Got any more details on that thing? This is the third or fourth time I've seen it, but I have yet to figure out what exactly it's supposed to be. The very generic name and language barrier make it impossible to find. I'm assuming it's something like the old small-caliber infantry guns (37mm Modele 1916 or Vickers-Crayford), or the interwar lightweight antitank guns like the QF 2-pounder.
In return, another Russian oddity: the 6P62. A shoulder-fired, full-auto capable 12.7x108mm rifle designed by the Degtyarev Plant and possibly in limited use with special forces (being a Spetsnaz armorer or ammo handler must be a nightmare).
About 23 and 30 mm guns - I said all I know.
I think, it like a Maadi-Griffin 30x173 cannon (weight 21.6 kg or 47.62 lbs):
SP-30 potential is a more stability and accuracy than this gun. SP in very powwrful - it's a 385-400 g (0.849-0.882 lbs) with 820 mps (2690 fps) and energy 129-134 kiloJoules. With this gun you can hunt on armoured vehicles - standart NATO vehicles protected from 14.5x114 with B-32 AP bullet, but, not protected from huge 23x165 and 30x165 guns on 1000-2000 metres.
...
About assault rifles in 12.7x108... I know about more interesting gun, constructed by engineer Barishev in 1985 and rebuilted in 2015-2019 in Russia and Belarus - it's a modular 12.7 mm and 30 mm grenade launcher:
Original guns was a KPB in 12.7x108 and weight 13.4-14 kg, and ARGB in 30x29 and weight 15.3 kg, but, today, Russian and Belarussian engineers talk about ARGB in weight 8-9.5 kg, with removable 30 mm and 12.7 mm barrels, and, with removable belt-fed machanism for grenades, for use a box of AGS-17 and AGS-30 grenade launchers, with belt on 29-30 grenades. I don't know about belt-fed mechanism for this gun in 12.7x108, but, I think, it's not a problem.
Simonov SVS-138 experimental rifle for 7.62 mm M62 cartridge, 1963
Experimental 7.62 mm cartridge, 1962:
Case of 7.62x54R (top) and 7.62x44 M62, with capacity 3 cm cub.
Constructed two caslrtridges, with base diameter 12.4 mm, capacity 2.65 cm cub. and propellant charge 2.491 g:
- Bi-Metal case, lenght 41 mm, overall lenght 63.5 mm, weight of case 7.34 g, weight of round 19 g
- Aluminium case, lenght 44 mm, overall lenght 66.5 mm, weight of case 3.44 g, weight of round 15.5 g
Bullet - like a 5.45x39 (longer than standart 7.62x54R bullet), but, bigger. Weight - ~9-9.5 g (139-147 gr), muzzle velocity 835-850 mps (2740-2789 fps) from barrel with 657 mm rifled section, energy 3138-3432 Joules
Idea - cartridge for rifles and LMG, for replacing of 7.62x54R and 7.62x39.
Also, about special powerful 7.62 mm cartridges, for PK LMG and rifles:
Cases - standart 7.62x54R, and case with capacity 3 cm cub.
OP1-62-61 - case 7.62x54R, bullet "2JJ" ("2ЖЖ"), 318 MPa, muzzle velocity 920 mps, range of direct shot range 477 m (standart 7.62x54R - 430 m)
"We need a cartridge with direct shot range 500-520, chance to hit on 1000 m increase, for LMG 1.4-2 times, for rifle 2-3 times"
Other cartridge - bullet 8.8 g (136 gr), 308 MPa, muzzle velocity 975 mps (3200 fps), range of direct shot range 495 m.
By tests, chance to hit increase only 1.15-1.32 times, but, it's also recognized as good.
Also, managed to find a solution for decrease of pressure to 284 MPa, for normal work of automatics.
Works was closed - "we can't create a universal aim for old and new cartridge, but, we created sniper cartridge 7N1, more accuracy than standart 7.62x54R, and more effective than standart cartridges on large distance".
...
I think, It's a very interesting idea - we can use a normal cartridge (7.62 M62) in rifles, but, if we need a "work" on large distance, we can use "magnum" cartridge (yes, in this text this experiments named a "magnumisation").
do you perhaps also have some infos about the russian 6x49mm round, i was very interested in this round and i also found some infos about but it´s in russian but for the worst neither do i read or understand russian.
from the infos i found out it was quite a capable round but because of it´s sheer power the wear on the barrel was quite high and then there came the collapse of the Soviet Union....
thx for all the infos you have shared!
do you perhaps also have some infos about the russian 6x49mm round, i was very interested in this round and i also found some infos about but it´s in russian but for the worst neither do i read or understand russian.
from the infos i found out it was quite a capable round but because of it´s sheer power the wear on the barrel was quite high and then there came the collapse of the Soviet Union....
thx for all the infos you have shared!
First, a little hystory, about Russian 6 mm cartridges.
One of the first 6 mm round constructed by engineer Privalov, 1890, based on .42 Russian Berdan cartridge. In my calculations, muzzle energy of this cartridge, depending on load, was a 30-54% less, than standart .42 cartridge. This cartridge constructed for experimental automatic rifle.
Later, in 1911-1913 engineer Fedorov worket at small-caliber cartridges. 6 mm with heavy 7 g (108 gr) bullet, 3.66 cm cub. capacity, muzzle velocity 965.8 mps (3168 fps) was a most accuracy and lightest cartridge, but, military were skeptical of stopping power of small calibers. Also, Fedorov created overpressure high-velocity cartridges, with big case (capacity 5.66 cm cub.), 405.3 MPa and, in 6 mm variant, 1075 mps (3527 fps) - but, I don't know about weight of bullet, in 6 mm caliber lightest bullet was a 5.7 g (88 gr). And, this cartridge was a "father", or, "grandfather" of Soviet 6x49 cartridge.
In 1975-1981 created experimental 6x54 cartridge:
Muzzle velocity 1080 mps (3543 fps), bullet 5 g (77 gr) - like a Fedorov overpressure 6 mm - weight of round 18 g (278 gr). Range of direct shot - 540 m
Based on 6x54 created 6x49, with analogical bullet, but, with muzzle velocity 1150 mps (3773 fps)
You can see: 6x54, four types of 6x49, experimental 6 mm, based on 6x49, with experimental bullet with increased core, and, for comparison, Fedorov 6.5x57 (his 6x57 also created in this case).
Types of 6x49 - from left to right:
- Standart bullet, steel core
- AP bullet, steel core
- AP bullet, wolfram-cobalt core
- Standart bullet, steel core with covering
Also, 6x49, first three types:
About rifles:
SVK and SVKS rifles*:
Full lenght 1188 mm - for comparison, lenght of Dragunov SVD - 1225 mm, but, barrel in SVK - 720 mm, versus 620 mm in SVD. SVK is a more accuracy, than SVD, on 630 m - 1.33 times, on 770 m - 1.73 times, on 970 and 1030 m - 3.89 times. One problem - weight of SVK without scope and rounds, with magazine - 4.2 kg versus 3.8 kg of SVD.
Other 6x49 gun, TKB-0145K, late 1990th:
Anological barrel, but, weight without scope and rounds - only 4 kg.
LMG for 6x49, theme "Gashetka"
Kulikov and Suslov AO-64/AO-64M (6.85 kg, muzzle velocity - to 1050 mps, integrated x4 scope), Klimovsk, 1989:
Belts - 75, 100 and 200-rd
Nevizhin TKB-0170, Tula, 1989-1990:
And, with 100-round cilinder magazine:
Other 6 mm LMG, Tula:
About assault rifles in 6x49 - Russian gunmakers talk, "We didn't design this, it's only fantasies of American journalists". But, I thread about assault rifle in other 6 mm cartridge but, I haven't data.
...
About assault rifles in 12.7x108... I know about more interesting gun, constructed by engineer Barishev in 1985 and rebuilted in 2015-2019 in Russia and Belarus - it's a modular 12.7 mm and 30 mm grenade launcher: View attachment 624162
Original guns was a KPB in 12.7x108 and weight 13.4-14 kg, and ARGB in 30x29 and weight 15.3 kg, but, today, Russian and Belarussian engineers talk about ARGB in weight 8-9.5 kg, with removable 30 mm and 12.7 mm barrels, and, with removable belt-fed machanism for grenades, for use a box of AGS-17 and AGS-30 grenade launchers, with belt on 29-30 grenades. I don't know about belt-fed mechanism for this gun in 12.7x108, but, I think, it's not a problem.
I've heard about the Baryshev and the versions by LCZ Group of the Czech Republic, but that's the first time I've heard of using it as a belt-fed. They call the 30mm version either the RAG-30 or SAG-30 (one is apparently a closed-bolt semiauto) and feeds from a five-round top-mounted box like a vz. 26 or Bren, and I've seen versions of the 12.7x108 using both a Bren-type or a conventionally placed magazine. LCZ/Czech Weapons looks to be producing the more conventional design as the CZW 127.
...
About assault rifles in 12.7x108... I know about more interesting gun, constructed by engineer Barishev in 1985 and rebuilted in 2015-2019 in Russia and Belarus - it's a modular 12.7 mm and 30 mm grenade launcher: View attachment 624162
Original guns was a KPB in 12.7x108 and weight 13.4-14 kg, and ARGB in 30x29 and weight 15.3 kg, but, today, Russian and Belarussian engineers talk about ARGB in weight 8-9.5 kg, with removable 30 mm and 12.7 mm barrels, and, with removable belt-fed machanism for grenades, for use a box of AGS-17 and AGS-30 grenade launchers, with belt on 29-30 grenades. I don't know about belt-fed mechanism for this gun in 12.7x108, but, I think, it's not a problem.
I've heard about the Baryshev and the versions by LCZ Group of the Czech Republic, but that's the first time I've heard of using it as a belt-fed. They call the 30mm version either the RAG-30 or SAG-30 (one is apparently a closed-bolt semiauto) and feeds from a five-round top-mounted box like a vz. 26 or Bren, and I've seen versions of the 12.7x108 using both a Bren-type or a conventionally placed magazine. LCZ/Czech Weapons looks to be producing the more conventional design as the CZW 127.
I know about four "variants" of Baryshev system:
- In USSR
- In Czech Republic
- In Russian Federation in 2015
- In Belarus in 2019
Many photos in internet - from Czech Republic. There was a big scandal with Czechs and the name of the engineer, and, I heard, the contract was broken.
About Baryshev in Russia, 2015:
"Three types of load - magazine, bunker and belt from AGS-17 or AGS-30"
"It's a prototype, we're planning a fix of mount for modern scopes"
"It's a weapon for hand use, and for vehicles, for example - on ATV"
And, shoot with old 15 kg version.
"We will reduce recoil, there is no muzzle device on this barrel, and, there is no rubber pad on this butt"
Belarus:
About removable barrels and belt-fed.
I forgot where i found data about weight 8 kg.
Unfortunately there is no accurate more info about 5,6mm except this img. Papkin presumed that this cartrige was developed for Shpitalny experimental MG.
Total weight 13,5kg
Length 1,25m
Grenade weight 1,4kg
Grenade caliber 70mm
Projectile weight 9g (P-45 gunpowder)
Direct fire range 150m
This grenade launcher was developed in 1943-1944 by NIPSVO (НИПСВО - Научно-Исследовательский Полигон Стрелкового Вооружения - Firearms research center) after study of trophy GrB-39 and Panzerschreck.
Lost to RPG-1
What in the name of all that is holy...a pump-action homemade launcher for 30x29 VOG-17/30 grenades. Well, I'm guessing homemade because it looks like someone dug it out of a bog, but some real thought and work went into that monstrosity. Looks like a fully milled receiver loosely inspired by an M1918 BAR, straight-line stock like the M79 or the T25, looks like the pistol grip and trigger assembly were recycled from something else (but I can't place what), and...hold up, that forward grip looks somehow familiar. That pump grip is chopped out of something else entirely, either an older military rifle or SMG. Maybe a Beretta M1938 (somehow)? The whole thing is both absolutely hacked-together but also well-built and maybe even functional at a glance. I'm thinking this thing has to have come out of an underground arms plant in Chechnya or Georgia or somewhere. I know the criminal element over that way gets pretty creative at times.
No, wait, looking further up this thread I think it has to be some version of the ZiD 23mm you posted earlier. The receiver is too similar to not be, and while it's rusty and has had the furniture replaced, the two have to be related.
Did some more digging. If your description of the ZiD as a 4-bore 26.5mm is correct we might be looking at something completely different here, 26.5mm is a standard European military flare size and a brief Google safari has turned up at least two long guns chambered for it. The CZ Brno RG-85, which is a single-shot break-action:
And the utterly baffling 15-shot Polish RGA-86, which looks to be based on the Manville gun, which also came in 26.5mm.
So here's my guess: the ZiD, much like the RGA-86 (and maybe the RV-85, can't find much detail on that) were 26.5mm riot guns capable of firing flare, smoke or tear gas rounds. Much like how the KS-23 can fire not only buckshot or slugs, but tear gas and flashbang shells. BUT the rounds shown with the rusty monstrosity are absolutely 30x29mm VOG-17/17M/30 grenades, so either someone is playing around or ZiD were trying to rechamber their unsuccessful riot gun for something with a bit more bite.
The MG 08, often mistakenly called the Maxim MG 08, is a German derivative of the Maxim gun used during WW1. The new, portable automatic weapon that emerged was christened the MG08/15. Developed under the direction of Colonel von Merkatz, the MG08/15 was an adaptation of the MG08. This design...
The Model 1917, also known as the "Trench Carbine", was a German prototype self-loading carbine that was produced by Mauser. The Model 1917 was conceived during World War I to meet the German Army's demand for a close-ranged assault weapon that could be used employed by Stormtroopers for trench...
DP-39/DP-40 experimental LMG, 11.4 kg (25.13 lbs), 600-650 rpm, velt for DS-39 machine gun:
...
DS-39 - variant for tanks, with bipods for use outside a tank (original DS-39 - from 600 to 1200 rpm):
...
Yurchenko small-serial medium machine gun - "Shkval" ("Squall"), 7.62x54R, ~10 kg (22 lbs), 1500-1800 rpm:
...
Experimental Cold war perod Makarov autocannons, 30 mm TKB-539 and 23 mm TKB-532:
...
40 mm (?) variant of GM-93 grenade launcher, VOG-25 caseless grenades, 3+1 VOG-25P or 4+1 standart VOG-25 (original GM-93 use 43 mm grenades, like a NATO 40 mm, and, with 3-rd magazine):
For comparison, standart variant with 43 mm grenades:
Ниша тяжелого(станкового) пулемета занята ККП, АГС и вооружением на технике. Ниша единого(станкового+ручного) пулемета формально существует, ЕМНИП, даже нек...
Unknown modern assault rifle in 6x49 cartridge:
Magazine - based on 5.45x39. Construction - like a late AEK-971 assault rifles.
...
One of the "Russian five-seven" - 5.45x22 7N47:
Also, worked at 5.45x26 cartridge.
...
Unknown Soviet double-barrel assault rifle:
Guns, what I know about:
27.154 - Borisov and Chugunov double-barrel assault rifle
AO-38 - also, double-barrel assault rifle, created by engineers V.S. Yakushchev, S.G. Simonov, V.V. Simonov, I.M. Berezkin, P.A. Tkachev. Cartridge - 5.45x39, 1966.
KBK-165 and KBK-166 - unknown multi-barrel assault rifle
...
Experimental extended magazine for Dragunov SVD (16 or 18-rd):
...
Modern 9x21 Russian cartridges, 7U4 (7У4, left down) - new subsonis, 7N42 (7Н42, right down) - new AP.
You can see, special AP core:
Plasma rifle? Komissar Shchyokin (Rus. Щёкин) knows the best weapon...
A hundred powerful burners create a "heat ray", distance of "ray" from 10 m to 50 km, temperature from 20 000 to 100 000 °C (36 000 - 180 000 °F). A ray throws through a water-cooled tube (with temperature no no more 100 °C or 212 °F). Stalin's battle sun... 13.11.1941.
Need a light variant for infantry
(one of Russian wunderwaffes from Warhammer40000)
About 6x49 rifle - I found this image on Russian forum, guns.ru, and, Max Popenker and Ruslan Chumak were in Kovrov, and, they haven't information about this gun. But, Ruslan Chumak told - modern Russian experiments with 6x49 based on Soviet cases, were produced but nit loaded.
About Stechkin experimental weapons
TKB-486 - concealed carry ultralightweight SMG, 1.3 kg (2.87 lbs), full lenght 612 mm (24"), 550 rpm, accuracy - on 25 m, all bullets in 0.5-m (~20") circle, 1955, ("I didn't know about "Uzi" smg" - Stechkin) pages №2-5
TKB-506A - triple-barrel cigar-case, for KGB, for silent cartridges, 1955, page №6
TKB-0116 - compact assault rifle in 5.45x39, 20-round special magazine (on photo) or standart AK-74/RPK-74 magazines, weight of empty 20-rd magazine 0.14 kg (0.31 lbs), weight of rifle without magazine 2 kg (4.41 lbs), page №8
Project "Abakan" (Rus. Абакан) - rifles in 5.45x39, dispersion of firing of latest variants 4-5 times smaller than AK-74, pages №9-11
Also, TKB-0116:
...
In 1960th worked at new cartridge, based on 9x18 PM cartridge. Bullet diameter 9.27 mm, case lenght 21 mm (modern Russian 9x21 - bullet diameter 9.02 mm) - for AP bullets. In 1964 tested this cartridges, also, started work at pistols for 9x21 (9.2x21).
...
Also, created 9x33 (9.2x33) cartridge - I haven't data about period of works, and, about weapon for this ammo. Also, based on 9x18 PM. Overall lenght ~39.7 mm (9x18 - 24.7 mm), bullet - like a 9x18, but, darker than standart 9.27 mm PM.
G6 7.62 mm experimental cartridge, 1938-41:
Other cartridge, also 7.62 mm:
U2 experimental rifle (sniper or light AT), 7.62 mm high velocity cartridge (G6 or other):
...
Data of high velocity cartridges:
7.62 mm:
G6 rimless - 950 mps
Rimless, from TKB-223 machine gun - 1250-1300 mps
Rimmed, from TKB-123 machine gun - 1400 mps (three variants of case - tupes A, B and V - Rus. А, Б, В (first letters from Russian alphabet))
Rimmed, other - 1450 mps
12.7 mm:
Rimless, from TKB-223 machine gun - 1200-1250 mps
Also, good images with N. N. Benardos bullets and shells (1880-1890th):
"Electric cannon", 1890 (yes, I know, it's a not a normal firearms):
"The advantages of an electric gun over a standard:
1. Shell throwing at increased speed without jarring
2. Shell throwing without thunder and smoke
3. Significant reduction in useless shell weight
4. Significant reduction in the cost of cannon production
5. Enormous ease of loading cannons and firing
6. Huge cannon weight reduction
7. Durability of cannon
8. Full safety against a blow up"
Other idea - create a distance-operated coastal battery with electric cannons, or, use in fortresses or on big ships.
Military inventions of N. N. Benardos (from the list of projects completed by 1897; total list contains 191 inventions):
- Self-propelled land mine
- Rapid-fire cannon
- Cavalry mine
- Electric cannon
- Cartridges for buck
- Cilindrical hollow bullets
- Anti-baloon shell
- Shell for electric cannon
- Steel bullets
- Steel buck for hunting guns
Information from this book:
"N. N. Benardos. Science-technical inventions and projects", Kiev, 1982
Some of those modern Russian patents remind us of stuff patented a century ago in Britain, France, Germany, USA, etc.: toggle-lock, tangential revolver, etc.
The Atchisson Assault Shotgun is an American prototype shotgun developed by Maxwell Atchisson. It was further developed into the AA-12 by Military Police Systems. The prototype was constructed from a variety of other firearms including parts from a M1918 BAR and furniture from an M16A1. The...
At 1869, engineer Zagoskin constructed a 8-barrel "lightweight" Gatling gun, in weight of standart .42 Berdan Gatling gun, but, used a special .60 cal cartridge. Weight of bullet 72.5 g (1119 gr), weight of propellant charge 17 g (262 gr). This gun tested at 1869-1871. Project closed due to cartridge problems - case blowouts, etc. Works at "lightweight" Gatling guns used by engineers Gorlov and Baranovskiy, to create a M1871 (Gatling-Gorlov) and M1873 (Gatling-Baranovskiy) machine guns.
In 1871, considered the idea about small-caliber "grenade cannon" - actually, 1.5 inch Gatling gun with exposive bullets - for use in Army. "Soldiers, splattered with the blood and brains of their friends, can be demoralized..." (from real documents). Suggest of use buck cartridge for short distance, 15 bullets in shot, rate of fire - from 40 to 60 rpm. Range for use of buck - 200 sazhen (one standart sazhen = 7 british foots, or 213.36 cm, 200 sazhen = 427 m), for grenades - 600-700 sazhen (1280-1493 m). I haven't data about create of special grenade cartridges for this gun, but, in Russian army used exposive bullets with powder, Pankratov M1854, and other bullets, two or more types, in 1860th. In Pankratov bullet use a nail with cut shaft and one pistol. Later, created Ushakov bullet, with two pistons and central core.
Pankratov bullets (unloaded):
Scheme of Ushakov bullet:
...
Bourgeous Dubinin at 1883 suggest a "buck gun", big 8-barrel shotgun, with fan-shaped firing, with 50 bullets in one cartridge, rate of fire - 1600 bullets per minute, or, 32 rpm.
Engineer Wilner at 1880 suggest a volley gun, with 2500 .42 cal Berdan barrels.
General V. L. Chebishev (Rus. Чебышев) at 1885 constructed unknown "lightweight" 6-barrel Gatling gun.
At 1898, after death of General E. K. Adasovskiy, his widow transferred a "rifle-mitraliese" (Original, Rus. "Ружьё-митральеза") to unknown museum.
Some of those modern Russian patents remind us of stuff patented a century ago in Britain, France, Germany, USA, etc.: toggle-lock, tangential revolver, etc.
I know.
Modern patent (conveyor loading system for tank gun):
And, 1914 project:
You can see - WW1 system - real project, adapted to primitive technology, modern patent - only concept. And, yes, project from 1914 - automatic gun turret with 12 inch guns, like a turret on T-14 tank. And, after THAT, someone continues to argue that the Russians, Americans, British, Germans stole automatic turrets for tanks from each other, at 1970-90th.
Over the past 100 years, nothing fundamentally new has been invented in technology. This applies not only to firearms, but also to aviation, and ships, and automobiles. Therefore, I am not surprised at the appearance of such "inventions".
From Aleksey Gorbilev (Rus. Алексей Горбылев), book about ninja weapons:
Sniping on 654.54 m:
I heard about huge 3 m rifled muskets for sniping, but, I haven't data about this.
Ninja with wooden mini-cannon:
(like a German panzeknacke 30 mm gun)
Weapons, created by Kunimoto Ikkansai (1779-1840):
- 20-rd airgun with range to 40 m (based on dutch airgun with range to 15 m)
- 60-rd airgun
- Long-range crossbow, with special copper alloy
Soviet weapons from 1930th:
Grohovskiy gun, for paratroopers, for shells or rockets:
Petropavlovskiy "rocket launcher", 82 mm:
And, from S. A. Buturlin book, "Shotgun", 1937 - "new A. G. Trofimov shotgun, in Tula", semi-auto, system - with "прямая подача" ("pryamaya podacha", maybe, "direct load"). "Обратная подача" ("obratnaya podacha", "reverse load") - it's a about classic shotguns with tube magazine under barrel, or many machine guns, with rimmed cartridges, Kalashnikov PK, Maxim M1910, etc. "Прямая подача" - about weapons with standart boxed mafazines - for example, AK rifles, AR-15 rifles - or about machine guns, with belt mechanism, like a MG-34 or MG-42. "Shotgun with direct load" - it was, maybe, a) boxed magazine, b) magazine in butt (like a Evans, Sharps, etc.). I can't found information about Trofimov and his shotgun.
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