Focke Wulf Fw 190 / Ta 152 Projects & Variants

[martinbayer]

What was the Idea behind this concept ?
just like P-51D with Marquardt ram engine, getting more speed ?
and is this the origin for the P-51D Ramjet test in 1946 ?

This site claims the plan was to test the engines intended for the Triebfluegel concept: http://paralympic-ph.com/germanvtol/tribflugfolder/drawing3.html

Martin

 

[Jemiba]

Seems nevertheless to be quite an immature idea to me. As Bill pointed out, small delays in
starting an engine, or differences in the produced thrust would have been very dangerous,
probably fatal. And what I once read about testing of the Lorin engines (on the back of Do 17/
Do 217) thrust setting wasn't very sensitive. Putting a single engine under the belly probably
would have been safer for the test pilot.

But many thanks for that link, Martin.

 

[CJGibson]

A ramjet for the Spitfire was looked at in 1940, again in 1944 and the RAE flew a Mustang I with twelve RAE PD.1 ramjets in 1944. See BSP.4 Ch.10.

A lot of parallel evolution went on in this field, so suspect that was the case with the US Mustang project. Plus US ramjet effort was ahead of everyone else in 1945 anyway.

Chris

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi

 

[Madoc]

Okay, so, it was real, then?

At least "real" in concept, right?

I ask as I just picked up a model kit of such a configuration and the other items by the same manufacturer, Bird Models, seemed more like post-war "Luft 46!" inventions than anything actually worked up during the war.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Real project,please see attached microfilm with Focke Wulf logo and 1/144 model from Paul Malmassari.

 

[Jemiba]

As Martin found on that site about that site mentioned above, this installation was meant as a test
for the Triebflügel project. If that's correct, the model with its armamnet and paintwork would be more a "whif",
not to disparage the skill of the modeller.
I would think, with regards to shape and size of that ramjet, it was the same type, as envisaged for the Triebflügel
and probably more powerful, than those actually fitted to the wingtips of the P-51 and F-80 (The former test aircraft
is mentioned as having been lost here http://www.enginehistory.org/f-80tj.shtml, anybody knows the reason ?).

 

[martinbayer]

There's a bit more alleged background information (mostly in German, without a source quote) in the item description at this Ebay sale of a corresponding model kit modification: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190-A-10-Lorin-1-72-Bird-Models-Bausatz-/231096384882

Relevant (translated) text passages:

"Model kit of a projected but not realized research aircraft for high speed flight, the Focke Wulf FW 190 A-10 Lorin"

"When Focke Wulf was designing its Triebflügel, it began the development of small, powerful ramjet engines. In order to test them, a high-performance airplane was to be used, since ramjets begin to work only at a minimum speed of 300 km/h. For this purpose, it was decided to convert a Focke Wulf FW 190 A-10 series aircraft, so that an engine would be mounted on each wing tip. Thus, it was hoped to bring the engine to series production, and this construction was also seen as an important milestone in the development of the actual Triebflügel design. The project failed partly due to the lack of availability of the engines, and on the other hand, the RLM did not want to provide a test aircraft."

"This airplane had been projected in 1944 for testing the ramjets for the FW Triebfluegel. Because ramjets are [sic, obviously a 'not' missing] working until a speed of min. 300 km/h, it was planned to test the ramjets on a high power airplane like the FW 190."

Martin

 

[Madoc]

Good. I'm feeling better about my purchase then! I like "what ifs" and all manner of paper projects - but they have to be real paper projects and not some imaginings conjured post-war.

As to armament on the test aircraft, would an unarmed German plane - even one conducting test flights - be a wise choice?

 

[jimbrooks]

and is this the origin for the P-51D Ramjet test in 1946 ?

AFAIK, the ram-jet of the P-51 tested in 1946 was a US design made by Marquardt.
Another P-51 was fitted with a German engine which was actually a pulse-jet.
(I collected some info here http://www.jimbrooks.org/aviation/info_P-51Mustang.php)

A ramjet for the Spitfire was looked at in 1940, again in 1944 and the RAE flew a Mustang I with twelve RAE PD.1 ramjets in 1944. See BSP.4 Ch.10.

What book does "BSP" refer to?

 

[Orionblamblam]

[quote author=jimbrooks link=topic=21466.msg212270#msg212270
What book does "BSP" refer to?


"British Secret Projects." Book series.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Lorin and Triebflügel VTOL

 

[Lonewulf]

This is my 1/72 Fw 190 with wingtip ramjets. Revell 190 with my own Lonewulf conversion. The Germans tested ramjets of various sizes, first on the back of an Opel Blitz lorry then on Dornier Do217E.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Beauty!

 

[hesham]

And from Flugzeug Classic 2/2005.

 

[J.A.W.]

British appraisal of BMW (& others) from 'Flight' in `45..

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945%20-%202395.html

 

[hesham]

Re: Various Focke-Wulf projects

From Jet & Prop 5/2009,


the external tanks for Focke Wulf Fw.190,the mounted over the wing is
very strange by that time.

 

[Imperialist]

Hello, I've been a long time lurker of Secret Projects and I was hoping if anyone had any further information on the Fw-190 A-10. So far the info I've been able to glean are: the first attached image is supposedly from a Kagero drawings book and the latter is a kitbash from What-If forums from what I have found over the internet. Does anybody have info on the new wing the aircraft was to have and the the placement of the 30mm Mk103's in the wings? I post occasionally on Shipbucket and I've been working on drawing the entire Focke-Wulf 190/Ta-152 series so any thing in the ways of blueprints would be greatly appreciated. Also attached is a WIP drawing of the Fw-190 F-10 using the available info I have, if anyone can suggest changes that would be helpful as well.

Sincerely,
Imperialist

 

[Jemiba]

Welcome here,

I'm not an expert for the Fw 190, only thing I found by a quick search is, that wing
area was increased from 18.3 to 20.5 sqm according to Nowarra and that varaints
R1 to R3 (analogue to the A-9) show up in contemporary documents, but if they actually
were built is unproven.
About your attachements, I would suggest, that you send them to the mail adress I just
sent via PM and I'll attach them to your post. Five posts are the minimum number for the
forum software to allow attaching pictures, IIRC. But we can easily solve htis problem,
I think.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi

 

[Jemiba]

With 20,5 m, span would have been doubled, resulting in a kind of F-104- to U 2 modification.
I think, it's a typo and meant was wing area.

 

[PlanesPictures]

???

 

[GTX]

a kitbash from What-If forums from what I have found over the internet

This was one that I did back in 2008. It was based upon available descriptions at the time which were that the A-10 version would have looked nearly the same as an A-9 with the exception of the larger tail and an uprated engine.

 

[blackkite]

Thanks. Super!!! My professor.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Thanks. Super!!! My professor.

I've done a lot of work with the original documents. More to follow.

 

[blackkite]

Hi!
Fw Fighter Project with BMW P.8011 engine.
P.8011 engine's base is BMW 802 engine. BMW 802 engine had two stage two speed mechanical supercharger which located front of the engine.
BMW P.8011 engine had two stage three speed mechanical supercharger, intercooler and two small turbochargers.
But I can't find turbochargers in this side view drawing. Where is the turbocharger? Both side of the front fuselage same as turbo Raiden?
Of course this top drawing dose not include engine crank shaft, cylinders and pistons.

http://aviacia-all.ru/fokke_vulf_BMW802.php
"Alternative powerplant (sketch design was not accepted): 1 x BMW R8011 takeoff power 2800-2900 l.; Here we are talking about a BMW 802 with two turbochargers and two coaxial aerial propellers."

From Luft46
"P.8011 engine. This powerplant had a 2800-2900 HP take off rating. It was basically a BMW 802 with two exhaust gas turbines enclosed in an aerodynamic cowling, and it drove two contrarotating propellers."

Mechanical supercharger of BMW801 engine is located rear of the engine.
http://forums.airforce.ru/attachments/do-1945/68046d1448095731-bmw-801.jpg/

 

[Vladimir]

Thanks, here is what i faind: http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/157773-creating-the-german-super-prop-fw-190d12-with-jumo-213eb-engine/ It's a little off thema but interesting

 

[Vladimir]

And four speculative drawings by myself

[/quote]


Just, cool!!! as always, Justo! B)

 

[blackkite]

But this drawing which hesham-san posted seems to have engine exhaust nozzle without turbocharger. Hmmm....???
Anyway engine exhaust nozzles were located front side of the fuselage.
Sorry for duplicating post.

I find another two stage mechanical supercharger shape(perhaps BMW design) in internet.

 

[blackkite]

Ummm.....turbocharger?? ;D

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Focke Wulf fighter project with BMW803 engine.

 

[Johnbr]

 

[blackkite]

Thanks a lot. Super!!!
This bottom drawing shows BMW802 engine with two stage mechanical supercharger which located rear of the engine?

 

[blackkite]

After all, in essence, it's a fake? ;D

 

[Michel Van]

After all, in essence, it's a fake? ;D

I found the Source of those Picture
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/5074888145
the maker "dizzyfugu" say about this design this:

From the original 1941 annular radiator design (a ring opening around the central fuselage), the arrangement was modified in April 1943 to a single drum radiator in the nose and, alternatively, twin drum radiators in the front ends of the tailbooms. The latter design is the layout I chose for my model, or better: where I ended up (see below).

his source:

Valuable sources:
Walter Schick, Ingolf Meyer: Luftwaffe Secret Projects, Fighters 1939-1945, Hinckley, 2005
(this is an English translation of the original German edition, Stuttgart, 1994, but with many colored illustrations added).

Sundin, Claes; Bergstroem, Christer: Deutsche Jaqgdflugzeuge 1939-1945 in Farbprofilen, Bonn, 1999.

www.luft46.com -

wp.scn.ru - "Wings Palette" - a Russian website which collects plane profiles and some details about the respective machine's history.
A nice reference archive, since a lot information concerning colors can be found there, too. Handling is poor, though. But once you get it, it is a great model kit building source.

 

[blackkite]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/5074888153

"1:72 Luft '46 - "Red 3" Focke Wulf Fighter with BMW 803 engine (kitbashing/scratch-built) - firing a X-4 missile against B-24 bombers
+++ DISCLAIMER +++
Nothing you see here is real, even though the conversion or the presented background story might be based historical facts. BEWARE!
How it came to be:
It has been a long time since I built a "real" airplane kit, and this one here is a one-of-a-kind. After a bleak phase with lots of reading about German WWII airplane projects I found a spark to fire up a project I kept in the back of my mind for a long time: building one of these semi-fictional WWII airplanes from scratch. These astonishing designs were on the drawing boards at their time and rarely made it beyond that. Only a few reached prototype status at the end of the war, but today these partly weird designs are the basis of today's Luft '46 model kit genre: What-if airplanes, based on sketches, construction plans and pure speculation, in the case the war would have gone on."

Above explanation means fake?

 

[Zizi6785]

After all, in essence, it's a fake? ;D

Absolutly fake! It is just a what-if model!

 

[blackkite]

I hope to the artist to stop such ambiguous thing. There is no meaning. A really mischievous act. I feel extreme anger.

 

[martinbayer]

I hope to the artist to stop such ambiguous thing. There is no meaning. A really mischievous act. I feel extreme anger.

If that type of thing really gets you upset, you better not visit http://www.whatifmodelers.com/, where Dizzyfugu displays his most recent creations on a fairly regular basis. I for one actually hope he'll continue doing so for quite some time to come, because I really enjoy both his creativity and his artistry. In my view there is as little or as much "meaning" in his pursuits (which after all are a hobby) as there is in any artwork or work of fiction/alternate history, but of course YMMV.

Martin

 

[dan_inbox]

It is one thing that artists/fanboys/whatever create as many more-or-less fictional designs as they want.
It is quite another thing that those fictions are brought here, and not in the fictional section.

The latter is simply creating opportunities for confusion and misunderstandings, ingenuous or otherwise.