Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY

helmutkohl said:
wow among the 4 contenders, Gripen, used israeli F-16b30s, F-16 (unknown block?) and Rafales

they narrowed it down to the F-16 and Rafale. Gripen didnt even make it to the finalist :confused:
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Arms sales is more about politics than technical specs. Perhaps, Croats still have bad memories about some Swedish politicians (who pushed for arms embargo during last war). Besides, it was Gripen C, not E. So maybe they want to be more prepared against potential future threats from Serbs who are backed by Russia.
 
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Official government statement: https://vlada.gov.hr/news/plenkovic...eterrent-for-the-next-30-40-years/32215?big=1


The Government assessed that France’s offer was the best and decided to procure 12 multi-role Rafale fighter aircraft (10 single-seat and 2 two-seat aircraft). (...)

The French offer, valued at 999 million euros, which will be realized through an agreement between the two governments (Government to Government), is the most favourable and provides for the most convenient payment in instalments that will not slow down our entry into the euro area. (...)

In addition to the aircraft, the French offer also includes:
- A flight simulator
- Basic weapons package
- Ground and test equipment
- Spare parts
- Staff training according to the principle of “training of trainers”
- Comprehensive support from authorized representatives of manufacturers for a period of three years and a warranty of 12 months per each delivered aircraft, engine, other equipment and spare parts.


Note that per my estimates the replacement value of the aircraft is ~€700-750M (€80-85M per plane * 8-9 new build equivalents) and the support package is ~€150M (€4M per aircraft per year), so the Croatians seem to be getting a very good deal with « French Air Force » costs with no markup.

That said these prices do not include the additional contracts that they will need to sign with Dassault, MBDA etc for lifetime spares & support, additional weapons etc, so the €999 million is likely a misleading number used for political convenience.
 
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They are getting an incredible deal indeed.
But Trappier himself (Dassault CEO) publicly put the cost of each Rafale at 120M€ (citation and link in this thread).
So the equivalent price is more that of around 6 brand new airframe. Hence a 50% bargain (12 instead of 6) that comes ontop of all the incredible goodies you mentioned.
The cost for the AdlAE (or the Fr taxpayers) is then 12 times 120M hence ~1.5B€ plus the spare parts... plus the weapons... Plus the time devoided into training Dassault's customers...
 
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TomcatViP said:
If that's a good news for the Croats, the same can't be said for the Frenchs.

Let's update the Macron's equation:
12+12= -24
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All rafales that have been taken from the french air force and sold to Greece will be replaced by new ones, and we can expect the same to happen for those sold to the Croats.
 
does anyone know which F-16 block was being offered by LM for the Croats?
 
Hlf_themax said:
TomcatViP said:
If that's a good news for the Croats, the same can't be said for the Frenchs.

Let's update the Macron's equation:
12+12= -24
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All rafales that have been taken from the french air force and sold to Greece will be replaced by new ones, and we can expect the same to happen for those sold to the Croats.
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In a snap of a finger and at no extra cost obviously...
 
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www.lefigaro.fr

La Croatie fait à son tour le choix du Rafale

Après la Grèce, la Croatie est le deuxième pays européen, membre de l'Otan, à choisir l'avion français.
www.lefigaro.fr www.lefigaro.fr

The planes intended for the Croatian forces will be taken from the French fleet one year before delivery. This "loss" of operational capacity will be compensated "in a second phase, but beyond 2025, with a new order for Rafale to the new F4 standard, which has just completed a first test flight", it is pointed out. at Florence Parly's office.
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TomcatViP said:
They are getting an incredible deal indeed.
But Trappier himself (Dassault CEO) publicly put the cost of each Rafale at 120M€ (citation and link in this thread).
So the equivalent price is more that of around 6 brand new airframe. Hence a 50% bargain (12 instead of 6) that comes ontop of all the incredible goodies you mentioned.
The cost for the AdlAE (or the Fr taxpayers) is then 12 times 120M hence ~1.5B€ plus the spare parts... plus the weapons... Plus the time devoided into training Dassault's customers...
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I went through the whole thread and couldn’t find the post you mention?

I’m fairly familiar with official and Dassault statements about Rafale costs, and AFAIK Trappier has never said such a thing.
 
"Une centaine" is not 100. It's 100 + a delta. 120 came from a rounded value sourced out of the contract referenced in the reference.

If I say to you I weight "une centaine" of kilogrammes and I am an honest mathematician, it means I am probably around 149kg ;)

And that's even before FB...
 
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One of the four diplomats said French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly was upset by Stoltenberg's decision to go public in February with the outline of his proposal. Stoltenberg met Macron in Paris on May 21, praising the French president for France's "significant defence investment".
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www.reuters.com

EXCLUSIVE France resists more joint funding of 'brain dead' NATO

A $20 billion plan to give NATO more flexibility in facing military threats, climate change and China's rise has hit firm resistance from France, which fears the move could undermine its defence priorities, four diplomats and a French defence source said.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Not less. Otherwise, the closest inferior is 9 dizaines (90 something- usually expressed as 8 dozen like in english) etc... Une centaine equates anything b/w 100 and 200 but mathematically it's capped by 149.999999.

It should be 6ème (5th grade) level unless things have drastically changed.
 
Things never changed...


Centaine : Définition simple et facile du dictionnaire

Centaine : définition, contraire, citations, traduction dans le dictionnaire de la langue française. Définition : Groupe de cent unités...
www.linternaute.fr www.linternaute.fr

centaine — Wiktionnaire, le dictionnaire libre

fr.wiktionary.org fr.wiktionary.org

CENTAINE : Définition de CENTAINE

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www.lalanguefrancaise.com

Définition de centaine | Dictionnaire français

Définition de centaine : dictionnaire, étymologie, phonétique, citations littéraires, synonymes et antonymes de « centaine »
www.lalanguefrancaise.com www.lalanguefrancaise.com

Définitions et usages de : centaine - Dictionnaire de français sensagent

centaine : définitions, significations, usages, synonymes, antonymes, dérivés, analogies dans les dictionnaires sensagent (français)
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lexique.netmath.ca lexique.netmath.ca

 
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Official Croatian gov. statement:

« The offer of the French Republic envisages the delivery of 12 twin-engine aircraft (ten single-seater and two two-seater) Rafale in the F3-R standard, with a remaining resource of about 3800 hours of 7000 hours and with a potential extension of service life up to 9000 hours »


So that means that ~35% to ~45% of the aircrafts’ service life has been used up and the 12 used Rafales are roughly equivalent to 6.5 to 7.7 new build Rafales.
 
H_K said:
Official Croatian gov. statement:

« The offer of the French Republic envisages the delivery of 12 twin-engine aircraft (ten single-seater and two two-seater) Rafale in the F3-R standard, with a remaining resource of about 3800 hours of 7000 hours and with a potential extension of service life up to 9000 hours »


So that means that ~35% to ~45% of the aircrafts’ service life has been used up and the 12 used Rafales are roughly equivalent to 6.5 to 7.7 new build Rafales.
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Those are thr nbr of the most used airframe as projected in 2024. This is different from a service life that have been used.

Issu du parc de l’Armée de l’Air et de l’Espace, un premier lot de 6 appareils sera livré en 2024 et le second en 2025. Dassault Aviation garantissant un potentiel de 9000 heures par appareil. Le plus âgé fêtera ses 10 ans en 2024.
-------((((

Sourced from the Air Force fleet, a first batch of 6 aircraft will be delivered in 2024 and the second in 2025. Dassault Aviation guarantees a potential of 9,000 hours per aircraft. The oldest will turn 10 in 2024.
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Here

Notice also the guarantee on the airframe potential.

Last but not least, it won't be long before someone realizes that by selling weapons that are already in service just to allegedly replace them with a latter buy, France will invariably fail to reach its NATO commitment to 2% of GDP as seen through a rational analysis...
 
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@TomcatViP An official statement should carry more weight than a news source. The statement is also quite clear.

If you reread the Air & Cosmos article, you’ll see that it doesn’t actually claim that the aircraft have 9,000 hours *remaining*, only that they have a *potentiel service life* of 9,000 hours. It says nothing of how many of those hours have actually been used.

One might quibble that some aircraft won’t have used up all 3,200 hours implied by the official statement... that said if we’re talking 10 year old airframes it won’t be hard for the FAF to pick only aircraft in the high 2,000s - low 3,000s hours.
 
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Seems F-4-1 datalink was test flown in a 8 ship dissimilar formation:

View: https://youtu.be/URvGCfc-DJ4


@H_K : you have already been proved wrong in the way you are over estimating the nbr of hours flown and minoring the cost of new airframe. That's 2 singular errors too far overlapping in a certain vision that those used airframe were well sold. I don't want to be dragged further along in that nonsense.
Thank you.
 
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Here is a recap of official statements from verifiable sources... trying to limit my posts to the factual since I get flamed every time.

1) Croatian government statement that the Rafales will have 3,800 of 7,000 hours remaining, I.e will have flown 3,200 hours

2) Dassault official website dated early 2018 that Rafale fleet leaders had already flown >3,300 hours

3) French Senat report that Rafale unit production costs as of 2015 were €68 (Rafale C) and €73M (Rafale B)

4) 15 years of French Senat reports tracking Rafale costs that indicate an annual inflation of~2% from 2000 through 2015
 
2.jpg.db97051d736f6f6a55dc15f7cd42966a.jpg

 
helmutkohl said:
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There is some articles in France after the article of Le Matin. It's again the discussion at the Swiss National Council ("3700 km"), the speech of Parly in Swiss in March ("Black boxes"), the "SkyView" contract with Thales two weeks later and the threats of popular initiative launched by the left in the event of an American choice. Some articles add cooperation around Swiss trainer PC-21, the Industrial offers from European manufacturers which would be more interesting, the potential duration of production chains (with now no more gap for the Rafale until at least 2030) or the postponement of the order for 12 new Rafale intended to replace second-hand ones sold to Croatia, to favor export deliveries...

But this is just speculation. Better to wait for the official announcement (maybe June 23, if we are to believe Le Matin). For the Rafale, if there have already been announcements of this kind which have been confirmed in the past (such as Greece or Croatia, but with more concrets sources), others have proved to be inaccurate (such as Morocco or Brazil).
 
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Wyvern said:
More of the same:
www.thedrive.com

Croatia Is Getting French Rafale Multirole Fighters To Replace Its Veteran MiG-21s

Although second-hand, the French-made fighters will provide a huge leap in capability for the Balkan nation.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
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Interesting quote from that article.
Speaking to The War Zone on condition of anonymity, a former Croatian Air Force MiG-21 pilot explained that he saw the Rafale as “absolute unnecessary overkill” for the country, adding that, even today, only around 30 percent of the MiG’s capabilities are actually being utilized — primarily, QRA scrambles and training for these same missions.

Describing the Rafale decision as politically motivated, he said he was concerned that no serious cost/benefit calculation had been provided for the full planned service life of the new jets and he also pointed out that the existing infrastructure at Zagreb-Pleso Air Base will require significant renovation, including modern hangars.
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^ yep I agree. for a small country like Croatia, something like the FA-50 or M-346 should be sufficient for QRA and training
 
helmutkohl said:
^ yep I agree. for a small country like Croatia, something like the FA-50 or M-346 should be sufficient for QRA and training
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Resources - wise : you are certainly right. BUT - counterpoints: a) Balkans, one of the world most troubled zones beside Korea, MiddleEast... and b) Serbia as a client of Russia and btw, it's Vlad Putin, so better to watch your back. Also, since 2001 or 2011 or COVID, considering the way events go in this angry and dangerous century, you'd better get a handful of Rafales at least to protect your airspace.

Only peaceful and remote New Zealand can still afford not having fast jets for air defense (until the PRC navy starts playing havoc that far from home - you'll never known, they have started pissing off nearby Australia...)
 
The only overkill I see is the twin engine layout. Money spent for nothing IMOHO. But then it would have been hard to get a better deal given that France was so eager to sign a new contract.

There is, however the concerns that come with a major NATO partner claiming it reaches the 2% threshold in defense spendings while divesting that effort in foreign sales...
 
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Shame the Mirage 2000 has been dead and buried for 15 years but really - Dassault isn't Lockmart, not big enough to afford a smooth transition between one steamroller (the F-16 4500 airframes) and the next steamroller (F-35, 3000 airframes + planned those days). Had the Rafale sold earlier and better, just like the Mirage 50 and F1 in the 2000 early days (before 1990) the 2000-9 might have been allowed to survive longer and still evolve.
 
Maybe another step for Rafale toward Indonesia:

www.airspace-review.com

Kabar baik, Kemhan dan Dassault sudah tandatangani kontrak 36 Rafale

Kemhan RI dan Dassault Aviation dikabarkan telah menandatangani kontrak awal yaitu kontrak "Come Into Force" pengadaan 36 jet tempur Rafale.
www.airspace-review.com www.airspace-review.com

To be confirmed, or not, in December...

Good news, the Ministry of Defense and Dassault have signed the initial 36 Rafale contracts​

June 10, 2021

Good news from the planned purchase of defense equipment by the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Indonesia (Kemhan RI).
An Airspace Review source in Jakarta said the Indonesian Ministry of Defense and Dassault Aviation (the manufacturer of the Rafale ) from France had signed an initial contract for the procurement of 36 multi-role fighter jets.

The signing of the initial contract called the “Come Into Force” contract was signed on Monday, June 7, 2021 and will take effect in December 2021.
“The 'Come Into Force' contract was signed on Monday, June 7th. The contract will take effect in December this year," said an AR source.
He added that Indonesia's journey to get the Rafale plane from France is still long.

The “Come Into Force” contract will then become the basis for the Effective Contract after all agreements between Indonesia and France are reached and Indonesia has paid an advance for the purchase of 36 Rafales.
Meanwhile, until now Indonesia and France have not reached agreement points for Trade Returns, Local Content and/or Offsets (IDKLO) in terms of the planned purchase of 36 Rafale .

As is known, Law no. 16 of 2012 concerning the Defense Industry mandates that the purchase of alpalhankam (defense and security equipment) from abroad must be accompanied by an IDKLO. (...)
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TomcatViP said:
The only overkill I see is the twin engine layout. Money spent for nothing IMOHO. But then it would have been hard to get a better deal given that France was so eager to sign a new contract.

There is, however the concerns that comes with a major NATO partner claiming it reaches the 2% threshold in defense spendings while divesting that effort in foreign sales...
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yup i totally agree, something I've always said (but usually disliked by French posters on various boards)..

France should have stuck with a single engine light jet, as far as exports goes. the Mirage III and F.1 were great examples. Imagine if they made the Novi Avion!

Although yes, a twin engine medium fighter is better for France's specific needs.

I predict that if they ever get around to FCAS (lets call it Mirage 5000 because i like the Mirage name)
it'll probably be mainly used by Germany and France, maybe some other wealthy gulf state. but won't be as in high demand like the past French aircraft.
 
something I've always said (but usually disliked by French posters on various boards)
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I feel sorry for you, really. The real story is extremely tortured.

Blame the French Air Force !

Dassault was no fool: he knew that single-engine types a) were more affordable for France and b) sold like hot cakes for export (1400 Mirage III, 700 F1 and 620 Mirage 2000 build: 2720 Mirages not counting the prototypes).
But the AdA was self-obsessed with very unaffordable twin-engine types.
I already wrote that list in many other threads
- Mirage IVC (1958 - NO - turned into a nuclear bomber)
- AFVG (1967 - NO - died)
- Mirage G4 (1968 - NO - shrunk into the G8)
- Mirage G8 (1969-72 - NO - too expensive)
- ACF (1972 - 1975 -NOOO - TOO EXPENSIVE)
- Mirage 4000 (1975 - 1988 -NOOOOOOOO - TOO EXPENSIVE, THRICE - get the 2000 instead)

Would you believe the Armée de l'Air would grow discouraged ? They had dreamed of Phantoms (once), then of F-111s (thrice), and then of F-15s (twice).

Hell, no. They argued that the F-18 could make a twin-jet affordable, and they carried the day - by the early 2000's...

SEVENTH TIME was the charm !

Dassault usually built what the Armée de l'Air wanted yet thanks to foreign sales he would also build "private ventures prototypes" - and once the AdA budget would not afford the big aircraft, he would pitch the private venture prototype - and carry the day !

The Mirage III was a happy accident born of the LWF quagmire that were the Mirage I and II

The Mirage F1 was a happy accident born out of the multiple failures of VSTOL, VG and swept wing types (F2 / F3, G, III-V...)

The Mirage 2000 was a happy accident born out of the F1M53 / ACF / 4000 failures.
 
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Flyaway said:
Wyvern said:
More of the same:
www.thedrive.com

Croatia Is Getting French Rafale Multirole Fighters To Replace Its Veteran MiG-21s

Although second-hand, the French-made fighters will provide a huge leap in capability for the Balkan nation.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
Interesting quote from that article.
Speaking to The War Zone on condition of anonymity, a former Croatian Air Force MiG-21 pilot explained that he saw the Rafale as “absolute unnecessary overkill” for the country, adding that, even today, only around 30 percent of the MiG’s capabilities are actually being utilized — primarily, QRA scrambles and training for these same missions.

Describing the Rafale decision as politically motivated, he said he was concerned that no serious cost/benefit calculation had been provided for the full planned service life of the new jets and he also pointed out that the existing infrastructure at Zagreb-Pleso Air Base will require significant renovation, including modern hangars.
Click to expand...
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That is something that always got me questioning the Rafale purchase by the Croatians, it is a bit of a leap to go from a MiG-21 to a Rafale. Something like a Gripen would be more suited to their requirements.

I'm not saying that they made the wrong decision, I just found it a bit....odd.
 
@Wyvern : Well, when the USAF will start to re-sale their brand new F-15EX at 40+M€ (half the acquisition cost) with a complete weapon package at an extra 200M€ per dozen of planes and with a couple of years of included maintenance, you'll probably see even the Irish air Corps start placing order*.


*something thankfully Mr Macron has yet not think of
 
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Wyvern said:
Flyaway said:
Wyvern said:
More of the same:
www.thedrive.com

Croatia Is Getting French Rafale Multirole Fighters To Replace Its Veteran MiG-21s

Although second-hand, the French-made fighters will provide a huge leap in capability for the Balkan nation.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
Click to expand...
Interesting quote from that article.
Speaking to The War Zone on condition of anonymity, a former Croatian Air Force MiG-21 pilot explained that he saw the Rafale as “absolute unnecessary overkill” for the country, adding that, even today, only around 30 percent of the MiG’s capabilities are actually being utilized — primarily, QRA scrambles and training for these same missions.

Describing the Rafale decision as politically motivated, he said he was concerned that no serious cost/benefit calculation had been provided for the full planned service life of the new jets and he also pointed out that the existing infrastructure at Zagreb-Pleso Air Base will require significant renovation, including modern hangars.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
That is something that always got me questioning the Rafale purchase by the Croatians, it is a bit of a leap to go from a MiG-21 to a Rafale. Something like a Gripen would be more suited to their requirements.

I'm not saying that they made the wrong decision, I just found it a bit....odd.
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There are 2 elements to this.

ANY fighter aircraft the Croatians bought will need their associated infrastructure totally revamped so that’s an inevitability, and it would likely to be a long-term false economy to try to “get-away” with carrying over any miss-matched existing infrastructure from the MIG-21 era.

My first impression would also be that a Rafale may well be over kill for a dedicated QRA-type role and that a cheaper option may be available to do that. However it is worth querying if in this specific case some of these “cheaper” options actually are cheaper (the Gripen, for example). And given the lack of sales for the likes of the FA-50 it is notable that a lot of airforces (and their governments) don’t appear to want this class of fighter and are opting for something a bit heavier and more capable (like the Rafale in this case).
 
Nations have always wanted 'proper' fighters if they can get their hands on them. That's why so many smaller air forces have clung onto F-86s, MiGs and F-5s in the past until they were practically flying museum pieces.
Smaller subsonic fighters like the Hawk 200, AMX or FA-50 have never sold well when the Air Marshals want afterburning thunderous displays on national days and makes their air force look potent against the neighbours.

Saying that, I must admit this Rafale revival has taken me by surprise. Ignoring any political shenanigans and AdA attempts to make the fleet look younger, it has certainly stolen a march on the Typhoon which for its last sales relied on the Middle Eastern pro-buying British market and heavy export credits too.
 

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