Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

[Archibald]

and frankly offers certain benefits that even f-35 does not offer

Such as?

If you’re Egypt, the ability to bomb Libya, Yemen, Israel etc without US pre-approval. Plus some weapons that the US may not be willing to sell.

As a matter of fact, with the notable exception (mercifully !) of ASMP-A nuclear cruise missile - everything is indeed on the table, for arming Rafales. Even SCALP conventional cruise missiles; AASM powered / glide bombs; and a ton of other A2G stuff.
Has Meteor AAM been cleared for export ? Can't remember if anybody outside Europe has them (my bet is on Middle east nation...)

 

[TMA1]

and frankly offers certain benefits that even f-35 does not offer

Such as?

It can actually supercruise with a light A2A readout. Has better kinematics. Probably easier to maintain and I'm assuming slightly less expensive to maintain as well. It also seems that the french dont connect as many geopolitical strings to their mil products as our fighters have.

I'd say for a country like the UK, the f-35b was the best choice by far (frankly the only choice) and has excellent capabilities. For a nation like Egypt or India though the rafale would certainly be better even if they had the chance to by the f-35.

 

[eagle]

- F-16 is done (at least !)

How so?
In 2022 the first Vipers will leave the new assembly line, 128 on order currently.

So Rafale is cheaper by a hair.

In Switzerland, F-35 beat Rafale, EF and F-18E/F on costs, both procurement and operating. 36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.

 

[H_K]

36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.

That’s entirely due to an accounting trick. The F-35 operating costs were estimated based on flying 20% fewer hours than the competitors. If you fly 20% less, it’s not that hard to come in 10% lower than the competition.

But on a per flying hour basis the F-35 is actually ~10% more expensive…

… and even that includes a lot of uncertainty and likely optimistic assumptions about the F-35’s future maintenance costs as airframes age… whereas the competitors’ long-term cost-to-own is much more certain because the oldest aircraft have already flown thousands of hours and gone through long-term maintenance intervals.

 

[TomcatViP]

I see those 20% as very conservative: having capabilities that other don't have, you'll inherently fly less mission to achieve the same objectives.

Also, the Swiss F-35 deal includes first years of maintenance.
Stating that the Rafale is cheaper is completely illogical when we all know the FMS price. There is nothing known so far that can beat that unless you allegedly buy Chinese or Russian.

Egypt is also completing its fleet. This is not a new service introduction. Cost should be trimmed to the minimum. And that's what grants an interesting comparison.

 

[Archibald]

Oh drats, will the F-16 ever die ? 128 orders ? it must be close from 5000 airframes and the Phantom own record there...

F-16V, l’autre atout export de Washington

À toute chose malheur est bon. Le F-35 de Lockheed Martin accusant retards et surcoûts, l’avionneur américain a pris soin de moderniser une nouvelle fois s

www.areion24.news

Hell yes indeed, that aircraft will never die.

 

[Orido]

Egypt is also completing its fleet. This is not a new service introduction. Cost should be trimmed to the minimum. And that's what grants an interesting comparison.

You don't know what's included.
It's not comparing apples to apples.

In 2017, Qatar ordered 12 Rafale for € 1.1 billion = 91 Millions each.

Qatar, France Sign $1 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal Amid Gulf Crisis

Qatar announced Thursday a deal to buy 12 French-built Rafale fighter jets, as it faces a boycott by neighbouring Gulf states in the region's worst political crisis in years.

www.ndtv.com

 

[GTX]

It can actually supercruise with a light A2A readout. Has better kinematics. Probably easier to maintain and I'm assuming slightly less expensive to maintain as well. It also seems that the french dont connect as many geopolitical strings to their mil products as our fighters have.

I'd say for a country like the UK, the f-35b was the best choice by far (frankly the only choice) and has excellent capabilities. For a nation like Egypt or India though the rafale would certainly be better even if they had the chance to by the f-35.

Lot's of personal subjective assumptions there - any facts?

 

[H_K]

I see those 20% as very conservative: having capabilities that other don't have, you'll inherently fly less mission to achieve the same objectives.

I agree with you that may be true for some wartime operational missions. Though there are also exceptions… e.g. if you’re flying a CAP or CAS loiter for X hours a day, there’s no way to compress that.

And since 99% of flying will be peacetime (especially for Switzerland) the question is can the F-35 fly fewer training hours than its competitors? Since advanced training technology and networked simulators are widely available these days, that’s sounds more like Lockheed Martin’s marketing promises than based on any real world facts.

 

[eagle]

36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.

That’s entirely due to an accounting trick. The F-35 operating costs were estimated based on flying 20% fewer hours than the competitors. If you fly 20% less, it’s not that hard to come in 10% lower than the competition.

But on a per flying hour basis the F-35 is actually ~10% more expensive…

… and even that includes a lot of uncertainty and likely optimistic assumptions about the F-35’s future maintenance costs as airframes age… whereas the competitors’ long-term cost-to-own is much more certain because the oldest aircraft have already flown thousands of hours and gone through long-term maintenance intervals.

The fewer hours are entirely training hours. Operational hours are the same. So in the end, the F-35 is cheaper to operate, simple.
Whether or not actual cost per flying hour is 10 % more expensive is unknown.

This also doesn't adress the fact that the F-35 is cheaper to buy.

 

[Deltafan]

So Rafale is cheaper by a hair.

In Switzerland, F-35 beat Rafale, EF and F-18E/F on costs, both procurement and operating. 36 F-35 are 2 billion CHF cheaper to buy and operate over a 30 year period compared to the 2nd cheapest option.

Swiss MPs to Probe Decision to Buy F-35 Fighters

A Swiss parliamentary committee will probe the government's decision to purchase 36 Lockheed Martin F-35A fighter jets.

www.thedefensepost.com

 

[TomcatViP]

And 12 more (or is that 12 less?!) : Croatia confirms it agreed with the session of 12 "ex" FrAF Rafale F3R

La Croatie confirme l'achat de 12 Rafale d'occasion

Le Premier ministre croate, Andrej Plenkovic, et le président français, Emmanuel Macron, ont signé ce jeudi un partenariat stratégique qui englobe cette commande.

www.bfmtv.com

 

[GTX]

12 rehashed...

 

[Deltafan]

“The 12 planes that are sold to Croatia are F3-R standard [...] Deliveries will be made in 2 lots of 6 planes. The 1st batch will start to be delivered in the 2nd half of 2023. So precisely one Rafale aircraft will be sold each month between September 2023 and February 2024. The 2nd batch will be from the end of the year 2024. We will start deliveries in November 2024 and we will finish them in April 2025 [...] The Minister of the Armies Florence Parly has decided to proceed with the replacement of these second-hand planes by new planes and therefore when the supply contract for the 5th phase will be concluded in 2023. gust planes, will be taken into account the replacement of 12 sold planes. Deliveries will begin from 2027. Very concretely, 30 planes were planned to be ordered within the framework of this 5th tranche and henceforth, following the decision of the Minister of the Armed Forces, it will not be 30 but it will be 42 planes which will be ordered from industrial Dassault ”.

8'05" --> 11'25"

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERY1kXiG-No&list=PLtOyR1zqP2v5pwx3KZ569rHMMkhrW0FVJ

To be confirmed, as there will be at least two elections (2022 and 2027) in this time interval.

 

[Deltafan]

To be confirmed, or not (the umpteenth time since 2008 of false hopes and false rumors taken up by the media for this Rafale-UAE case ?), today...

Cementing ties with France, UAE places $19 bln order for warplanes, helicopters

The United Arab Emirates ordered 80 Rafale fighter jets and 12 military helicopters on Friday, deepening economic and political ties with France through an arms contract worth 17 billion euros ($19.20 billion).

www.reuters.com

 

[TomcatViP]

Inked!
80 Rafale for the UAE:

Les premiers Rafale seront livrés à partir de 2027 et jusqu'en 2031. Les Émirats achètent en effet des Rafale au nouveau standard F4, le plus moderne et le plus avancé, qui est en cours de développement en vue d'une mise en service progressive, au sein des forces françaises, sur plusieurs années à partir de 2023. Entretemps, les EAU, qui sont aussi équipés de quelque 80 chasseurs américains F16, continueront à utiliser leur soixantaine de Mirage 2000-9.
-------------
The first Rafale will be delivered from 2027 until 2031. The Emirates are in fact buying Rafale with the new F4 standard, the most modern and the most advanced, which is being developed with a view to gradual entry into service. , within the French forces, over several years from 2023. In the meantime, the UAE, which is also equipped with some 80 American F16 fighters, will continue to use their sixty Mirage 2000-9s.

Dassault claims also doubling their production rate.

Rafale aux Emirats : treize ans de négociations pour un contrat record

Lors de son déplacement à Dubai, Emmanuel Macron a signé avec le cheikh Mohammed Ben Zayed un contrat portant sur la vente de 80 Rafale aux Emirats arabes unis. Il s’agit du plus important contrat passé par Dassault Aviation.

www.lemonde.fr

Dassault Aviation signe un contrat historique avec les Émirats arabes unis

Avec cette commande ferme, la plus importante jamais signée par Dassault Aviation, le constructeur de l'avion de combat français, marque un sixième succès à l'international.

www.lefigaro.fr

Edit:
€14B for the 80 airframe
€2b for armaments
€1b for some Airbus Helicopters (H225)

 

[Hood]

Rafales are selling like hot cakes!

 

[Deltafan]

Historical contract for the acquisition of 80 Rafale F4 by the United Arab Emirates - Press kits

In the presence of the President of the French Republic, Emmanuel Macron, and Sheikh Mohammed ben Zayed Al Nahyane, Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi and Vice-Commander of the Armed Forces of the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation, signed a historical...

www.dassault-aviation.com

 

[Deino]

Well ... taht's impressive!

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

 

[helmutkohl]

I hope we can hear some DACT stories from these middle eastern air forces..
UAE with its F-16b60s vs Rafales
Egypt with its Rafales vs its Su-35s
Qatar with its Eurofighters vs Rafales vs F-15QA and who knows what else theyve also bought!

could be interesting like those Malaysian stories of its F-18s going against its MiG-29s

 

[Flyaway]

Not surprising perhaps as I thought it was still the case that the US would not sell any F-35s to Middle Eastern nations outside of Israel.

 

[TomcatViP]

Please notice also the amount of 17B€ (20+b$) that certainly hide some details that it would be difficult to discuss before anymore details are released.

 

[H_K]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1460502897771175943

View: https://twitter.com/SafranEngines/status/1460502897771175943

Note these are engine hours, so decide by 2 for Rafale flight hours.

For reference, past milestones were:
Dec 2020: 854,000 flight hours
Dec 2019: 753,000
Dec 2018: 664,000
Dec 2017: 574,000
Dec 2016: 495,000
Dec 2015: 416,000
Dec 2014: 350,000
Dec 2013: 295,500
Dec 2012: 241,000

Source: Safran annual reports

 

[TomcatViP]

610000 hours in 8 years, hence 80000- engine hours per year since 2012. Hence 40000-- hours per years per airframe (Rafale).
Divided per 200 (hours), we should hypothetically have 200 airframe.
To this day, there is more or less 240 airframe produced.

The 200 flight hours per year and per airfraime claim is then severely optimistically intrepid...

 

[H_K]

To this day, there is more or less 240 airframe produced

The average fleet size over the 2012-2020 period was far less than that: only 150 Rafales in service.

To be exact, there were 101 Rafales in service at the end of 2012 (115 delivered - 5 losses - 9 Rafale M F1 in storage), increasing to 208 by the end of 2020 (214 delivered - 6 losses).

So 613,000 hours / 8 years / 150 airframes / 2 engines = 255 hours per year.

I believe this may include engine running time on the ground (despite Safran saying “flight hours”) so perhaps subtract a small %… say 10-15%. The result should still be comfortably over 200 flight hrs/year.

Incidentally, the RAVEL maintenance contract pays for 380,000 flight hours over 2019-2028, which translates to 240 flight hrs/year (starting fleet size of 147 Rafales in 2019, ending fleet size of ~187 Rafales in 2028, avg. 169 Rafales). For 2021, the Minister of Defence herself quoted 32,000 flights hours.

 

[Tonton-42]

La Tribune - Michel Cabirol
03 Déc 2021, 9:48 (French translated with Reverso ... )

"This is an incredible victory for the Rafale in the United Arab Emirates (UAE). First because of the size of the two contracts, which is staggering: 16 billion euros, including 14 billion for the 80 Rafale F4 standard manufactured by Dassault Aviation and 2 billion for the armaments supplied by MBDA (Mica NG air-to-air missiles and Black Shaheen cruise missiles, Emirati variant of the French Scalp). It is also possible that the UAE will also purchase Safran’s AASM guided bombs in the coming months. Then, by the number of fighter aircraft ordered by the UAE (80 aircraft). Finally, in view of the long-troubled history of the Rafale which really had trouble landing in the UAE. In the end, it is simply the largest arms contract ever signed by France during the Fifth Republic. And French arms exports in 2021 will smash the record of 2015 (16.9 billion euros), reaching a Himalayan peak of about 28 billion euros in 2021 (four Rafale contracts). Never seen it before!

"With the United Arab Emirates, we are now sealing the sale of 80 Rafale aircraft and 12 Caracal helicopters. With confidence, we are acting together for our security,' tweeted Emmanuel Macron."

"Avec les Émirats arabes unis, nous scellons aujourd'hui la vente de 80 avions Rafale et 12 hélicoptères Caracal. En confiance, nous agissons ensemble pour notre sécurité", a twitté Emmanuel Macron.

 

[Msbb]

2 things about Croatian Rafale purchase.

1 - During the war in Croatia, Sweden government and Saab Dynamics refused to service Croatian RBS-15B rockets, purchased from Sweden. So Gripen had no chance to win contract despite strong lobbying.

2 - Almost half of the Adriatic Sea belongs to Croatia, and Croatia will use these airplanes over sea also. I dont know if that is true or not but there is idea that twin engine airplane is safer to use when flying over sea.

 

[TomcatViP]

1st point: the French politicians were strongly pro Serbian at that time... Until that M2K-N went down.

2nd point: the Adriatic is not that vast that such precautions would prevail. The Italian AF have used single engined fighters for decades without littering the sea with F-104, G-91 or Aermacchi...

 

[perttime]

Rafale and Eurofighter failing to qualify in the Finnish fighter competition has been mentioned in Finnish media.

"Rafale putosi Suomen kilpailusta Eurofighter Typhoonin kanssa jo ennen ratkaisevaa suorituskykyvertailua."

Rafale-hävittäjän valmistaja Dassault pahoillaan: Suomen hävittäjävalinta osoittaa Euroopan suosivan Yhdysvaltoja

Dassaultin Rafale-kone putosi Suomen kilpailusta Eurofighter Typhoonin kanssa jo ennen ratkaisevaa suorituskykyvertailua.

www.is.fi

Google translation can be misleading: "Rafale dropped out of the Finnish competition with Eurofighter Typhoon even before the decisive performance comparison." It is more like: "Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon were eliminated from the Finnish competition even before the decisive performance comparison."

Finnish Broadcasting Company (Yle) had a live program about the choice as soon as it was made. A Government official said that they were trying to guide Rafale and Eurofighter into providing what was required - but never got what they asked for. It was not clear if they were missing performance documentation, details of the economics of the proposed deal, or what.

 

[BullpupRafale]

1st point: the French politicians were strongly pro Serbian at that time... Until that M2K-N went down.

Because of project Novi Avion, basically baby Rafale for Yugoslavian air force that was in works.

It was about the money and M88 turbofans would powered it.

 

[Archibald]

As all the others threads related to China geopolitics have been locked... ok, admittedly only loosely related to Rafale. Besides overseas deployments including by the French Aéronavale.

French overseas territory of New Caledonia has, today, said NO to independance for the third time. A resounding 95-5.
Most immediate consequence: China won't get its ugly hands on the vast nickel ore there - by manipulating the independantists.
Who have boycotted the referendum to get low turnrate, in the hope of contesting the referendum validity soon thereafter. Including in front of the United Nations.

Ugly business... hopefully there won't be blood shed sooner or later.

 

[Archibald]

Rafale and Eurofighter failing to qualify in the Finnish fighter competition has been mentioned in Finnish media.

"Rafale putosi Suomen kilpailusta Eurofighter Typhoonin kanssa jo ennen ratkaisevaa suorituskykyvertailua."

Rafale-hävittäjän valmistaja Dassault pahoillaan: Suomen hävittäjävalinta osoittaa Euroopan suosivan Yhdysvaltoja

Dassaultin Rafale-kone putosi Suomen kilpailusta Eurofighter Typhoonin kanssa jo ennen ratkaisevaa suorituskykyvertailua.

www.is.fi

Google translation can be misleading: "Rafale dropped out of the Finnish competition with Eurofighter Typhoon even before the decisive performance comparison." It is more like: "Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon were eliminated from the Finnish competition even before the decisive performance comparison."

Finnish Broadcasting Company (Yle) had a live program about the choice as soon as it was made. A Government official said that they were trying to guide Rafale and Eurofighter into providing what was required - but never got what they asked for. It was not clear if they were missing performance documentation, details of the economics of the proposed deal, or what.

I can understand the Fins
- they are already flying American for a long time
- they have angry bully Russia on their door step
- they need full and entire stealth and fifth generation as a result.

 

[helmutkohl]

First six Rafale jets to arrive in January | eKathimerini.com

The first batch of French-made Rafale jets will be delivered to the Hellenic Air Force in January, at the 114th Combat Wing in Tanagra.

www.ekathimerini.com

 

[helmutkohl]

France and Greece must not be happy

Turkey to train its pilots on Qatar’s French-made jets to counter Greece's Rafale fleet - Nordic Monitor

The Turkish Air Force is set to train with Qatar’s French-made Dassault Rafale jets to counter the Greek military, which has increased its air force

nordicmonitor.com

 

[Archibald]

France and Greece must not be happy

Turkey to train its pilots on Qatar’s French-made jets to counter Greece's Rafale fleet - Nordic Monitor

The Turkish Air Force is set to train with Qatar’s French-made Dassault Rafale jets to counter the Greek military, which has increased its air force

nordicmonitor.com

Total absurdity, typical of today world and the way armement contracts work. Welcome to absurdland !

 

[TomcatViP]

Old news. This was aleady reported and discussed here way before the last Rafale deal with the EAU was inked. Nothing special here. F-22, f-35 and Rafale commonly joult together. Such are SU-30 and Mig-29 with many NATO types.

At the time this was first reported, there was even a stream of imbeciles among French officials rejoicing that this would lead to further deal with Turkey!

 

[TomcatViP]

Rafale M1 to test emal aboard USN carrier and in the US:

United States Approves Possible FMS of EMALS and AAG to France - Naval News

The United States' State Department approved a possible Foreign Military Sale (FMS) to France of Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS), Advanced Arresting Gear (AAG), and related equipment for an estimated cost of $1.321 billion.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Archibald]

Crew: 900 and 1080 sailors (not including the air element of 550 to 620 sailors) with higher comfort compared to Charles de Gaulle.

Very important point there. It is one of the side-effects of trying to cram a Nimitz catapult on a Clemenceau hull shape pushed to its extreme limits, with the tonnage of a late Essex: crew accomodations are cramped and stuck at 1980's level of comfort... and COVID onboard CdG went pretty badly, 18 months ago (then again, that US supercarrier crew I forgot the name - Lincoln ? - greatly suffered, too).

But CdG antiquated crew accomodations seems to be driving french sailors away from it: to more modern ships.

 

[helmutkohl]

Indonesia Pilih Rafale dan F-15 EX, KSAU: Dengan Berat Hati, Kita Tinggalkan Rencana Pembelian Su-35

Menurut dia, salah satu pertimbangan yang membuat pemerintah memilih untuk membeli Rafale dan F-15 EX adalah anggaran.

nasional.kompas.com

summary translation
Indonesia to drop Su-35 and narrowing it down to F-15 EX or Rafale. Seems to imply Rafale might be ahead due to UAE influence

 

[helmutkohl]

Crew: 900 and 1080 sailors (not including the air element of 550 to 620 sailors) with higher comfort compared to Charles de Gaulle.

Very important point there. It is one of the side-effects of trying to cram a Nimitz catapult on a Clemenceau hull shape pushed to its extreme limits, with the tonnage of a late Essex: crew accomodations are cramped and stuck at 1980's level of comfort... and COVID onboard CdG went pretty badly, 18 months ago (then again, that US supercarrier crew I forgot the name - Lincoln ? - greatly suffered, too).

But CdG antiquated crew accomodations seems to be driving french sailors away from it: to more modern ships.

based on the lessons of CdG and the needs of France in perhaps 20 years into the future, what do you think the next carrier should be like?
taking into consideration future developments of the Rafale and its follow on?