BMW 801TJ engine single turbocharger is like this.
I imagine that bottom airintake is for intercooler, because BMW 801D ram airintake for supercharger is located behind the forced cooling fan.
Sorry for off topic.

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/forum/borbene-letelice-combat-warplanes/bmw-801-tj-bmw-803-i-db-610-engines-flugwerft-schleissheim/
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Deutsches_Museum/6098.html

I imagine burned and color changed duct is for exhaust gas and silver duct is for engine supply air.

Anyway Fw Fighter Project with BMW P.8011 engine needs following air/gas outlet both side of the fuselage.
① Engine cooling air outlet
② Intercooler cooling air outlet
③ Engine exhaust gas nozzle(one nozzle) through turbocharger (if BMW P.8011 engine had twin turbocharger)

 

[Flitzer]

I'll dig it out... ;D

 

[Imperialist]

Nope. No such thing as the Fw 190 H-1. It wasn't a placeholder or anything planned. It's just a mistake on the part of whoever compiled that list. I have numerous original Focke-Wulf factory and design office Fw 190 type lists and the 'H-1' does not appear. The Fw 190 B and Fw 190 C certainly do. No such thing as the Fw 190TL either. I'm sure you mean the Fw 190 Strahljager, for which no dimensions are given in the original documentation. Luftwaffe: Secret Jets p55.

Hi, was just reading through some of my books and stumbled upon this in Monogram Close Up 10 - FW 190D; "...Prof. Tank and his engineers were investigating the possibilities offered by the Fw 190 Ra-6 design study which [...] had become known as Fw-190H" (Pg 2). This makes it just a design study correct? Also is there any info on the various Fw-190 (Rechnerische Ankündigung) Ra-1 to Ra-8 (Ra-9?) design studies?

Ra-1: Standard Fw 190A wing, but with hydraulic undercarriage and Jumo 213 (V19 and V23)
Ra-4: As Ra-1 but with larger 20.3m^2 wing (Developed as Ta-153 Ra-1)
Ra-6: Fw 190H???
Ra-8: Standard Fw 190A wing, with electric undercarriage retraction, extended fuselage (V17 w/ eary Jumo 213)

However I am unsure on the other Ra developments. ???

Thanks,
Imperialist

 

[Apophenia]

Not sure about the source but FWIW ...

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Fw190-R.htm

"Fw 190 H-Reihe

Die Fw 190 H war die letzte Höhenjäger-Entwicklung der Fw 190 aus dem Jahr 1943. Intern lief die Entwicklung dieses Höhenjägers bei Focke-Wulf unter der Bezeichnung Fw 190 Ra-6. Projektiert war ein Gewicht von 4,6 Tonnen, eine Flügelfläche von 22,5 m² und eine Spannweite von 14,8 m. Der Rumpf solle ein verlängerter Rumpf der B-Reihe sein. Als Antrieb kamen der DB 603 G, der Jumo 213 E oder der DB 632 in Betracht. Errechnet wurde eine Höchstgeschwindigkeit von 740 km/h in 11.000 m. Außerdem sollte die Maschine eine Druckkabine erhalten. Um eine Höhenerprobung der Fw 190 mit dem DB 603 schnellstens durchzuführen, sollten drei Versuchsmaschinen umgerüstet werden. Das erste Versuchsmuster dieser Serie, die V 32, war ursprünglich für die Höhenjägererprobung mit DB 603 und dem Hirth-Abgasturbolager vorgesehen, dem sog. "Höhenjäger 2". In dieser Ausführung startete die V 32 erstmals am 11. November 1943. Ab dem 30. Dezember 1943 erhielt die Maschine mit der Kennung GH + KV eine 500 mm Rumpfverlängerung. In 6750 m Höhe erreichte die Maschine eine Geschwindigkeit von 686 km/h. Im Mai 1944 ging die Maschine dann zur Erprobung nach Rechlin. Problematisch waren bei der Maschine unerwünschte Giermomente, die durch schlechte Querruder hervorgerufen worden sind. Am 15. August 1944 startete die V 32 letztmalig in dieser Ausführung. Anschließend wurde sie zum neuen Höhenjäger Fw Ta 152 H umgebaut. Die Entwicklung wurde zu Gunsten der Parallelentwicklung Fw Ta 152 eingestellt."

So, paraphrasing ... Fw 190H (aka Fw 190 Ra-6) was a 1943 high-altitude fighter project using the Fw 190B series' fuselage with pressurized cockpit. Powered by DB 603G, Jumo 213 E, or DB 632. Weight to be 4.6 tonnes, wing area ​​22.5 m², and wingspan 14.8 m. Maximum speed 740 km / h at 11,000 m.

The Fw 190 V32 prototype was fitted with a DB 603 and Hirth-exhaust turbocharger as the 'Höhenjäger 2' ('Altitude fighter 2') and flown for the first time on 11 Nov 1943. By 30 Dec 1943, the V32 was marked as GH+KV and had its fuselage lengthened by 500mm. At an altitude of 6,750 m, a speed of 686 km/h was reached. In May 1944, the machine then went to Rechlin for testing. Problems were encountered with undesirable yaw moments resulting from flawed aileron design. Flown for the last time on 15 Aug 1944, the V 32 was then converted into a new altitude fighter, the Ta 152H. Fw 190H/Ra-6 development was discontinued in favor of the parallel Ta 152.

 

[Imperialist]

Not sure about the source but FWIW ...

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Fw190-R.htm

"Fw 190 H-Reihe

Die Fw 190 H war die letzte Höhenjäger-Entwicklung der Fw 190 aus dem Jahr 1943. Intern lief die Entwicklung dieses Höhenjägers bei Focke-Wulf unter der Bezeichnung Fw 190 Ra-6. Projektiert war ein Gewicht von 4,6 Tonnen, eine Flügelfläche von 22,5 m² und eine Spannweite von 14,8 m. Der Rumpf solle ein verlängerter Rumpf der B-Reihe sein. Als Antrieb kamen der DB 603 G, der Jumo 213 E oder der DB 632 in Betracht. Errechnet wurde eine Höchstgeschwindigkeit von 740 km/h in 11.000 m. Außerdem sollte die Maschine eine Druckkabine erhalten. Um eine Höhenerprobung der Fw 190 mit dem DB 603 schnellstens durchzuführen, sollten drei Versuchsmaschinen umgerüstet werden. Das erste Versuchsmuster dieser Serie, die V 32, war ursprünglich für die Höhenjägererprobung mit DB 603 und dem Hirth-Abgasturbolager vorgesehen, dem sog. "Höhenjäger 2". In dieser Ausführung startete die V 32 erstmals am 11. November 1943. Ab dem 30. Dezember 1943 erhielt die Maschine mit der Kennung GH + KV eine 500 mm Rumpfverlängerung. In 6750 m Höhe erreichte die Maschine eine Geschwindigkeit von 686 km/h. Im Mai 1944 ging die Maschine dann zur Erprobung nach Rechlin. Problematisch waren bei der Maschine unerwünschte Giermomente, die durch schlechte Querruder hervorgerufen worden sind. Am 15. August 1944 startete die V 32 letztmalig in dieser Ausführung. Anschließend wurde sie zum neuen Höhenjäger Fw Ta 152 H umgebaut. Die Entwicklung wurde zu Gunsten der Parallelentwicklung Fw Ta 152 eingestellt."

So, paraphrasing ... Fw 190H (aka Fw 190 Ra-6) was a 1943 high-altitude fighter project using the Fw 190B series' fuselage with pressurized cockpit. Powered by DB 603G, Jumo 213 E, or DB 632. Weight to be 4.6 tonnes, wing area ​​22.5 m², and wingspan 14.8 m. Maximum speed 740 km / h at 11,000 m.

The Fw 190 V32 prototype was fitted with a DB 603 and Hirth-exhaust turbocharger as the 'Höhenjäger 2' ('Altitude fighter 2') and flown for the first time on 11 Nov 1943. By 30 Dec 1943, the V32 was marked as GH+KV and had its fuselage lengthened by 500mm. At an altitude of 6,750 m, a speed of 686 km/h was reached. In May 1944, the machine then went to Rechlin for testing. Problems were encountered with undesirable yaw moments resulting from flawed aileron design. Flown for the last time on 15 Aug 1944, the V 32 was then converted into a new altitude fighter, the Ta 152H. Fw 190H/Ra-6 development was discontinued in favor of the parallel Ta 152.

Thank you Apophenia, I appreciate the response and source as well

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/299516-a-new-heart-for-the-shrike-the-search-for-new-fw-190-engines/

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi

 

[blackkite]

Thanks. DB609 V16 is very powerful! I can understand BMW801J layout very clearly.
http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20412/mk%20412%20motorkanone%20db%20609%20db%20613.html

 

[hesham]

From Flugzeug Classic 5/2016,

here is a Ta.153 drawing.

 

[Wurger]

Here`s one I didn`t know about! Go to:

http://www.reflexvisier.com/rf-2b

and scroll down. Very interesting design, with an added drawing portraying what could be an otherwise unknown (to me) Fw 190 version with a steped up cockpit featuring a prone pilot.

Meanwhile, browse through Erwin`s excellent website.

 

[hesham]

Excellent and great find my dear Wurger,

and we can put it here,until we search if it was real or not ?.

 

[Wurger]

Other than the pencil drawing I have no doubt it`s real. The pencil add on is arguably contemporary, but I will put my two cents that it is.

 

[robunos]

Even without the added drawing of the prone pilot and periscopic sight, that's a very interesting drawing, as it seems to show a Jumo 222 powerplant...


cheers,
Robin.

 

[Nick Sumner]

Some sort of 'Zwilling' design?

 

[Wurger]

There are at least one other (later) drawing with the Jumo 222, no news about it. The "scoop", IMHO, is the forward cockpit And the prone pilot.

 

[Wurger]

Looking at Dan`s "Luftwaffe: Secret Jets of the Luftwaffe" I figured that almost all the 0310025 series relate to Jumo 222 engined Fw 190`s, dating as far back as October 24th 1942 and up to 2nd February 1945.

 

[robunos]

To my shame, I was unaware of the existence of Jumo 222 powered Fw190 projects... :-[

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Additional info

 

[Michel Van]

Justo Miranda is back and he brings presents ;D

nice art work

 

[Justo Miranda]

 

[newsdeskdan]

Hello, I've been a long time lurker of Secret Projects and I was hoping if anyone had any further information on the Fw-190 A-10. So far the info I've been able to glean are: the first attached image is supposedly from a Kagero drawings book and the latter is a kitbash from What-If forums from what I have found over the internet. Does anybody have info on the new wing the aircraft was to have and the the placement of the 30mm Mk103's in the wings? I post occasionally on Shipbucket and I've been working on drawing the entire Focke-Wulf 190/Ta-152 series so any thing in the ways of blueprints would be greatly appreciated. Also attached is a WIP drawing of the Fw-190 F-10 using the available info I have, if anyone can suggest changes that would be helpful as well.

Sincerely,
Imperialist

Incidentally, the Fw 190 A-10 isn't quite what everyone thinks...

 

[Justo Miranda]

A-10 info

 

[newsdeskdan]

A-10 info

The A-10 itself looks entirely unremarkable except for its Ta 152 tail fin. This (your ramjet drawing) is something that could have been added to the A-10, rather than the A-10 itself. Incidentally, look at the date even of this - April 1944. The documents I have date the A-10 itself from towards the end of 1943. Not exactly the last-gasp end-of-war project I think everyone (including me) assumed it was.

 

[sgeorges4]

Ta 152 C and E variant on fighters : http://fighters.forumactif.com/t61403-ta-152-c-et-e-c-est-reparti
(in french)