The important question here is how many of these PLA silos are operational and how many of them are actually loaded.
Best to assume it's all of them.
Best not to assume anything and do proper intel work to find out the real answer.
Obviously Scott’s approach, given current geostrategic realities, is correct WHILE making sure we are using all NATECH means at the same time to ultimately determine the exact extent of the threat

It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).
Via CDR Salamander:
blog.usni.org

The Age of the Conventional SLBM is Here

I cannot stop thinking of the utility of what the South Korean navy is building here. A relatively large, modern SSK with 6 and soon 10 launch tubes for large cruise or ballistic missiles. Via Naval News, just look at this beautiful beast; If the day of assuming any SLBM launch being nuclear is...
blog.usni.org
blog.usni.org
Why we should double or triple our Columbia purchase
———————
From the SK ballistic missile thread. Could find more scattered throughout different threads about “matching the number of Ohio’s, having 20-24 tubes, etc.
 
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.

At any given moment it’s a half dozen baskets hiding in any one of up to four different oceans.
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent. All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.

At some point one passes beyond nuclear deterrence into shear paranoia. Nukes cost money and there is an upper limit to what is practical. I consider all of the current US nuclear recapitalization projects as practical and necessary, but as you know I disagree that land mobile missiles are survivable against China next decade.
Maybe you should read more and type less. Several hundred mobile ICBMs are less than 10 SSBNs. We've had far more in the past.
 
It's not doable now. You need around a megawatt, or more, just to take out an antiship missile from a few miles away. Nothing like that even being dreamed about for space applications and you'd need far more to reach down from orbit to take out a much heavier built TEL. And "under cover" could be something as simple as trees. Or just put a reflective aluminum "roof" on your TEL. This is trivial stuff.
It is doable. A nuclear reactor weighing 10t can produce 50MWth, so about 25MWe.


Scale that up to 40t and you have 100MWe. FEL lasers up to 30% efficiency are possible.


So that's 30MW from 100MWe.

Now 2 points of note:

1. FELs are frequency tuneable.
2. At 351nm there is an atmospheric window (near-UV):

View attachment 693653

3. The shorter wavelength also allows for better focusing of the beam relative to antennae size (as per radars).
4. The air is most dense at sea level, so 1MW gives you only about 10km (https://sgp.fas.org/crs/weapons/R41526.pdf) when using a longer wavelength laser, which produces a thicker beam. A satellite would fire down through space and thin atmosphere, the air below 10km altitude would probably produce more absorption than the air between 10-100km altitude, and 2MW is effective at 300km in space (http://www.projectrho.com/public_ht...aser_Bombardment--Martin_Marietta_Zenith_Star). So overall absorption would be minimal relative to a 30MW beam.
5. Al isn't that great a reflector. And after converting to gaseous phase after absorbing 30% of the remaining radiation (still of the order of tens of MW) it will be a very poor reflector indeed.

View attachment 693654

Case in point, lasers are used for machining Al. It's only a problem at longer wavelengths.


View attachment 693657
You didn't claim it was doable in some imaginary future. You said it was doable NOW. It isn't. You just showed us why.
 
You didn't claim it was doable in some imaginary future. You said it was doable NOW. It isn't. You just showed us why.
I claimed the technology exists to do it now, not that it had been done. There's obviously development and integration work to do, which would be true even if you were producing a new car. More recently:


At longer wavelengths, a recent experiment has demonstrated 30% energy extraction from a prebunched electron beam interacting with a large external laser seed in a strongly tapered undulator.


 
The important question here is how many of these PLA silos are operational and how many of them are actually loaded.
Best to assume it's all of them.
Best not to assume anything and do proper intel work to find out the real answer.
Obviously Scott’s approach, given current geostrategic realities, is correct WHILE making sure we are using all NATECH means at the same time to ultimately determine the exact extent of the threat

It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).
Via CDR Salamander:
blog.usni.org

The Age of the Conventional SLBM is Here

I cannot stop thinking of the utility of what the South Korean navy is building here. A relatively large, modern SSK with 6 and soon 10 launch tubes for large cruise or ballistic missiles. Via Naval News, just look at this beautiful beast; If the day of assuming any SLBM launch being nuclear is...
blog.usni.org
blog.usni.org
Why we should double or triple our Columbia purchase
———————
From the SK ballistic missile thread. Could find more scattered throughout different threads about “matching the number of Ohio’s, having 20-24 tubes, etc.
There is a basic issue here, what nuclear forces you can afford and the balance with non-nuclear forces you can simultaneously afford, and which balance actually provides the optimal deterrent effect.

The US can’t afford massive ramp up of its nuclear forces while maintaining it current non-nuclear forces. Indeed it is struggling to afford to renew its nuclear forces at approximately the same current level while maintaining its non-nuclear forces at their approximate current level.

It is clear that after the collapse of the USSR the US increasingly focused on maintaining and strengthening its advantage over it likely adversaries in non-nuclear forces (in ultimate effectiveness , not overall numbers). Given the conflicts fought and not fought in this period that decision has largely been vindicated. When faced with an alternative approach (that of post-USSR Russia) of greater emphasis on nuclear weapons the impact and limitations of that alternative approach become clear.

The US can’t and won’t build 2 or 3 times the number of new SSBNs, or massively ramp up land based ICBMs including but not limited to new mobile ICBMs; any attempt to get any where near this would need to be at the expense of the non-nuclear forces which are probably at least as important in deterring a conflict with Russia or China as the nuclear forces are.

At the likely end of the START treaties combined with a larger more capable Chinese land based and sub based ICBM forces will likely see a move towards larger number of active warheads deployed on existing systems and on their replacements as they enter service. There may even be modest relatively small increases in the numbers of new ICBMs, subs, B-21s and the environment may help politically secure these systems procurements and related programs like the new nuclear armed air launched cruise missile.

But fantasies of exponential growth are just that; pure fantasies unconnected to economic or political realities (or even the likely favoured priorities and choices of the US armed forces even if the required additional funding did just magically appear). And the few exponents of these fantasies must know they are just fantasies; they appear to be being pushed primarily for “signalling” purposes (the right wing cold-war warrior equivalent of virtue signalling?).
 
Last edited:
The important question here is how many of these PLA silos are operational and how many of them are actually loaded.
Best to assume it's all of them.
Best not to assume anything and do proper intel work to find out the real answer.
Obviously Scott’s approach, given current geostrategic realities, is correct WHILE making sure we are using all NATECH means at the same time to ultimately determine the exact extent of the threat

It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).
Via CDR Salamander:
blog.usni.org

The Age of the Conventional SLBM is Here

I cannot stop thinking of the utility of what the South Korean navy is building here. A relatively large, modern SSK with 6 and soon 10 launch tubes for large cruise or ballistic missiles. Via Naval News, just look at this beautiful beast; If the day of assuming any SLBM launch being nuclear is...
blog.usni.org
blog.usni.org
Why we should double or triple our Columbia purchase
———————
From the SK ballistic missile thread. Could find more scattered throughout different threads about “matching the number of Ohio’s, having 20-24 tubes, etc.
There is a basic issue here, what nuclear forces you can afford and the balance with non-nuclear forces you can simultaneously afford, and which balance actually provides the optimal deterrent effect.

The US can’t afford massive ramp up of its nuclear forces while maintaining it current non-nuclear forces. Indeed it is struggling to afford to renew its nuclear forces at approximately the same current level while maintaining its non-nuclear forces at their approximate current level.

It is clear that after the collapse of the USSR the US increasingly focused on maintaining and strengthening its advantage over it likely adversaries in non-nuclear forces (in ultimate effectiveness , not overall numbers). Given the conflicts fought and not fought in this period that decision has largely been vindicated. When faced with an alternative approach (that of post-USSR Russia) of greater emphasis on nuclear weapons the impact and limitations of that alternative approach become clear.

The US can’t and won’t build 2 or 3 times the number of new SSBNs, or massively ramp up land based ICBMs including but not limited to new mobile ICBMs; any attempt to get any where near this would need to be at the expense of the non-nuclear forces which are probably at least as important in deterring a conflict with Russia or China as the nuclear forces are.

At the likely end of the START treaties combined with a larger more capable Chinese land based and sub based ICBM forces will likely see a move towards larger number of active warheads deployed on existing systems and on their replacements as they enter service. There may even be modest relatively small increases in the numbers of new ICBMs, subs, B-21s and the environment may help politically secure these systems procurements and related programs like the new nuclear armed air launched cruise missile.

But fantasies of exponential growth are just that; pure fantasies unconnected to economic or political realities (or even the likely favoured priorities and choices of the US armed forces even if the required additional funding did just magically appear). And the few exponents of these fantasies must know they are just fantasies; they appear to be being pushed primarily for “signalling” purposes (the right wing cold-war warrior equivalent of virtue signalling?).
Quite a long and meaningless post as I was simply refuting the bolded comment. But rant away.
 
You didn't claim it was doable in some imaginary future. You said it was doable NOW. It isn't. You just showed us why.
I claimed the technology exists to do it now, not that it had been done. There's obviously development and integration work to do, which would be true even if you were producing a new car. More recently:


At longer wavelengths, a recent experiment has demonstrated 30% energy extraction from a prebunched electron beam interacting with a large external laser seed in a strongly tapered undulator.


By that rational we could build Orion-class space battleships today. I'm not holding my breath.
 
Or just put a reflective aluminum "roof" on your TEL.
5. Al isn't that great a reflector. And after converting to gaseous phase after absorbing 30% of the remaining radiation (still of the order of tens of MW) it will be a very poor reflector indeed.

View attachment 693654

Case in point, lasers are used for machining Al. It's only a problem at longer wavelengths.


View attachment 693657
Engineers with IR experience know that the (readily available) preferred IR reflection element is gold. Only an electroplated-thickness layer is needed for high power effectiveness; behind that can be a high-thermal-conduction microstructure to keep the gold layer from ablating at high incident power levels, and maintain it at an above-local-dew-point temperature.

Electroplated gold is hard to keep absolutely clean, which is essential for ultra high power reflection as each molecule of other substances becomes a hotspot during irradiation. One approach is to utilize a cleanable gold layer. Epner's proprietary "Laser Gold" technology is one example that goes in that direction. It's arguably still not practical for outdoor use, though.


Another approach would be to put the gold layer some distance behind a thin-film "tent" of polymer film, engineered to be IR-absorptive and to rapidly flash to gas without an intervening liquid period during which the polymeric substance would drip or spatter onto the gold reflector below. This polymeric "tent" material could be continuously scrolling so that its time for accumulation of dirt and debris would be short relative to the dirt incidence.
 
Engineers with IR experience know that the (readily available) preferred IR reflection element is gold. Only an electroplated-thickness layer is needed for high power effectiveness; behind that can be a high-thermal-conduction microstructure to keep the gold layer from ablating at high incident power levels, and maintain it at an above-local-dew-point temperature.

Electroplated gold is hard to keep absolutely clean, which is essential for ultra high power reflection as each molecule of other substances becomes a hotspot during irradiation. One approach is to utilize a cleanable gold layer. Epner's proprietary "Laser Gold" technology is one example that goes in that direction. It's arguably still not practical for outdoor use, though.


Another approach would be to put the gold layer some distance behind a thin-film "tent" of polymer film, engineered to be IR-absorptive and to rapidly flash to gas without an intervening liquid period during which the polymeric substance would drip or spatter onto the gold reflector below. This polymeric "tent" material could be continuously scrolling so that its time for accumulation of dirt and debris would be short relative to the dirt incidence.
Au works well for IR but performs even worse than Al against a FEL (Free Electron Laser) frequency of 351nm. Wavelengths as short as 0.15nm are also possible now.

1676751067742.png

 
Defence Updates has put out this video concerning the progress of the LGM-35A Sentinel ICBM:


The nuclear deterrence of a country depends on the nuclear triad. A nuclear triad is the capability to launch nukes from air, sea & land.

The U.S.'s nuclear triad includes B-2 and B-52 bombers with nuclear bombs & missiles, Ohio-class submarines armed with Trident II D-5 missiles, and Minuteman III ICBMs.

The Minuteman family of missiles has served as the backbone of the U.S. land-based nuclear strategic force since 1962. The Minuteman III began development in 1964 and entered service in 1970. The number shrunk to around 450 by September 2017 and currently, there are about 400.

Over the years Minuteman III has been found to be extremely reliable and several upgrades and life extension programs have kept it in working order. But now it is reaching the end of its service life, a new ICBM is being developed.

In this video Defense Updates analyze how LGM-35A Sentinel is shaping up?
 
Putin flagging intention to “suspend participation” in START.

I have to admit I'm surprised. I'd assumed they would stop honoring the treaty but not formally withdraw, like INF. Short term the US won't do anything to respond, and long term it would expire in 2026 anyway.
 
Deployed warheads need to be doubled, minimum, following this confirmation of the suspected.

It seems very unlikely Russia will actually change its posture in the short term. This seems more like a saber rattling to me. If it is formally declared, then its worth uploading Tridents as they come in for service, but drastic action isn't required unless Russia is seen uploading their weapons, which would not be something easy to hide.
 
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Deployed warheads need to be doubled, minimum, following this confirmation of the suspected.

It seems very unlikely Russia will actually change its posture in the short term. This seems more like a saber rattling to me. If it is formally declared, then its worth uploading Tridents as they come into service, but drastic action isn't required unless Russia is seen uploading their weapons, which would not be something easy to hide.
This is exactly what it is, since it is in Russia's best interest to keep the treaty in place. They don't have the money to expand their nuclear arsenal while the know the US does have that capability.
 
This is exactly what it is, since it is in Russia's best interest to keep the treaty in place. They don't have the money to expand their nuclear arsenal while the know the US does have that capability.
They don't really have the money for a drawn out war either, yet here we are.
 
Why - specifically - doubled?
If you have 4,000, then even allowing for a 50% failure+intercept performance, you still have at least 1,000 for Russia and 1,000 for China.
Where are any of those figures coming from?
With respect it appears most likely that you are literally plucking them out of the air.
 
The US could roughly double its deployed warheads using current launchers. 200 of 400 MM3s with W78s could be uploaded (the other 200 with W87 Mk21s apparently cannot). 50 undeployed silos could presumably be loaded with missiles with three warheads. The Trident fleet is generally 240 deployed tubes with 900-1000 warheads, or about ~4 warheads per missile on average. That could be loaded up to 8 (some reports claim more). After that you’d need more silos or more subs. 4000 would be unachievable short term unless you count cruise missiles and free fall bombs. There are certainly a thousand or more combined in storage.

Whether the above is necessary or not is a separate issue.
 
As I posted in the Sentinel thread we need a STRAT-X II to determine the long term deterrent posture, including of course force level, of the US out to 2050-70 and beyond.
 
Where are any of those figures coming from?
With respect it appears most likely that you are literally plucking them out of the air.
Current figures plus an allowance for changing times - China developing an equivalent nuclear arsenal to Russia (or greater) and North Korean build-up. Seems to be twice the threat. Does anyone even know Chinese ABM capability, bearing in mind there is no treaty in place there?

 
I thought there were 288 tubes? Put 8 in each and have 400-450 LGM-35As with 4 MARVs each.

20 tubes x 14 boats, but usually 1-2 subs are in overhaul with their tubes empty counting as undeployed. I think the four unused tubes are ballasted with concrete and can’t be restored.

MM3s are three wings of three squadrons of 50 missiles I believe. To get down to 700 launchers, fifty silos are empty and undeployed.
 
20 tubes x 14 boats, but usually 1-2 subs are in overhaul with their tubes empty counting as undeployed. I think the four unused tubes are ballasted with concrete and can’t be restored.
Why the hell did they do that? Did they even consider the affect of that on acoustics?

Surely not having a missile in them would have complied with the recently deceased New START.
 
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I think the four unused tubes are ballasted with concrete and can’t be restored.

That's news to me, do you have any links confirming this?

Can’t confirm. Heard it one place once. I actually can’t find anything about how the Ohios had their four tubes denuclearized. It’s possible they can be restored to service, though I’m assuming that it probably isn’t cost effective compared to just uploading missiles anyway.
 
I can't find anything at all on a Google search.

I can't either. I can't remember the source; it was many years ago so I can't vouch for it. A broader search doesn't give any details other than four tubes were denuclearized; mechanism unknown.
 
IIRC the USS Ohio and three other SSBNs of the Ohio-class had those four launch tubes converted to non-nuclear uses including two of the tubes turned into airlocks for Navy SEALS teams to use in covert operations.
 
IIRC the USS Ohio and three other SSBNs of the Ohio-class had those four launch tubes converted to non-nuclear uses including two of the tubes turned into airlocks for Navy SEALS teams to use in covert operations.
The first four Ohios had all of their tubes denuclearized, with the first two being converted to lock out chambers and the other 22 being converted into 7 round UGM-109 launchers.
 

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