Early european rocketry projects

[Archibald]

Cryorocket was quite an ambitious company. In fact it was a G.I.E, just like Airbus, and it was not dissolved until 1984.
The G.I.E (Groupement d’Intérêt Economique) economic model was something airbus borrowed from Toulouse wine makers. It was deliberately made arduous, if impossible, to dissolve, in order to avoid infighting between share holders. Airbus founders picked that model deliberately, considering how difficult it was to get European countries working together.

What's more ? Varied interesting studies.
- HM4
- HM20 big Europa IIIB engine
And also
- advanced LH2 engines for the Space Tug (the original one)
- LH2 OS / RCS for the space shuttle orbiter - the one with internal tankage and plenty of volume. External tank orbiter got storable OMS / RCS instead.
- in fact the Space Tug advanced LH2 engine was to be the orbiter OMS, too !
- so ESA and cryorocket might have very well get a contract for the orbiter OMS.
I did knew that Buran was to get H2O2/ kerosene RCS / OMS. But not that the U.S orbiter was supposed to run on LOX/LH2.

I've read General Aubinière and Jean Pierre Causse oral histories. Tom Paine "Integrated Program Plan" of 1969 really impressed the Europeans. They really badly wanted to be part of it.
and then... the Space Shuttle happened instead.

 

[Michel Van]

oh yes, early Space Shuttle studies had RCS with LOX/LH2 propellant, they even consider the RL-10 for final orbital injection of Orbiter

french HM20 is German "HDTW" by MBB,
what stand acronym BORD for ?

 

[Michel Van]

Found a New Version of Europa Rocket !

Europa III ME
A 1971 (germans?) proposal for a Europa II with two shortened Europa III first stages serving as boosters.

source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185215026531065863

 

[Michel Van]

Another good picture of Hammer head Europa II-TA in at National Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh

The Side Booster look like french L-17 Diamant booster.
but that second stage could that be second stage of Europa III ?

 

[Archibald]

Still looking for information on "Ariane 4 lite" the 2000 alternative to Soyuz-in-Kourou.

More generally, I wonder if there ever were studies of Ariane 1, 2, 3 4 without the H8 / H10 LH2 stage 3. Either "two stage Ariane" or "Ariane with a different stage 3 - storable props".

 

[Archibald]

A question is passing... Never quite realized before there were so many Ariel satellites, six of them. And none launched on Black Arrow (facepalm).

WTF were Ariel satellites NOT launched by Black Arrow rockets ? And they cancelled it saying "it has no payloads." As we say in French... "Qui veut noyer son chien, l'accuse d'avoir la rage" (who wants to drown a dog, says "it has rabbies")

 

[Archibald]

Found a gem on Google books. A 1977 Congressional report detailing every single Diamant and every single Europa proposals over the previous 15 years.

I managed to link it

 

[Michel Van]

That PDF is a Gold Mine

This Europa III ME was German low cost proposal for Europa III B

 

[Michel Van]

Another interesting fact about Europa IIID in 1977 Congressional report
The all Hydrolox Rocket proposal from Germany

They proposed Two version the IID and IIID
the Europa IID would have be size and payload of Europa II
First stage 2 engines and Second stage 1 engine (Astrid as third stage ???)
The Europa IID would serve as Technology Demonstrator and testbed for IIID and later serve as medium payload launcher

 

[Grey Havoc]

WTF were Ariel satellites NOT launched by Black Arrow rockets ?

Well, the Airel program (also known as the UK series) had begun before the BLACK ARROW program (1959 vs 1964) and had been intended from the start to be primarily launched on the US Scout rocket. Ironically though, Scout wasn't ready in time for Airel 1 so it had to be launched on the much more expensive Thor-Delta, though fortunately the United States ate the cost overrun there. A very good case could be made for having Airel 4 onwards being carried by Black Arrows, however the MOD thought that the Scout would be less expensive and canned the Black Arrow despite its success. This turned out to be a poor call indeed, though to be fair they couldn't have predicted the unholy mess that the international monetary system would be in post the 'Nixon Shock' in 1971.

EDIT: Though I've just realised that the final flight of the Black Arrow was in October of 1971, after Nixon had set that dire fiasco in motion!

 

[Grey Havoc]

With regards as to ELDO, here's a link to an interesting ESA History Study Report from January of 1994, titled 'Reflections on Europe in Space'.

 

[Michel Van]

Found this interesting picture at Capcom Espace

Europa 1969 à 1971

 

[Michel Van]

What i find interesting in 1969 study is plan
To use new first stage B/C/D with Upper stages of Europa II rocket.
I like the Europa IIB it's has Ariane Rocket vibe
Let say the shape of thing to come

 

[Archibald]

Except Europa II upper stages were piece of junk: Coralie and Astris had vibration and electrical problems, plus they never learned to work together properly...

One French engineer present at the November 5, 1971 failure in Kourou later said in a book "I was in charge of monitoring electrostatic discharges in the fairing and I saw the tension mounting over and over, and there was nothing I could do to stop it... and then it wrecked the guidance computer and the rocket went astray and broke up." He added the lesson had not been forgotten for Ariane.

Europa II was flawed at many levels...

 

[Michel Van]

Someone at Twitter called @DutchSpace

Uploaded the user manual of Europa I & II rocket

Europa 1 and 2 Customers' Manual : ELDO/ESA : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Europa I and II Customers' ManualAL 0 (Amendment List 0, or Issue 0)

archive.org

and the Ariane 5 user manual issue3.rev0

Ariane 5 Users Manual Issue 3 Rev 0 : Arianespace : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Ariane 5 User's ManualIssue 3 Rev 0

archive.org

 

[Archibald]

"Great Scott !" Data on Europa I / II is quite hard to find, since it is a long forgotten ugly duck. This is very welcome.

 

[Hobbes]

The one page in the Europa 1/2 manual I'd have really liked to see (the dimensioned drawing) has been scanned while folded up (facepalm)...

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/darwin-launch-site-in-australia.14520/

 

[TheKutKu]

Found a New Version of Europa Rocket !

Europa III ME
A 1971 (germans?) proposal for a Europa II with two shortened Europa III first stages serving as boosters.

source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1185215026531065863

"Europa III ME; Design of an economical launcher"
An interesting complementary document!

Also:

Interesting note of potential Ariane 1 upgrade from Ruimtevaart, August 1978.
The S1 is named L145, which isn't a change but I had never seen it called as anything else than L140
And interestingly: 157 kN solid boosters; instead of the 680kN of our PAP; hard to tell what their size would be without knowing the burn time, they would likely be longer burning than our PAP (30 seconds) since they already fell dangerously close to the launch pad, and it would be a worse problem with a lower lift off TWR.
Are 157 kN boosters taken from some cancelled Europa version?

 

[martinbayer]

I love the MAN brochure! Before moving to the USA, I worked for about a year in the Neue Technologie launch vehicle studies department in Karlsfeld on an internal cryogenic upper stage concept for Ariane V as well as (mainly) the ESA FESTIP study. For a company of their size, Neue Technologie was in my view punching way above their weight (and I am not one to use sports metaphors lightly).

 

[Archibald]

An Ariane Europa hybrid ? Wth. Should have called it Euriane. Or Aripa lol. Ah, ris pas !

I see 4×Valois: they are Diamant BP4 press-fed 35 tons thrust engines, four of them would be 140 tons thrust; with storable props.

 

[Archibald]

@TheKutKu
you seem to have found a zoo of (baroques) Ariane Europa Diamant hybrids. Never heard about such hybrids before.

 

[Michel Van]

Looking into PDF
MAN 1972 proposal is low cost & risk approach Europa III that had use Hydrolox HDTW engine

They simply use two L110 first stage Europa III with Viking II engine als booster
modified L110 with two Viking II for Vacuum use and stretch Europa II Coralie
they could increase the payload with four L110 booster and replace Coralie with H20 stage

MAN even make wind tunnel test of Europa III ME

 

[TheKutKu]

The H20 would truly have been an innovative and efficient engine for the time, one that could still be relevant today. Shame it was dropped in favour of the HM7/H8 with L3S/Ariane.




fun fact: Cryorocket studied Nuclear Thermal rocket engines!



I wonder what LTP-95 and Obelix were, I recognise the first three, not the last two. Any ideas? I can find a single reference to LRBA's Obelix on some description of the 1971 Paris air show, but nothing more.

 

[cardonet]

The H20 would truly have been an innovative and efficient engine for the time, one that could still be relevant today. Shame it was dropped in favour of the HM7/H8 with L3S/Ariane.

View attachment 696107
View attachment 696108
View attachment 696111
fun fact: Cryorocket studied Nuclear Thermal rocket engines!

View attachment 696110

I wonder what LTP-95 and Obelix were, I recognise the first three, not the last two. Any ideas? I can find a single reference to LRBA's Obelix on some description of the 1971 Paris air show, but nothing more.

The LTP95 stage is the ancestor of the first stage of Ariane. It was to measure 3 m in diameter and carry 95 t of propellents. It was to be powered by four turbopump fed M-40s (hence the name of LTP).

Obelix was to be a three-stage launcher with a first stage of 2 m diameter (to reuse Coralie’s tools and tank bottoms) carrying 33 tons of storable propellents and using one 55 t thrust Viking. The upper stages were the P16 of the MSBS-M2 missile and the P1.8 developed as part of the Hyper-Diamant program.

 

[Michel Van]

The H20 would truly have been an innovative and efficient engine for the time, one that could still be relevant today. Shame it was dropped in favour of the HM7/H8 with L3S/Ariane.

The problem was H20 also known as Hoch Druck Triebwerk (HDTW)
This MBB develop engine was far a head of it Time and to radical
The the Turbopump assembly use a pre burner, who is the Combustion chamber !, follow by afterburner.

The EU Minister were uneasy with this radical engine, despite it work good during test burn
and went for simpler and cheaper HM7 by SEP

Source Picture: http://www.capcomespace.net

 

[TheKutKu]

The H20 would truly have been an innovative and efficient engine for the time, one that could still be relevant today. Shame it was dropped in favour of the HM7/H8 with L3S/Ariane.

View attachment 696107
View attachment 696108
View attachment 696111
fun fact: Cryorocket studied Nuclear Thermal rocket engines!

View attachment 696110

I wonder what LTP-95 and Obelix were, I recognise the first three, not the last two. Any ideas? I can find a single reference to LRBA's Obelix on some description of the 1971 Paris air show, but nothing more.

The LTP95 stage is the ancestor of the first stage of Ariane. It was to measure 3 m in diameter and carry 95 t of propellents. It was to be powered by four turbopump fed M-40s (hence the name of LTP).

Obelix was to be a three-stage launcher with a first stage of 2 m diameter (to reuse Coralie’s tools and tank bottoms) carrying 33 tons of storable propellents and using one 55 t thrust Viking. The upper stages were the P16 of the MSBS-M2 missile and the P1.8 developed as part of the Hyper-Diamant program.

Thanks a lot! I wonder where there is documentation about that.

So LTP95 is the Proto-Drakkar uh.
I imagine you meant the M1/M2's P10 (904) ; P16 (902) was for the S2/S3 missile, and this launcher would have a pretty abysmal TWR with a 55 tons thrust engine for a 33+16+1.8+structure tons rocket. Although I've also just seen some user on forumconquetespatiale mention that it was a Rita II/P6.. curious; may be various versions; it says that eventually it was found that L3S/Ariane could do the job.
Cora's big brother, this would have been great.

The H20 would truly have been an innovative and efficient engine for the time, one that could still be relevant today. Shame it was dropped in favour of the HM7/H8 with L3S/Ariane.

The problem was H20 also known as Hoch Druck Triebwerk (HDTW)
This MBB develop engine was far a head of it Time and to radical
The the Turbopump assembly use a pre burner, who is the Combustion chamber !, follow by afterburner.

The EU Minister were uneasy with this radical engine, despite it work good during test burn
and went for simpler and cheaper HM7 by SEP

Source Picture: http://www.capcomespace.net

It also sounds like a German/French; MBB/SEP conflict.
Some of the pressure were certainly high, one of the test closed cycle engines of BORD project this was derived from reached 286 bars! I'm not sure this was surpassed by any non-glushko engine at the time.

 

[Michel Van]

It also sounds like a German/French; MBB/SEP conflict.
Some of the pressure were certainly high, one of the test closed cycle engines of BORD project this was derived from reached 286 bars! I'm not sure this was surpassed by any non-glushko engine at the time.

So far what i figure out

HDTW started in end 1950s as Lox/Kerosine engine for Luftwaffen Interceptor (for Saunders-Roe SR.53 ???)
After end of Interceptor program, MBB modified it to HydroLox and tested successful during 1960s.
In 1970s with chaos in ELDO program provoke by Britain, they look into alternative what became Europa III proposals.
Two of them used HDTW the Europa IIIB and IIID, last one use it in first and second stage.
Other contender A/C used Blue Streak hardware and were not selected like D and modular E proposal.
Europa IIIB was selected because the First stage was french build, but the engine made issue.

HDTW was consider too radical by European minister who decide in place of ELDO Management.
A compromise was made that MBB and SEP build variant of HDTW called H20 engine,
(in mean time NASA scared the hell out Rocketdyne with Patent on HDTW for Shuttle Main engine)
1972 there low cost proposal were Europa III use two smaller french hydrolox engine HM6 or HM7.
Also came Alternative German MAN Europa III ME that not use H20 in begin, and CNES Lanceur de 3e génération de substitution.

Now after 11 failed launch of Europa rocket ended this Programm in 1974.
Out ashes came Phoenix: Lanceur de 3e génération de substitution
it use similar approach as Europa III ME, it use first stage of Europa III and same hardware for second stage,
and third stage with simple hydrolox engine the HM7
This became Ariane 1

What happen to H20 and HDTW after this is unknown to me.
Rocketdyne took some Design feature from it for RS-25 engines.

 

[Michel Van]

I wonder what LTP-95 and Obelix were, I recognise the first three, not the last two. Any ideas? I can find a single reference to LRBA's Obelix on some description of the 1971 Paris air show, but nothing more.

Check this about French launcher proposal

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-space-rocket-question.2975/

 

[Archibald]

Lanceur de 3e génération de substitution

L3S - yes. Handpicked Europa IIIB 4*Vikings stage 1 but swapped 1*H-20 stage 2 with: 1*Viking + 1*HM-7. That is two stages, easier, lower risk.

 

[martinbayer]

The H20 would truly have been an innovative and efficient engine for the time, one that could still be relevant today. Shame it was dropped in favour of the HM7/H8 with L3S/Ariane.

The problem was H20 also known as Hoch Druck Triebwerk (HDTW)
This MBB develop engine was far a head of it Time and to radical
The the Turbopump assembly use a pre burner, who is the Combustion chamber !, follow by afterburner.

The EU Minister were uneasy with this radical engine, despite it work good during test burn
and went for simpler and cheaper HM7 by SEP

Source Picture: http://www.capcomespace.net

I distinctly remember rumors in the German aerospace industry at the time of the HDTW *strongly inspiring* the SSME design, but I'm not enough of a pure rocket engine (as opposed to overall launch systems) man myself to call it either way.

 

[Michel Van]

I distinctly remember rumors in the German aerospace industry at the time of the HDTW *strongly inspiring* the SSME design

They use design elements like copper in Combustion chamber for better heat transfer
How they cool the engine nozzle and i think also elements of pre burner were taken from HDTW

 

[cardonet]

So LTP95 is the Proto-Drakkar uh.
I imagine you meant the M1/M2's P10 (904) ; P16 (902) was for the S2/S3 missile, and this launcher would have a pretty abysmal TWR with a 55 tons thrust engine for a 33+16+1.8+structure tons rocket. Although I've also just seen some user on forumconquetespatiale mention that it was a Rita II/P6.. curious; may be various versions; it says that eventually it was found that L3S/Ariane could do the job.
Cora's big brother, this would have been great.

Sorry. I wrote too fast. I meant "The upper stages were the P6 of the MSBS-M2 missile and ..." And indeed, it is the Rita II.

 

[TheKutKu]

LIIIS Artwork and models
I think these are all the H8 version of the LIIIS

I am bummed out... my local library had an issue of the wonderful "La Construction D'une Politique Spatiale En France" but it got leased for several months before I could finish reading it...

Edit: well I bought a copy

 

[Michel Van]

I think these are all the H8 version of the LIIIS

yes, that H8 stage in Original LIIIS design that Stage is inside a Aerodynamic Cover
To match second stage with payload faring, because the Third stage was smaller diameter and power by HM4 engine

 

[TheKutKu]

Cutaway drawing of the Anglo-French ELDO proposal of early 1961 from FLIGHT, August 17 1961

 

[Michel Van]

Cutaway drawing of the Anglo-French ELDO proposal of early 1961 from FLIGHT, August 17 1961

that third stage must be the hydrogen peroxide/kerosine fuel.

 

[Archibald]

Cutaway drawing of the Anglo-French ELDO proposal of early 1961 from FLIGHT, August 17 1961

that third stage must be the hydrogen peroxide/kerosine fuel.

Yep, kind of Black Arrow standing on Blue Streak shoulders. Which make sense as a 100% british proposal - this was before De Gaulle stepped in, and then the Germans and Europe. Except their Coralie and Astris upper stages were crap... while Black Arrow worked like a charm.

 

[Michel Van]

Except their Coralie and Astris upper stages were crap...

The french teste Coralie what show issue with Electronics
but declare operational put on Blue Streak and failed

The German Astris had manufacture mistake, like non isolated electronics.
during first flights each time the pryotech separate the third stage
the fumes reach non isolated electronics and made a short-circuit in Flight Termination system...

Also was way ELDO assemble the Europa Rocket what extrem contra productive
first came the British and erect the Blue Streak connect to launch pad and Leave
then came the french put Coralie on Blue Streak connect it to rocket and Pad and Leave
Follow by Germans who install Astris on top connect it to rocket and Pad and Leave
Finally came the Italian put payload and fairing and leave

There were NOT interaction between ground crews, everyone dit his thing
I don't know if also count for Launch Crew, i afraid there deal with there Stage only...

 

[TheKutKu]

Except their Coralie and Astris upper stages were crap...

I don't know if also count for Launch Crew, i afraid there deal with there Stage only...

From what I’ve read yes they were also separate For each stage and in their own languages, working one after the other, although they were all in the same control Center room