Early european rocketry projects

[Archibald]

title says all.
It seems that Tony Buttler did it again!
Along the mythical Avro 732 "supersonic Vulcan" he mention a Vulcan with a Diamant rocket under wing. (I've seen a pic, but I won't post it here)

More info on the context and specs of this project ?
I've checked Diamant A/B/BP-4 at Capcom espace.

Diamant A = 18 metric tons
Diamant B = 24.5 metric tons

From the pic it can't be a Diamant BP-4 (which had Black Arrow large shroud).

I've also checked Vulcan specs, nominal weapon load was 10 metric tons but 20 tons was possible. Beyond that you'll need to start reducing the fuel load (35 metric tons, lots of margin!)

 

[Michel Van]

that a odd combination

the Diamand stage had to heavy modified for Vulcan

you know the Diamant Model or the year of this proposal ?

next to Diamant A/B/BP-4
was also unbuild Super Diamant (with P-10 Solid booster as first stage)

 

[PMN1]

Not exactly what you are looking for but along the same lines.

In Volume 59 Supplement 2, 2006 of BIS’s Space Chronicles – UK Spaceplanes

Based on studies of manned Blue Steel to do the same research as the X-15

The Vulcan Obiter Z 124

By October 1962 ambitions had increased to the extent of considering a brand new rocket vehicle completely different in principal from Blue Steel. The concept began with the recognition that the Vulcan, because of its delta wing, had very tall undercarriage. This would permit the installation of a large ballistic multi-stage rocket weighing up to 40,000lb (the drawing shows the missile hanging outside the bomb bay which appears to have had the doors removed). This would be carried and air launched much as was Blue Steel, from a height of about 50,000ft, but the trajectory would be more akin to that of the ballistic Skybolt as the orbiter was wing-less. It was calculated that this three-stage vehicle could place a 650lb payload into a low earth orbit. Although less design detailing was done on the orbiter than on the manned Blue Steel its potential was recognised. Here was a revolutionary way of placing application satellites (for communications, meteorology, survey, navigation etc) in orbit launched from a mobile platform. Two advantages sprang from this: firstly the Vulcan could fly to any base in Europe, collect its rocket and launch into a variety of orbital planes; secondly, with flight refuelling, the craft could be placed in an equatorial orbit. In this way Europe could have had its very own launching system, quite different from that of the USA, which was totally expendable.

This project was announced at a lecture and received a lot of publicity. Whether it was ever considered seriously by HMG is doubted but it could have given the RAF an opportunity to take a bold step, into spaceflight.

 

[Archibald]

No problem PMN-1, we can ask the mods renaming the topic into something like "Avro Vulcan - launched rockets"

The concepts sounds very interesting.
Btw someone at the whatif modelers board recently mentioned a Polaris - Vulcan combo...

 

[PMN1]

No problem PMN-1, we can ask the mods renaming the topic into something like "Avro Vulcan - launched rockets"

The concepts sounds very interesting.
Btw someone at the whatif modelers board recently mentioned a Polaris - Vulcan combo...

BSP Hypersonics has a Phase 6 Vulcan launching a Polaris on Page 104.

 

[PMN1]

Here is a piccie of the Z124 concept

 

[Michel Van]

Eurospace Aerospatiale Diamant A / Avro Vulcan B.2 installation, 1965

thanks for PDF ! its

that is a Diamant A rocket (used Turpentine and Nitric acid as Propellants !)

Nice Idea, but why it looks more like a "Good Alternative to Skybold..." ?

 

[Archibald]

1965 really marked the climax of anglo-french cooperative programs! Thank you very much.

Well, the Skybolt was single stage, weighed 4500 kg, and was a weapon cancelled in 1962. It more remind me of the Pegasus / Tristar combo...

 

[PMN1]

What kind of payload was expected from the Vulcan / Diamant combination?

 

[Archibald]

Here's an atempt...

From what I've seen Vulcan provided 30% more payload. According to this excellent website http://www.sat-net.com/serra/diaman_f.htm Diamant A was around 150 kg.

1/3 of 150 kg = 50 kg+

200 kg.
Interestingly this is Diamant BP-4 payload... 10 years later.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong in my calculations!!!!!

 

[Michel Van]

Here's an atempt... Diamant A was around 150 kg.

200 kg.
Interestingly this is Diamant BP-4 payload... 10 years later.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong in my calculations!!!!!

not quite
Diamant A used Turpentine and Nitric acid as Propellants
(because they work good in Veronique Sounding rocket, but low of ISP 220 sec)
Diamant B used UDMH and N2O4 as Propellants (Better ISP of 227 sec)

but launch of Diamant A from high altitude by Vulcan Bomber
save Fuel and give 30% more Payload

 

[Barrington Bond]

I cannot read German so here are a few diagrams from this article I have come across

Regards,
Barry

 

[Archibald]

Flight global, again

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1970/1970%20-%200791.html

Also on the Dornier stand is a model
of an advanced launch vehicle known as
ELGO/HORA (European 'Launcher for
Geostationary Orbit). This vehicle is derived
from the Europa 2 vehicle by substantial
modification and the addition of
strap-ons, and has a very distinctive
appearance. As its name implies, it will
be used to fly into geostationary orbit
payloads (communication, navigation, airtraffic
control, weather and Earth-resource
satellites) of substantially greater
size than can be lifted by the existing
ELDO vehicle. The adoption of the
building-block principle enables a flexible
layout to be achieved, in which the
vehicle can be sized to the task required'
of it.

 

[Barrington Bond]

LRT 16 (1970) No 4 April.

 

[Barrington Bond]

Same issue.

 

[Michel Van]

i was working on that topic for this forum ;D

million thanks for new Info

EUROPA III D a 5 engine version first stage, cool....

Picture
unknow EUROPA model with
2x french L17 stap on Booster (Aka Diamant B )
british Blue Streak first stage
second stage Lox/LH2 in "Hammerhead" configuration

 

[Archibald]

I think the mods could merge this thread with the Elgo one. And why not adding the "Diamant thread", too ?
Something like "early european rocketry projects"

 

[Antonio]

Topics merged at Archibald's suggestion

 

[Michel Van]

on the Title and labeling of the ELDO Rocket
from 1960 to 1968 : ELDO-A, ELDO-B (ELDO-C ?)
from 1968 to 1973 : EUROPA-1, EUROPA-2, EUROPA-3
NOTE: All ELDO-B became EUROPA-3. (EUROPA-2 is a Modified ELDO-A)

there were also early alternative version of ELDO-A
in case Corallie stage fails total

Blue Streak, Black Arrow, ASTRIS

jep First Stage of Black Arrow as Second stage in ELDO-A !
but payload is very low.
source http://www.spaceuk.org

more detail picture of ELDO-B augmented version
http://www.spaceuk.org/bstreak/eldo/augmented.html

in 1968 are ELDO proposals for high-energy third-stages of the ELDO vehicle
one french with a nuclear engine !
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1963/1963%20-%200922.pdf

 

[Michel Van]

i Found littel bit more Info

in 1970 were FIVE Proposal for EUROPA III

Europa IIIA Blue Streak with H14 - launch mass 110t
Europa IIIB French L120 with H25 - launch mass 160t
Europa IIIC L140 (4xRZ-13) with H17 - launch mass 175t
Europa IIID H50 with H17 - launch mass 78t
Europa IIIE Cluster

the IIIE design is very vague a 3 stage rocket from Cluster of fuel tanks
7 tanks in first stage 3 in second and Coralie as Third stage
is Europa IIIE identical with Supervulcain B ?

got some one info about this, Please !

in end Europa IIIB was the winner and later reborn as Ariane 1

source (in German)
http://www.bernd-leitenberger.de/europa.shtml

 

[Archibald]

Supervulcain B seems to have 8*Valois, each giving 35 tons of thrust.

8*Diamant = 2*Blue Streak = 1*Ariane = 280 tons of thrust and 5000 kg in LEO.
8*Valois = 4*RZ-2 = 4*Viking.

The cluster of 8*Valois was called Octavie, what was build in the form of mockup was Catherine, a cluster of 4*Valois. It seems that Supervulcain B would have used two catherine.

 

[Michel Van]

see here for some picture and data on Supervulcain B
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2975.msg24013.html#msg24013

but is Supervulcain B => EUROPA IIIE rocket proposal ???

that my question

 

[Michel Van]

i strike gold

new Europa rockets variants !

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%200506.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968%20-%200507.html

there from the "Advisory Committee on Programmes"
set up by the European Space Conference during its meeting in Rome in July 1967.

strangely they talk about "electric propulsion" for upperstage...

 

[Michel Van]

here rear picture from ELDO-B 1966 version B1 and B2
(B1) Blue Streak / H5.5
(B2) Blue Streak / H14 / H5.5
H for cryogenic fuelled stage. the numbers are Fuel mass in tons

Text
SEREB = la Société pour l'étude et la réalisation d'engins balistiques
ASAT = Arbeit Gemeinschaft Satelliten Tragersystem
HSD (i have no Idea wat that is.)

note that SEREB trust augmented version
use very Big Segmented solid-propellent booster like UA1205 (the Booster of Titan III C)
2 mø by 18 meter length

oh those french copy-cats :

 

[Antonio]

Lunar Space vessel 1942

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1942/1942%20-%200342.html

 

[Michel Van]

Lunar Space vessel 1942

the BIS Lunar project from 1937
one of first realistic proposal to get to moon and back !
next proposal was Von Braun from year 1952 !
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/bisander.htm

back to Europa IIIE

but is Supervulcain B => EUROPA IIIE rocket proposal

i found out that has nothing to do with Supervulcain B; But with ELGO !
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4130.msg37033.html#msg37033
thanks to Barrington Bond for info

 

[Michel Van]

i found this on http://www.capcomespace.net

in august 1973 ESRO had talks with McDonnell-Douglas
ESRO wanted to buy Delta 2314, 2914, 3914 rocket from MDD
including a Launchpad build in french Kourou spaceport!
this was to close the gap made by chanceling Europa-II and first launch of Ariane in 1978

in October 1973 had to be made a finale decisions on this
seems the decisions was NO
(Note: ESRO became 1975 ESA )

got Somme more info about this proposal and its end ?

 

[Archibald]

The perfect crime!

Introduce the Delta cukoo within Ariane future nest ;D and let Nature do the rest...
I think Delta would have filled the gap... until today. Ariane would never have existed!

 

[Michel Van]

The perfect crime!

Introduce the Delta cukoo within Ariane future nest ;D and let Nature do the rest...
I think Delta would have filled the gap... until today. Ariane would never have existed!

alsmost happent !
in the same time
French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing consider the Ariane program "To big for the french nation"
and try to shot down the program !

nice Wat if story
Ariane is Chanceld, but Delta deal also (ahh NON pas de Americans a Kourou ! Jamais !)
and ESA ends up with Diamants with LOX/Lh2 upper stages :

more on Europa space "in deep" History here
1958-1973 ESRO-ELDO 459 pages
http://www.esa.int/esapub/sp/sp1235/sp1235v1web.pdf
1973-1987 ESA 691 pages
http://www.esa.int/esapub/sp/sp1235/sp1235v2web.pdf


thanks to albyz85 from ForumAstronautico.it for the link

 

[Michel Van]

more info for Archibald

Germany had the idea to build Delta rocket under licence !

similar Japanese N-1 program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-I_(rocket)

there were studies by DLR or DFVLR
for Rocket launches from Ships or Seaplatform
if those were related to German Delta i don't know :-[

 

[Archibald]

The perfect crime!

Introduce the Delta cukoo within Ariane future nest ;D and let Nature do the rest...
I think Delta would have filled the gap... until today. Ariane would never have existed!

alsmost happent !
in the same time
French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing consider the Ariane program "To big for the french nation"
and try to shot down the program !

nice Wat if story
Ariane is Chanceld, but Delta deal also (ahh NON pas de Americans a Kourou ! Jamais !)
and ESA ends up with Diamants with LOX/Lh2 upper stages :

more on Europa space "in deep" History here
1958-1973 ESRO-ELDO 459 pages
http://www.esa.int/esapub/sp/sp1235/sp1235v1web.pdf
1973-1987 ESA 691 pages
http://www.esa.int/esapub/sp/sp1235/sp1235v2web.pdf


thanks to albyz85 from ForumAstronautico.it for the link

Giscard also killed the Mirage 4000 at the same date (around 1975)
He aparently had to cut budget at the time. A big chunk of french economy was fueled by Arab oil at the time... note that I'm not a fan of Giscard
(aside Thierry Le Luron hilarious imitations)

(ahh NON pas de Americans a Kourou ! Jamais !)

De Gaulle would have twisted in its grave so quickly that we could use it as a dynamo to produce electricity for cheap, no need for massive investment in nuclear energy.
Nice whatif story, as you said...

 

[Archibald]

More food for thought... look at the "cancelled" and "conceptual studies" columns.
http://www.orbireport.com/Launchers/Europe.html

Ariane 48LP should be something like four solids PLUS four Viking pods.
An hybrid bewteen Ariane 44P and 44L !

A two stage Ariane 4 ? man, that's interesting.

 

[Michel Van]

i reading on Europa space "in deep" History here
1958-1973 ESRO-ELDO 459 pages
http://www.esa.int/esapub/sp/sp1235/sp1235v1web.pdf
1973-1987 ESA 691 pages
http://www.esa.int/esapub/sp/sp1235/sp1235v2web.pdf


found interesting news thinks

ELDO-C
is another name for ELDO-B2 (with 2 stage LOX/LH2 )
up to 7000 kg in low orbit

Europa IV
had to planed 3-4 years after Europa III (around 1978)
for payloads of 2 tons into GEO

another new find
it seem that the french VULCAIN proposal from LRBA was also EUROPA-1 alternative
in 1969 UK Labour minister Wedgwood Benn wanted to kill Blue Streak and ELDO

there was the L.95 Proposal by French Nord Aviation, LRBA, SEREB and Germand Bölkow
Nord Aviation proposed as alternative to L95 stage, a cluster of seven L17 (Diamant B) for first stage of Europa rocket
and LRBA propose VULCAIN
first stage, cluster of four L17, second Coralie, third stage P4 Solid fuel
(in the time the German third stage Astris on Europa-1 show during testflight serious malfunction )

so by Kenneth W. Garland in Flight International 16 may 1968

 

[Barrington Bond]

 

[Michel Van]

YEEESSSSSSSS
at last EUROPA IV


thanks Barrington
wat source ?

 

[starviking]

YEEESSSSSSSS
at last EUROPA IV

Seconded!

The Double-Decker bus really puts the IV in perspective. (Heh!)

Are we talking Titan III capabilities here?

As for the source, the Hawker-Siddeley logo on the picture suggests a company pic, but I dunno about what the publication is.

 

[Michel Van]

Seconded!

The Double-Decker bus really puts the IV in perspective. (Heh!)

Are we talking Titan III capabilities here?

As for the source, the Hawker-Siddeley logo on the picture suggests a company pic, but I dunno about what the publication is.

Yes, its 2 Blue Streak how launch the third Blue Streak and Lox/Lh2 Stage up and there the engine Ignites

is that not obvious that this IS a Hawker-Siddeley design, it use Blue Streak ;D

and for my part The Double-Decker bus must be the Standard scale for all British Ships, Aircrafts and Rockets drawings ;D

 

[Spark]

Seconded!

The Double-Decker bus really puts the IV in perspective. (Heh!)

Are we talking Titan III capabilities here?

As for the source, the Hawker-Siddeley logo on the picture suggests a company pic, but I dunno about what the publication is.

Yes, its 2 Blue Streak how launch the third Blue Streak and Lox/Lh2 Stage up and there the engine Ignites

is that not obvious that this IS a Hawker-Siddeley design, it use Blue Streak ;D

and for my part The Double-Decker bus must be the Standard scale for all British Ships, Aircrafts and Rockets drawings ;D

Are we talking Titan III capabilities here? Yes, the Europa Version shown was proposed with 2,200kg to GSO, but RR already had a much more powerful RZ12 . A variant with a fourth stage and proven UK technology could have been about Three times better than Titan 3 to GSO at the time

 

[Barrington Bond]

Astronautics & Aeronautics - sorry but I didn't write down the year...

Regards,
Barry

 

[Spark]

Astronautics & Aeronautics - sorry but I didn't write down the year...

Regards,
Barry

Sorry pardon, the 2,200 kg to GSO was for a Triple Blue Streak with LH/LOX upper stages. Not the one shown.

Barry was the year of the illustration circa 1967~68?