Dassault Mirage 2000

[snne]

Ben voilà...

M2K-5 will do great. Hope that Meteor are part of this.

France announces transfer of Mirage 2000 fighters to Ukraine

Amid the D-Day commemorative ceremonies, French President Macron confirmed the transfer of Mirage 2000-5 fighter jets to Ukraine to help the country defend its airspace against Russia's invasion.

www.aerotime.aero

but doesn't it have a radar that is even inferior to the apg-68? How are Meteors going to play a part in such suboptimal conditions?

Macron also mentioned working in partnership with other Mirage users to determine the final number… presumably Qatar or Greece.

Greece has been trying to get rid of their F-16B30s and M2Ks in exchange for better fighters, namely more Rafales and F-35s.

Indonesia was seriously interested in the Qatari(?) Mirages, I don't know what happened to that deal though.

It seems like the UkrAF has lost its abilities more than I previously thought.

 

[F-2]

but doesn't it have a radar that is even inferior to the apg-68? How are Meteors going to play a part in such suboptimal conditions?


Greece has been trying to get rid of their F-16B30s and M2Ks in exchange for better fighters, namely more Rafales and F-35s.

Indonesia was seriously interested in the Qatari(?) Mirages, I don't know what happened to that deal though.

It seems like the UkrAF has lost its abilities more than I previously thought.

Na RDY is very good for the relative size of the aircraft, as was RDI. It’s MICA I’m a bit more concerned with.

 

[snne]

Na RDY is very good for the relative size of the aircraft, as was RDI. It’s MICA I’m a bit more concerned with.

Even some AESA radars such as the APG-83 would have trouble making full use of the capabilities that Meteor provides, what makes you think the RDY/APG-68/et al. can handle this task just fine?

The modernized version, RDY-2 has a 15% greater air-to-air range, an SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) mode that allows ground mapping with a resolution of less than one meter and refined moving ground target tracking. It has demonstrated it´s ability to detect, reliably, fighter size targets at 140 km.

The original RDI/RDM radars on the Mirage 2000 only worked in air-to-air mode.[2] The RDY was designed to add air-to-ground modes, in particular the ability to control Exocet and Kormoran 2 anti-shipping missiles.[2] The 240 kg (530 lb) system has a 655 mm (25.8 in) flat-plate antenna scanning a 3.5° beam over a 60° cone at powers up to 120 kW.[2] Maximum range is 60 nmi (110 km) in air-to-air mode and 20 nmi (37 km) in look-down mode.[2] The RDY can detect 24 targets, track eight of them and engage four targets at a time.[2] The enhanced RDY-2 has a slightly greater range and adds a SAR mode.

RDY is the standard fit on the Mirage 2000–5,-5Mk2 (RDY-2) and -9 (RDY-2) aircraft and has been retrofitted aboard 37 French Air Force Mirage 2000Cs (aircraft to Mirage 2000-5F standard; 11 aircraft redelivered during 1998, 22 during 1999), 25 Greek Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 and 62 United Arab Emirates' Mirage 2000EAD/DADs. Other customers for the Mirage 2000-5 include Qatar (Mirage 2000-5EDA and -5DDA aircraft) and Taiwan (Mirage 2000-5Ei and -5Di aircraft). India's fleet will receive RDY-2 under a €1.47bn contract signed in July 2011 to upgrade them to 2000-5 standard.

 

[F-2]

Even some AESA radars such as the APG-83 would have trouble making full use of the capabilities that Meteor provides, what makes you think the RDY/APG-83/et al. can handle this task just fine?

Zero clue if they can integrate Meteor but it doesn’t seem RDY would be worse then Captor-M. Same processor and power as RBE2 PESA and at least the early version of AESA (RDY range is between these two). Seems it could work.

Fig. 5. Long range detection.
In a 120 ° direction angle sector, the altitude section scanned isfrom 100,000ft to 80 NM. (Thomson-CSF/Radars & Contre-Mesures document)

 

[H_K]

How are Meteors going to play a part in such suboptimal conditions?

Maybe Meteor + datalink provided by a 3rd party platform?

Also Mica NG deliveries from 2026… doubles the range AFAIK (100-130km). Perhaps a small number could be handed over for use against high value targets.

 

[Archibald]

Happy for Ukraine but - I will die on this hill - this will not help France baseline combat jet force objective, which is 225, Rafale-M included (40); hence 185 AdA combat jets.
Nowadays the force is 55*Mirage 2000D, 30*Mirage 2000-5F hence 85 Mirages left. Which means a bare minimum of 100 AdA Rafales. Or 130 now that the 2000-5F are going away prematurely.
(EDIT: my bad, only 12*2000-5F to be transfered, out of 30 left - and 37 converted 25 years ago).
Not sure the present inventory or orders fill those numbers, with Croatia and Greece being handled a few second-hand Rafales.

 

[Forest Green]

Happy for Ukraine but - I will die on this hill - this will not help France baseline combat jet force objective, which is 225, Rafale-M included (40); hence 185 AdA combat jets.
Nowadays the force is 55*Mirage 2000D, 30*Mirage 2000-5F hence 85 Mirages left. Which means a bare minimum of 100 AdA Rafales. Or 130 now that the 2000-5F are going away prematurely.
(EDIT: my bad, only 12*2000-5F to be transfered, out of 30 left - and 37 converted 25 years ago).
Not sure the present inventory or orders fill those numbers, with Croatia and Greece being handled a few second-hand Rafales.

2024 France Military Strength

Detailing the current military strength of France including air force, army, navy, financials and manpower.

www.globalfirepower.com

 

[H_K]

Not sure the present inventory or orders fill those numbers, with Croatia and Greece being handled a few second-hand Rafales.

The French Air Force has ~100 Rafales right now, which is set to rise to 118 by early 2026. This includes 24 remaining Tranche 4 deliveries minus the last 6 used Rafales to be handed over to Croatia.

Add 48-55 Mirage 2000Ds and 27 Mirage 2000-5s and that puts you right around the goal of 180-185. The -5s were going to start retiring in 2026 (to be replaced by Tranche 5 Rafales from 2027), so this accelerates the timeline by just ~2 years.

Perhaps they will just skip the NATO air policing / reassurance missions for a year or two… that was a key part of the -5’s role, and they will be much better used in Ukraine.

 

[Archibald]

Ah thank you. That helps. I wasn't too off the mark, just pessimistic. What's tranche 5 Rafale, anyway ? that 42 order from last year ?

 

[Trident]

What would Kiev do with their F-16 composite skinned wings? Not an easy patch.

The only F-16 (sort of) with a composite wing is the Mitsubishi F-2. Normal Falcons have about the same composite content as a Mirage 2000 or MiG-29 (the latter of which the Ukrainians have lots of experience with, obviously).

 

[Deltafan]

The French Minister of Defense confirms that the Mirage 2000-5 promised to Ukraine will be taken from the Armée de l'Air fleet.

https://www.opex360.com/2024/06/07/m-lecornu-confirme-que-les-mirage-2000-5-promis-a-lukraine-seront-preleves-sur-la-flotte-de-larmee-de-lair/

(...)
the Armée de l'Air (...) will therefore have to do without the Mirage 2000-5s taken from its inventory for a while.
(...)
How many devices will be affected out of the twenty-six provided? The minister did not wish to respond. “We are obviously not giving a figure now, also for reasons of secrecy, confidentiality in any case, vis-à-vis Russia,” he said.
(...)
Furthermore, President Macron also mentioned a “coalition” to supply Mirage 2000-5s to Ukraine. But Mr. Lecornu refused to say more. “You can see which countries can be equipped with French fighter planes, so that gives a window of possibility,” he said. Qatar and Greece are the only two other countries to have Mirage 2000-5s.
(...)

 

[TomcatViP]

Legally, France can requisition any Rafale going out of the production line now that we are in a sort of war, as stated loudly by the French Presidency

With the probable financial arrangements that have been done to facilitate on very favorable terms sales to many countries, France can even probably invoke only legal terms to postpone nearly indefinitely the handover of manufactured airframe for its own sake.

I would not shy on this if I was them. A financial favor can not legally endanger the donor. Just pick one or two here and there.

 

[Grey Havoc]

France to send Mirage jets to Ukraine – but are they worth the bother?

The fighter planes will require infrastructure that Ukraine is already struggling to build for American-made F-16s

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Topi]

Happy for Ukraine but - I will die on this hill - this will not help France baseline combat jet force objective, which is 225, Rafale-M included (40); hence 185 AdA combat jets.
Nowadays the force is 55*Mirage 2000D, 30*Mirage 2000-5F hence 85 Mirages left. Which means a bare minimum of 100 AdA Rafales. Or 130 now that the 2000-5F are going away prematurely.
(EDIT: my bad, only 12*2000-5F to be transfered, out of 30 left - and 37 converted 25 years ago).
Not sure the present inventory or orders fill those numbers, with Croatia and Greece being handled a few second-hand Rafales.

The small number of airframes which France can donate is exactly the reason why I am of the opinion that the acquisition of Mirage 2000-5s and -9s from export customers for Ukraine is an absolute must. If a deal for the Qatari and Greek Mirages has not yet been signed, it must be reached with greatest possible urgency. The possibility of acquiring the Emirati Mirages must also be seriously studied. The probable problem of insufficient amount of spare M53 engines must also be solved in one way or another. Luckily, Macron announced that there will be a Mirage coalition. Let us all hope that this coalition will not turn out to be a mirage (pun intended) like the Leopard 2 coalition turned out to be a little over a year ago. Another question pertains to the different technical and equipment standards of different Mirages. The avionics, mechanical parts and certified ordnance must be as close to an identical fit on the Mirages provided to Ukraine as possible. Therefore, the aircraft must be brought to a common standard with an RDY-2 or -3 radar (or even ex-Rafale RBE2 PESAs replaced by RBE2-AA AESAs in their original aircraft), common electronic warfare systems and datalinks, common cockpit layouts and compatibility with MICA-NG (and even Meteor), AASM, SCALP-EG, Exocet and even some American weapons like AIM-120, AGM-88 or SDB.

 

[F-2]

The small number of airframes which France can donate is exactly the reason why I am of the opinion that the acquisition of Mirage 2000-5s and -9s from export customers for Ukraine is an absolute must. If a deal for the Qatari and Greek Mirages has not yet been signed, it must be reached with greatest possible urgency. The possibility of acquiring the Emirati Mirages must also be seriously studied. The probable problem of insufficient amount of spare M53 engines must also be solved in one way or another. Luckily, Macron announced that there will be a Mirage coalition. Let us all hope that this coalition will not turn out to be a mirage (pun intended) like the Leopard 2 coalition turned out to be a little over a year ago. Another question pertains to the different technical and equipment standards of different Mirages. The avionics, mechanical parts and certified ordnance must be as close to an identical fit on the Mirages provided to Ukraine as possible. Therefore, the aircraft must be brought to a common standard with an RDY-2 or -3 radar (or even ex-Rafale RBE2 PESAs replaced by RBE2-AA AESAs in their original aircraft), common electronic warfare systems and datalinks, common cockpit layouts and compatibility with MICA-NG (and even Meteor), AASM, SCALP-EG, Exocet and even some American weapons like AIM-120, AGM-88 or SDB.

Didn’t they just retire a bunch of Mirage 2000C? Possibly at least a few engines.

I think trade in mirage from export customers is the plan?

RBE2 PESA isn’t totally swapped out, the antenna and TWT are replaced with AESA, I don’t think there are spare sets. Most of the Rafale fleet is still PESA and I don’t think they can spare the TWT from the other jets. Also I’ve heard RDY is the better radar for pure air to air.

 

[NMaude]

What about the possibility of reopening the M53 production line?

 

[Deltafan]

If a deal for the Qatari and Greek Mirages has not yet been signed, it must be reached with greatest possible urgency. The possibility of acquiring the Emirati Mirages must also be seriously studied.

According to an article from April 11, 2024 in this Moroccan newspaper (As Sahifa):

خاص - بعد أن قامت بتعطيلها لثلاث سنوات.. فرنسا تؤشر على نقل 30 طائرة Mirage 2000-9 إماراتية إلى المغرب

شكل اللقاء الذي جمع، أمس الأربعاء، في باريس، بين وزير الخارجية المغربي، ناصر بوريطة، ونظير الفرنسي ستيفان سيجورني، طرح العديد من الملفات العالقة بين البلدين التي كانت محل خلاف ديبلوماسي على مدى السنتين الماضيتين، وجعلت من العلاقة بين باريس والرباط تدخل مرحلة

www.assahifa.com

France wanted to buy 40 Mirage 2000-9 from the United Arab Emirates, to give them to Ukraine, but an agreement was not reached, the latter preferring to "cede" 30 to Morocco and 39 to Egypt.

The meeting which brought together, yesterday Wednesday, in Paris, the Moroccan Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nasser Bourita, and his French counterpart, Stéphane Séjourné, notably concerned outstanding questions between the two countries
(...)
In terms of Defense, the transfer of Emirati Mirage 2000-9 to Morocco was authorized after great hesitation on the part of the Macron administration.
(...)
According to exclusive information available on the “Al-Sahifa” website, the transfer of 30 Emirati “Mirage 2000-9” aircraft to Morocco was thus authorized by the French side.

According to the same source, this file was one of those discussed between the foreign ministers of the two countries and Paris finally accepted the transfer, at the request of Abu Dhabi, which had signed a contract for the acquisition of 80 Rafale in 2021. The French hesitation was due to Paris's desire to buy 40 Emirati “Mirage 2000-9” and transfer them to Ukraine to support its war against Russia, while the UAE preferred to cede 69 aircraft of this model, 30 to Morocco and 39 to Egypt.
(...)

 

[Scott Kenny]

Remember also that a punctured aluminum skinned delta wing flies as well as a brand new one (just add a bit of gas and alpha) and requires only basic workmanship to be returned to combat. What would Kiev do with their F-16 composite skinned wings? Not an easy patch.

The Battle Damage repair for a composite wing is an aluminum patch over the damaged section, just like for an aluminum skin. Riveted and epoxied. Plane would be ready to fly in ~4 hours from return to base.

The good repair is grinding out the damaged composites and laying in new fiberglass/whatever cloth. And that's a skill that most auto body repair folks have these days! Plane will be ready to fly in about 24hrs from return to base.

 

[Deltafan]

What about the possibility of reopening the M53 production line?

IMHO, none...

 

[TomcatViP]

@Scott Kenny @Trident : you two are rights. I stand corrected.


Source:
New challenges and technologies related to aircrafts’ battle damages - Scientific Figure on ResearchGate. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...F-16-aircraft-Source-Own-study_fig2_327062792

 

[TomcatViP]

According to an article from April 11, 2024 in this Moroccan newspaper (As Sahifa):

خاص - بعد أن قامت بتعطيلها لثلاث سنوات.. فرنسا تؤشر على نقل 30 طائرة Mirage 2000-9 إماراتية إلى المغرب

شكل اللقاء الذي جمع، أمس الأربعاء، في باريس، بين وزير الخارجية المغربي، ناصر بوريطة، ونظير الفرنسي ستيفان سيجورني، طرح العديد من الملفات العالقة بين البلدين التي كانت محل خلاف ديبلوماسي على مدى السنتين الماضيتين، وجعلت من العلاقة بين باريس والرباط تدخل مرحلة

www.assahifa.com

France wanted to buy 40 Mirage 2000-9 from the United Arab Emirates, to give them to Ukraine, but an agreement was not reached, the latter preferring to "cede" 30 to Morocco and 39 to Egypt.

And there was no dramatic Ambassador recall?

Sometimes, you´ve to wonder...

 

[Archibald]

I'm not the only one to think the AdA will be a bit short on fighters...

« La flotte de l’armée de l’air est déjà à l’os » : Mirage 2000-5 pour l’Ukraine, est-ce vraiment une bonne idée ?

Emmanuel Macron a annoncé le transfert en Ukraine de chasseurs Mirage 2000-5. S’ils peuvent être précieux pour frapper la chasse russe, ces appareils ne changeront pas fondamentalement la donne sur le terrain.

www-challenges-fr.translate.goog

 

[F.L.]

It's driving me crazy !
The countries that donated F-16s have replaced them with F-35s, while these M2K-5s won't be replaced for a few years !!!

 

[Archibald]

Dassault could build 36 Rafales per year, and the AdA really wants to have 225, rather than 185, of them. But France complicated financial balance does not allow too large a budget for the military...

 

[TomcatViP]

Dassault could also re-open the Mirage line for cheaper. Call it the M2K EX (in memory of the administration that green lighted the program, obviously).
More seriously, let´s wait and see how this will be articulated. Retired Greek M2K may see a new life in France. Think that it is more convenient to send A2A (said so) only configured airplane to Kiev than dual-role or A2G ones.
With their blue Cammo, the Stork´s look way more peaceful than green ugly D´s and else.

 

[F.L.]

Dassault could build 36 Rafales per year, and the AdA really wants to have 225, rather than 185, of them. But France complicated financial balance does not allow too large a budget for the military...

Entre pouvoir et vouloir, la différence est grande !
(In english : There's a big difference between “could” and “want” !)

 

[totoro]

Its unlikely all m2000 will be given to Ukraine at once. Rather, a dozen per year is more likely. Starting sometime in 2025. Or late 2024 if secret training has been going on. So France will likely have time to replace those with new rafales. That's just a personal opinion.

 

[H_K]

AdA really wants to have 225, rather than 185, of them. But France complicated financial balance does not allow too large a budget for the military...

Even excluding all 26 Mirage 2000-5s (some of which will undoubtedly remain in service), France would still be left with ~200 Rafale/Mirage 2000D fighters.

Compare to Germany with ~190 fighters and the UK with ~150 fighters and it’s hard to see the French situation as so dire really.

 

[Forest Green]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1799854834608193633

EDIT: Additionally.

Argentinian Super Etendard Strike Jets Planned For Transfer To Ukraine: Report

After F-16s and Mirage 2000s, will the French-made Super Etendard strike jet be the next Western combat aircraft for Ukraine?

www.twz.com

 

[DWG]

Indonesia was seriously interested in the Qatari(?) Mirages, I don't know what happened to that deal though.

IIRC, the Indonesians cancelled their interest to free up the money for other proposed acquisitions.

 

[Archibald]

Such as Rafales.

 

[TomcatViP]

ADLAE adding pressure on Dassault´s rafale production line:

Concrètement, explique-t-il, pour l'armée de l'air et de l'espace, « il s'agira de transposer quelques activités qui sont aujourd'hui réalisées par le Mirage 2000-5 sur la flotte Rafale ». « C'est une réarticulation des missions entre la flotte Mirage 2000 et les Rafale », résume-t-il.

Mais de préciser que le calendrier de livraison de Rafale, prévu dans la loi de Programmation militaire, sera « clé », afin de compenser cette cession « le plus rapidement possible ».
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------//---------------------------------------------------------

Concretely, he explains, for the Air and Space Force, “it will be a question of transposing some activities which are currently carried out by the Mirage 2000-5 on the Rafale fleet”. “It’s a rearticulation of missions between the Mirage 2000 fleet and the Rafale,” he summarizes.

But to specify that the Rafale delivery schedule, provided for in the Military Planning Law, will be “key”, in order to compensate for this transfer “as quickly as possible”.

(Gen Mille, head of Staff of ADLAE [French Air and Space Force])

Cession des Mirage à l'Ukraine : « Il faut préciser le calendrier afin de compenser le plus rapidement possible » (général Mille)

PARIS AIR FORUM 2024 - Emmanuel Macron a promis des chasseurs Mirage 2000 à Kiev. Côté français, cette cession va nécessairement provoquer une réorganisation des flottes, explique le général Stéphane Mille, chef d'état-major de l'armée de l'air, au Paris Air Forum 2024 ce jeudi 13 juin.

www.latribune.fr

My take: Dassault should be proactive numbering which export airframe could be redirected toward the frenches in the shortest time.

 

[TomcatViP]

12 Qatari M2K-5 offered to India (and not for spare parts) for $50M per a/c:

India, Qatar discuss proposal for sale of 12 used Mirage-2000 fighter aircraft | India News - Times of India

India News: India and Qatar discuss purchase of 12 second-hand Mirage-2000-5 jets in New Delhi. Qatari offer includes missiles and engines. Indian Air Force to in

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Wonder if we have here some bargaining chip (India is negotiating their new Rafale order and France would want to grab both that order and the Mirage).

 

[siegecrossbow]

UAE Mirage-2000 exercising with Sino-Flanker and J-10C.

 

[datafuser]

UAE Mirage-2000 exercising with Sino-Flanker and J-10C.

View attachment 734727

Any picture of the last year's Falcon Shield 2023?

I wonder if the UAE's F-16E/Fs had been to China.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Any picture of the last year's Falcon Shield 2023?

I wonder if the UAE's F-16E/Fs had been to China.

No photos to the best of my knowledge other than a transport plane at a Xinjiang airport. And given the fact that Americans keep close tabs on exported assets and didn’t raise hell with the Emiratis, I don’t think they sent F-16. Rafales will probably be on the table once they enter service, however.

 

[siegecrossbow]

No photos to the best of my knowledge other than a transport plane at a Xinjiang airport. And given the fact that Americans keep close tabs on exported assets and didn’t raise hell with the Emiratis, I don’t think they sent F-16. Rafales will probably be on the table once they enter service, however.

They also sent Mirage-2000 in 2023 based on this satellite photo. Nothing can be kept in secret.

 

[TomcatViP]

M2K-5F traditionally Air to Air oriented airframe from AdlAE destined to Ukraine will be modified in the South West of France, on an air force base, Cazeaux (instead than at a manufacturer site, apparently) to carry A2G ordonnance similarly to their Greek counterparts:

Depuis, avec la dissolution de l’Assemblée nationale et l’impasse politique qui en a découlé, ce projet de cession de Mirage 2000-5 à l’Ukraine n’a plus fait parler de lui. Jusqu’à ce que le quotidien Sud Ouest l’évoque à nouveau, dans un article dédié aux 80 ans de DGA Essais en vol [DGA EV] à Cazaux.

« Une partie des Mirage 2000-5 que la France compte livrer à l’Ukraine seront ‘transformés’ à Cazaux. Et ce, afin de les doter de capacités de tir sur des cibles au sol », a en effet avancé le journal, dans son édition du 18 septembre.
---------------------------

Since then, with the dissolution of the National Assembly and the resulting political impasse, this project to sell Mirage 2000-5s to Ukraine has not been talked about again. Until the daily Sud-Ouest mentioned it again, in an article dedicated to the 80th anniversary of DGA Flight Tests [DGA EV] in Cazaux.

“Some of the Mirage 2000-5s that France plans to deliver to Ukraine will be ‘transformed’ at Cazaux. And this, in order to equip them with the capabilities of firing at ground targets,” the newspaper stated in its September 18 edition.

Les Mirage 2000-5F promis à Kiev par Paris auront finalement une capacité air-sol - Zone Militaire

À plusieurs reprises, lors d'auditions parlementaires, le ministre des Armées, Sébastien Lecornu s'était attaché à démentir les rumeurs sur une possible

www.opex360.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836325299224473735

View: https://x.com/Jeff21461/status/1836325299224473735?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1836325299224473735%7Ctwgr%5Ec43ac042bd5325dc029a4e7cdc8f653869bd7b9f%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.opex360.com%2F2024%2F09%2F19%2Fles-mirage-2000-5f-promis-a-kiev-par-paris-auront-finalement-une-capacite-air-sol%2F

 

[TomcatViP]

Taiwan M2K fleet returns to flight after a brief grounding following the crash on the 10th of September:

Mirage 2000 fleet to resume operations after safety checks - Taipei Times

Bringing Taiwan to the World and the World to Taiwan

www.taipeitimes.com

Regarding the Mirage that crashed:

on Sept. 10, [...] a Mirage 2000-5 aircraft, serial No. 2047, was conducting nighttime exercises when the engine stalled, causing the plane to go down off the coast of Hsinchu County.

 

[Nicolas10]

Happy for Ukraine but - I will die on this hill - this will not help France baseline combat jet force objective, which is 225, Rafale-M included (40); hence 185 AdA combat jets.

It doesn't help France any other way either. But oh well