Extraterrestrials: Hope or Threat

[Justo Miranda]

The Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Primates have been around for up to 85 million years. 'Modern humans' for 300,000 years. Radio has been a thing for around 130 years. Rocketry to reach space for 80 years. Only 4 satellites have escaped the heliosphere within the last decade or so. Within 300,000-2 million years they will pass nearby stars.

So if it takes roughly 4-5 billion years before a planet can send barely a handful of satellites to local stars it would seem rather fanciful that the galaxy would be littered with probes. And all four of ours will be functionally dead on arrival. We can barely detect a small asteroid between the earth and moon, a dormant probe could easily sail by an alien civilisation without any notice. Pioneer 10's flyby of HIP 117795 at a distance of 0.75 light years in 90,000 years time will be the closest flypast of the Voyagers or Pioneer 11 will make. I'm not confident we'd spot a Voyager probe passing that near to us.

Your reasoning is correct and means that if it is not possible to exceed the speed of light using advanced technologies, the universe may be teeming with intelligent life but we will never know. It will be as if they never existed. It also means that when the sun explodes it will be the end of our species. It also means that we must encourage our young students to stop worshipping Einstein's legacy and develop new physics that reverses the curse.

The Earth is 4.5 billion years old. Primates have been around for up to 85 million years. 'Modern humans' for 300,000 years. Radio has been a thing for around 130 years. Rocketry to reach space for 80 years. Only 4 satellites have escaped the heliosphere within the last decade or so. Within 300,000-2 million years they will pass nearby stars.

So if it takes roughly 4-5 billion years before a planet can send barely a handful of satellites to local stars it would seem rather fanciful that the galaxy would be littered with probes. And all four of ours will be functionally dead on arrival. We can barely detect a small asteroid between the earth and moon, a dormant probe could easily sail by an alien civilisation without any notice. Pioneer 10's flyby of HIP 117795 at a distance of 0.75 light years in 90,000 years time will be the closest flypast of the Voyagers or Pioneer 11 will make. I'm not confident we'd spot a Voyager probe passing that near to us.

You point out the incredible acceleration of technology in your post. What can you foresee humans achieving in the next 500? 1000? 100,000 years? Parts of the universe are billions of years older.

That said IMHO the universe exists for us to observe, we are it’s only observer. We observe therefore it exists.

Circular? Yup but whatcha going to do?

Our attitude toward the universe will depend on what kind of people our descendants will be. There is a type of men who prefer to observe attractive women thinking they are out of reach and others who at least try to start a conversation. In my youth I used to fail 96 percent of the time... but it was worth it.

 

[Nik]

Came late to this thread...

You don't have a 'literary fiction' section, so here's a link to my wry take on the 'ET: Where are they ??' question...

https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/u52oba

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/u52oba/of_filters_and_firewalls/

or https://www.deviantart.com/the-nik-files/gallery/

Tangential, protists seem to have found a way to go big without multicellularity: Multiple nuclei is a neat trick. Getting beyond that to sentience, then sapience is a different matter...

Also, the path to having multiple sub-cellular whatsits by co-opting neighbours seems to be recurring before our eyes...

Single-celled alga found to harbor seven genomes

An international team of oceanographers, parasitologists and biologists has found that the single-celled alga Cryptomonas gyropyrenoidosa harbors seven genomes in its one cell. In their study, reported in the journal Current Biology, the group explored how one cell could hold more than one set...

phys.org

 

[martinbayer]

Maybe ET has such a high standard of living that only idiots would want to come here...

That would explain crop circles: Alien graffiti

Maybe they're also the equivalent of "Scotty, beam me up - there's no intelligent life down here". Now let me just grab my towel before this place gets thoroughly paved over...

 

[zen]

It may not be easy to travel to our solar system for some reason unknown to our astronomers. Perhaps the structure of space-time prevents passage to their FTL ships. Perhaps the Oort cloud contains something that prevents them from passing through it. Maybe they want to come but they can't. Perhaps there are many civilizations in the Galaxy but we are the most advanced and the humility of political correctness prevents us from considering that possibility.

Or perhaps there's a big sign/warning on all interstellar maps and outside the Solar system that says some thing to the effect of "Avoid Earth - too many idiots live there"

Don't think they need a sign. More likely they hear us from decades out.

We're likely one those neighbourhoods you wind up the window, lock the doors and just don't stop driving no matter what.

 

[Justo Miranda]

It may not be easy to travel to our solar system for some reason unknown to our astronomers. Perhaps the structure of space-time prevents passage to their FTL ships. Perhaps the Oort cloud contains something that prevents them from passing through it. Maybe they want to come but they can't. Perhaps there are many civilizations in the Galaxy but we are the most advanced and the humility of political correctness prevents us from considering that possibility.

Or perhaps there's a big sign/warning on all interstellar maps and outside the Solar system that says some thing to the effect of "Avoid Earth - too many idiots live there"

Don't think they need a sign. More likely they hear us from decades out.

We're likely one those neighbourhoods you wind up the window, lock the doors and just don't stop driving no matter what.

People can be idiots and go on living because our species is so intelligent and has achieved such a degree of stability and well-being that even idiots have a protected life instead of being eliminated by nature as happens to animals that have little success. And if we are the only intelligent species in the galaxy we have a moral obligation to prevail and disperse among the stars to avoid being annihilated by the eternal enemy: nature.

 

[zen]

if we are the only intelligent species in the galaxy we have a moral obligation to prevail and disperse among the stars to avoid being annihilated by the eternal enemy: nature.

More than that.
If there is a way to endure beyond the end of the Universe then life, intelligent life is the only structure that could find a way.

 

[Arjen]

Beyond the end of the Universe - getting humanity through the next thousand years could be a challenge, never mind the billions of years until the gnaB giB.

 

[zen]

gnaB giB.

I rather like that !!! I think I'll use it

 

[Arjen]

Quoting Douglas Adams. It's what happens at The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Beyond the end of the Universe - getting humanity through the next thousand years could be a challenge, never mind the billions of years until the gnaB giB.

It will be easier than overcoming the tragedy of the Toba volcano that was about to extinguish us and the ice age that ended with the Neanderthals, now we have technology.

 

[martinbayer]

Beyond the end of the Universe - getting humanity through the next thousand years could be a challenge, never mind the billions of years until the gnaB giB.

It will be easier than overcoming the tragedy of the Toba volcano that was about to extinguish us and the ice age that ended with the Neanderthals, now we have technology.

That might exactly be the problem.

 

[Artie Bob]

I probably agree pretty much with Martin. I am a teacher and depending which data you choose to use, in my area, the leading causes of death in my students age group are: firearms, automobile accidents, suicide (including firearms and drugs), drug overdoses. Apparently or maybe obviously, technology is literally a two edged sword. The unintended and intended consequences of technology may not be the saving element of human species.
Artie Bob

 

[Justo Miranda]

I probably agree pretty much with Martin. I am a teacher and depending which data you choose to use, in my area, the leading causes of death in my students age group are: firearms, automobile accidents, suicide (including firearms and drugs), drug overdoses. Apparently or maybe obviously, technology is literally a two edged sword. The unintended and intended consequences of technology may not be the saving element of human species.
Artie Bob

A life expectancy of less than forty years, dying from a dental infection or fearing that wolves will eat our children with an infant mortality of 50 percent, is the other edge of the sword.

 

[publiusr]

If there is any physical ET contact—it will likely be in the form of a burned out husk of a probe passing through like Avi thought Ouamuamua was.

If I had to write a thriller, I’d say a classified Titan III was sent to to bring back the Teton event body…the Great Daylight Fireball was an aerobrake probe:

10 Times A Meteor Fell To Earth And Flew Back Into Space - Listverse

A meteor is the fireball that occurs when a space rock (called a meteoroid) burns during its entry into the Earth's atmosphere. For this reason, every

listverse.com

The story would be the shuttle orbiter was made just big enough to return it one piece…having nothing to do with HEXAGON.

The craft is still in Edwards.

No anti-gravity or FTL needed.

 

[Archibald]

I wanted to say that those Earth alien invaders from "A quiet place" did not learned two essential lessons when invading our home world.

Lesson number 1 Don't you mess with Emily Blunt, who got training with Tom Cruise in kicking their ugly asses (Edge Of Tomorrow)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZToAlXGkVA


Lesson number 2 Beware of Earth sounds: it has been proven they can made alien heads explode (Mars attacks, aaaaack aaack !)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEUOo0t_RHQ


But no, they did not listened.

End result... this.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTtxe4pWpfQ

 

[edwest4]

No verified reports of aliens. If they are sending probes to Earth, we can't stop them. They haven't disintegrated any cities.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Here's a UFO video for cats

https://www.conclusion.com.ar/corazon-animal/el-video-del-gato-que-persigue-la-luz/03/2017/

 

[1635yankee]

I wanted to say that those Earth alien invaders from "A quiet place" did not learned two essential lessons when invading our home world.

Lesson number 1 Don't you mess with Emily Blunt, who got training with Tom Cruise in kicking their ugly asses (Edge Of Tomorrow)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZToAlXGkVA


Lesson number 2 Beware of Earth sounds: it has been proven they can made alien heads explode (Mars attacks, aaaaack aaack !)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEUOo0t_RHQ


But no, they did not listened.

End result... this.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTtxe4pWpfQ

Oh, I don't worry about aliens. If they ever show up, they'll either be nice or exterminate us. I think it very unlikely they'd chose the third path, that of treating us like the aboriginal Tasmanians, the Taino, or the Herrero, in which case our ultimate choice is being at the wrong end of a genocide or abject surrender.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Chinese dragon made with drones

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/14dgjrq

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/14dgjrq/part_of_the_drone_show_at_the_dragon_boat/

 

[publiusr]

Stunning. That probably scared folks with low education...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Stunning. That probably scared folks with low education...

A mere decade ago that would have been inexplicable to most people in the most advanced societies.

 

[airman]

Why aliens must spend resources for contact us @milions light years from us ?

 

[Arjen]

Curiosity.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Amazon.es

 

[Hydroman]

I'm glad Star Trek Deep Space Nine did not use the Kardashians! With the Kardashians there is a real intelligence gap in the space-time continuum. To them a worm hole is something found in the backyard or E.T. is for Extra Testicle, aye, aye, aye, that's nut's!

 

[Orionblamblam]

Why aliens must spend resources for contact us @milions light years from us ?

Religion. If you look at history, religion has inspired a lot of people to spend vast resources and lots of lives to do things objectively not practical. "God told me to cross the gulf of space to bring you The Message" is not unlikely. "God told me to cross the gulf of space to cleanse the universe of any form of life that is not Just Like Me" is also not unlikely.

"Resources," whether that's stealing our water, eating our humans, breeding with our more attractive females, capturing slaves, selling us crates of self-sealing stembolts, or trading Arcturian dirty stories for the latest AI-generated Beatles album, is a reason that would be predicated on the math actually adding up: the profit to be made has got to at least seem like it's got a shot of exceeding the cost of the trip. But religion? When God tells you to spare no expense, away you go.

 

[Arjen]

Alternatively, the ETs have harnessed all the energy of one or more stars, have thus found their way to a post-scarcity society and are simply into interstellar exploration as a hobby.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Why aliens must spend resources for contact us @milions light years from us ?

Religion. If you look at history, religion has inspired a lot of people to spend vast resources and lots of lives to do things objectively not practical. "God told me to cross the gulf of space to bring you The Message" is not unlikely. "God told me to cross the gulf of space to cleanse the universe of any form of life that is not Just Like Me" is also not unlikely.

"Resources," whether that's stealing our water, eating our humans, breeding with our more attractive females, capturing slaves, selling us crates of self-sealing stembolts, or trading Arcturian dirty stories for the latest AI-generated Beatles album, is a reason that would be predicated on the math actually adding up: the profit to be made has got to at least seem like it's got a shot of exceeding the cost of the trip. But religion? When God tells you to spare no expense, away you go.

Religion serves to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Lightning, thunder, comets, eclipses, diseases, earthquakes, death... In my opinion an alien race with great knowledge should not be very religious, especially if they have achieved some form of immortality.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Alternatively, the ETs have harnessed all the energy of one or more stars, have thus found their way to a post-scarcity society and are simply into interstellar exploration as a hobby.

In my opinion our planet has three unusual things: a huge satellite, a huge variety of life forms and military radar emissions that can be captured from Saturn's orbit. In the world of flowers it would be a blue rose, in that of birds a white crow, if you collect rare flowers or photos of birds ... Where would you look? If intelligent life is a rarity in the universe, wouldn't it be interesting to study the physical conditions in which it occurs? And if ET is fond of games, wouldn't be interested in studying an intelligent race that has survived several extinctions? Maybe luck has a spiritual meaning for them. Ringworld Teela Brown??

We Live in the Rarest Type of Planetary System

New work suggests four distinct star system types—and finds our own in the rarest category

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[martinbayer]

Curiosity.

Boredom?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Religion serves to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Lightning, thunder, comets, eclipses, diseases, earthquakes, death...

Those gaps are largely already filled with actual knowledge, yet you will find people who still apply religion to them. Diseases are, after all God's Judgement or something.

In my opinion an alien race with great knowledge should not be very religious, especially if they have achieved some form of immortality.

That viewpoint depends on the aliens being rational in a way that seems rational to *you.* I'm currently watching France descend into the third circle of Hell and it's pretty clear that a whole lot of people don't rationalize the way that *I* do. Why should I expect me-level logic out of aliens?

 

[edwest4]

Religion serves to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Lightning, thunder, comets, eclipses, diseases, earthquakes, death...

Those gaps are largely already filled with actual knowledge, yet you will find people who still apply religion to them. Diseases are, after all God's Judgement or something.

In my opinion an alien race with great knowledge should not be very religious, especially if they have achieved some form of immortality.

That viewpoint depends on the aliens being rational in a way that seems rational to *you.* I'm currently watching France descend into the third circle of Hell and it's pretty clear that a whole lot of people don't rationalize the way that *I* do. Why should I expect me-level logic out of aliens?

What do you expect from the French? Hat drops and riots start.

Get a copy of Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Religion serves to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Lightning, thunder, comets, eclipses, diseases, earthquakes, death...

Those gaps are largely already filled with actual knowledge, yet you will find people who still apply religion to them. Diseases are, after all God's Judgement or something.

In my opinion an alien race with great knowledge should not be very religious, especially if they have achieved some form of immortality.

That viewpoint depends on the aliens being rational in a way that seems rational to *you.* I'm currently watching France descend into the third circle of Hell and it's pretty clear that a whole lot of people don't rationalize the way that *I* do. Why should I expect me-level logic out of aliens?

What do you expect from the French? Hat drops and riots start.

This ain't the French, though. It's *aliens* (see what I did there? keeping it on topic) causing the trouble. And it's not "riots" it's a jihad-inspired conquest. So... yeah, kinda relevant to the discussion. Entities from beyond who don't reason as you do, using strange alien religious beliefs to justify burning your world to the ground.

Get a copy of Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke.

Did so, decades ago. Read it sometime in the mid 80's, I believe. Not immediately certain of the relevance.

 

[edwest4]

Religion serves to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Lightning, thunder, comets, eclipses, diseases, earthquakes, death...

Those gaps are largely already filled with actual knowledge, yet you will find people who still apply religion to them. Diseases are, after all God's Judgement or something.

In my opinion an alien race with great knowledge should not be very religious, especially if they have achieved some form of immortality.

That viewpoint depends on the aliens being rational in a way that seems rational to *you.* I'm currently watching France descend into the third circle of Hell and it's pretty clear that a whole lot of people don't rationalize the way that *I* do. Why should I expect me-level logic out of aliens?

What do you expect from the French? Hat drops and riots start.

This ain't the French, though. It's *aliens* (see what I did there? keeping it on topic) causing the trouble. And it's not "riots" it's a jihad-inspired conquest. So... yeah, kinda relevant to the discussion. Entities from beyond who don't reason as you do, using strange alien religious beliefs to justify burning your world to the ground.

Get a copy of Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke.

Did so, decades ago. Read it sometime in the mid 80's, I believe. Not immediately certain of the relevance.

You don't remember how the aliens on Rama were described, and where they came from? The relevance is clear. Such aliens could survive radiation, large magnetic field disturbances and likely other things that would kill an average human.

I was 100% expecting more examples of bad police behavior combined with the current "systemic racism" virus. It works this way: Riot first, get an explanation later. Ignore the explanation. In the Leftist Utopia (TM) everything is perfect immediately. Failing that, since it does not correspond to actual, real reality, then this sort of thing will continue. I'm not here to defend or condemn either side, just pointing out how things actually work.

 

[Orionblamblam]

You don't remember how the aliens on Rama were described, and where they came from?

As I said, it's been about 40 years. I have no recollection of the Rama aliens religion being described.

I'm not here to defend or condemn either side...

One side is burning libraries, so fark 'em. Fire up the French chapter of the Space Marines, tell 'em that there are heretical Xenos about. (See? Still on-topic)

 

[edwest4]

You don't remember how the aliens on Rama were described, and where they came from?

As I said, it's been about 40 years. I have no recollection of the Rama aliens religion being described.

I'm not here to defend or condemn either side...

One side is burning libraries, so fark 'em. Fire up the French chapter of the Space Marines, tell 'em that there are heretical Xenos about. (See? Still on-topic)

There is a game company out there called Sorry We Are French. Maybe aliens decided to perform an experiment on the French and are watching it play out from the safety of their spaceships. One stay on topic point for me with that one.

And what is your problem with religion?

"Yes, your honor, he opened the door."

 

[Orionblamblam]

And what is your problem with religion?

Whether I have a problem with religion in general or specific religions in particular doesn't alter the fact that one of the basic tenets of *any* religion is "faith." And with faith... any and all insanity is possible. A person might not see the goofiness built into their own religion, but they can see it in all the others. And there's no reason on Gort's green Earth why aliens would not have religion, or why theirs might be any less bonkers than some humans have dreamed up.

 

[uk 75]

Turning the problem.on its head. We are now approaching the time when our telescopes in space might reveal an earthlike planet showing signs of intelligent life in a planetary system which we could send s probe to reach in several hundred years.

The US and Chinese governments meet to consider doing just that. What would you suggest they do and why?

 

[publiusr]

I would want something that would do an aerobrake like the Teton bolide.

“Just a meteor” they croak and howl.

 

[martinbayer]

Turning the problem.on its head. We are now approaching the time when our telescopes in space might reveal an earthlike planet showing signs of intelligent life in a planetary system which we could send s probe to reach in several hundred years.

The US and Chinese governments meet to consider doing just that. What would you suggest they do and why?

Just be nice for starters and adjust as needed. Do I really have to explain why?