S01 E40 - Dr. Chris Yeaw - Ultra-Low Yield Weapons - Why does Russia have so Many?
 
By having a robust deterrent instead of the anemic, decrepit one we have now.
The SSBNs seem pretty convincing to me. I think all of the existing programs (LRSO, SSBN, Sentinel, B-21) provide enough capability if they are sufficiently funded and fielded in the needed numbers. Maintaining peer deterrence is enough, IMO. It just needs to be expanded to two players, and I think existing programs can hit that target in time for the late 2020's when Chinese nuclear expansion starts to press up against US deterrence. IMO in the long run, Russia can't afford to maintain what it has in the 2030's.
SSBNs are but one leg of the triad. I'm talking about our nuclear infrastructure/capability in its entirety. We can't make new warheads. We can barely make pits. None of our ICBMs, existing or planned, are mobile. None of our ICBMs, existing or planned, are in the class of the DF-41 or SARMAT. None of our cruise missiles, existing or planned, are even supersonic let alone hypersonic. We have no tactical nuclear weapons aside from a small bomb that is over half a century old. Our largest nuclear weapon is barely a megaton. (Yes, yes, we all know about accuracy but if you need to hit a LARGE target you're forced to use multiple of your limited number of weapons instead of one.)
We can and we are making new warheads.

We don't need our ICBMs to be mobile and we do have DF-41 class missiles, they are called Trident D-5s which are mobile...

What LARGE target requires Megaton class weapons?

Stop with the fearmongering, we have different requirements from our nukes than other people have. For one we also have a very robust conventional deterrent, that for example Russia does not have.
 
We can and we are making new warheads.

We don't need our ICBMs to be mobile and we do have DF-41 class missiles, they are called Trident D-5s which are mobile...

What LARGE target requires Megaton class weapons?

Stop with the fearmongering, we have different requirements from our nukes than other people have. For one we also have a very robust conventional deterrent, that for example Russia does not have.

I think what's concerning is the military manufacturing infrastructure that China has been building up to meet its China 2050 goal. The entire nation is dedicated towards this long term strategic goal. What has the US been doing while China's been executing on this plan?

It's been busy getting surgically dismantled by the nation who wrote The Art of War.
 
 
Even little old North Korea knows mobile is the way to go.

View attachment 693141
Wake me up when North Korea has a proper SSBN with long-range SLBMs
It’s almost like there are significant differences between North Korea and the US in relation to their existing and future nuclear forces and the potential threats they face, leading to differences to how these forces are configured and deployed…..
 
The important question here is how many of these PLA silos are operational and how many of them are actually loaded.
 
The important question here is how many of these PLA silos are operational and how many of them are actually loaded.
Best to assume it's all of them.
Best not to assume anything and do proper intel work to find out the real answer.
Obviously Scott’s approach, given current geostrategic realities, is correct WHILE making sure we are using all NATECH means at the same time to ultimately determine the exact extent of the threat.
 
The important question here is how many of these PLA silos are operational and how many of them are actually loaded.
Best to assume it's all of them.
Best not to assume anything and do proper intel work to find out the real answer.
Obviously Scott’s approach, given current geostrategic realities, is correct WHILE making sure we are using all NATECH means at the same time to ultimately determine the exact extent of the threat.
Many (potentially most?) contributors and readers here probably wouldn’t agree that making such a massive assumption is the obvious correct course of action.

But this is anyway self-evidently a not-serious non-argument. US and other Western nation’s intelligence and understanding of China’s actual nuclear forces is obviously significantly more informed and sophisticated than the simple counting of silos and thankfully the (so far) old fashioned early-cold-war scaremongering as is being practised here has relatively little purchase in US debate and decision making re: their nuclear forces by recent administrations of both parties.

It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).
 
Last edited:
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.
 
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.

At any given moment it’s a half dozen baskets hiding in any one of up to four different oceans.
 
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.

At any given moment it’s a half dozen baskets hiding in any one of up to four different oceans.
And the Chinese have gone to great lengths to increase their ability to detect, locate, and destroy those submarines. The Fat Leonard scandal, for example, wasn't just about winning contracts with the US Navy by bribing their officials, it was an intelligence gathering operation to understand the schedules and logistics of US naval vessels, including boomers. And that's just one dimension to that puzzle, espionage goes deep and that's not the only event that's compromised boomer operational security.

We want to believe and promote the concept that boomers can loiter anywhere undetected because it makes us feel strong, but they are vulnerable. And it concerns me that certain groups have advocated an increase to boomers in lieu of scrapping land based ICBMs.

I wonder why?
 
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.

At any given moment it’s a half dozen baskets hiding in any one of up to four different oceans.
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent. All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.
 
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent. All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.
All mobile forms have disadvantages. A sub could be found and destroyed by another sub, but the day an orbital laser platform or NPB is created will be a sad day for land mobile launchers. Whatever the difficulties of finding a submarine, finding a 30m long wide-green load in a single country is a piece of cake by comparison.
 
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent. All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.
All mobile forms have disadvantages. A sub could be found and destroyed by another sub, but the day an orbital laser platform or NPB is created will be a sad day for land mobile launchers. Whatever the difficulties of finding a submarine, finding a 30m long wide-green load in a single country is a piece of cake by comparison.
It will be some time before there are lasers in orbit powerful enough to destroy an armored TEL under cover.
 
All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.
It depends on whether the submarine force can make the best use of the Pacific Ocean. The technical upgrade of SSBN must also be combined with a more effective operating concept.
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent.
Ground-based nuclear facility has no particular advantage in nuclear strategy unless it can launch a hypersonic weapon that can stay in space while conducting orbital bombardment at any time.
Whatever it's not a good idea to give up the vast Pacific Ocean beyond the first island chain,that's much lager than the continental America.In my opinion the first island chain has not been completely controlled by the opponent.
 
It will be some time before there are lasers in orbit powerful enough to destroy an armored TEL under cover.
It's doable* now with money and you can be damn sure that the likes of China will be working on something.

*Maybe not if it's under cover, but if it is, then it ain't mobile no more.
 
Last edited:
It will be some time before there are lasers in orbit powerful enough to destroy an armored TEL under cover.
It's doable* now with money and you can be damn sure that the likes of China will be working on something.

*Maybe not if it's under cover, but if it is, then it ain't mobile no more.
It's not doable now. You need around a megawatt, or more, just to take out an antiship missile from a few miles away. Nothing like that even being dreamed about for space applications and you'd need far more to reach down from orbit to take out a much heavier built TEL. And "under cover" could be something as simple as trees. Or just put a reflective aluminum "roof" on your TEL. This is trivial stuff.
 
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.

At any given moment it’s a half dozen baskets hiding in any one of up to four different oceans.
And the Chinese have gone to great lengths to increase their ability to detect, locate, and destroy those submarines. The Fat Leonard scandal, for example, wasn't just about winning contracts with the US Navy by bribing their officials, it was an intelligence gathering operation to understand the schedules and logistics of US naval vessels, including boomers. And that's just one dimension to that puzzle, espionage goes deep and that's not the only event that's compromised boomer operational security.

We want to believe and promote the concept that boomers can loiter anywhere undetected because it makes us feel strong, but they are vulnerable. And it concerns me that certain groups have advocated an increase to boomers in lieu of scrapping land based ICBMs.

I wonder why?

I’m not advocating for removing any part of the triad; I just think the paranoia is overblown.

If China knew the course, speed, depth, and captain’s wife’s bra size, what exactly would they do about it? Fly an unescorted Y-8 out to Wake or the Indian ocean? Or Arctic Ocean? Mediterranean? Smoother that particular patch of ocean with nuclear surface blasts? What exactly would be the threat even if those boats could be reliably tracked several thousand miles outside Chinese airspace?

A couple hundred feet of ocean water is better cover than three meters of steel reinforced concrete.
 
Last edited:
It is not like there is actually only a limited binary choice between “weak willed” complacency and massive expansion of US ICBM force (missiles and warheads) continually being pushed by the same usual suspects on this site. It is interesting that same voices do not appear to be interested in pushing for an expansion of the US SSBN fleet (or even mention its existence most of the time).

Too many eggs in one basket.

At any given moment it’s a half dozen baskets hiding in any one of up to four different oceans.
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent. All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.

At some point one passes beyond nuclear deterrence into shear paranoia. Nukes cost money and there is an upper limit to what is practical. I consider all of the current US nuclear recapitalization projects as practical and necessary, but as you know I disagree that land mobile missiles are survivable against China next decade.
 
I'd rather have several hundred baskets scattered across an entire continent. All it takes is one breakthrough and those SSBNs are useless for anything but a first strike.
All mobile forms have disadvantages. A sub could be found and destroyed by another sub, but the day an orbital laser platform or NPB is created will be a sad day for land mobile launchers. Whatever the difficulties of finding a submarine, finding a 30m long wide-green load in a single country is a piece of cake by comparison.
It will be some time before there are lasers in orbit powerful enough to destroy an armored TEL under cover.

But it’s something a missile can do today at ranges of a couple thousand miles.
 
It will be some time before there are lasers in orbit powerful enough to destroy an armored TEL under cover.
It's doable* now with money and you can be damn sure that the likes of China will be working on something.

*Maybe not if it's under cover, but if it is, then it ain't mobile no more.

It is certainly true that the US is training AI to use commercial satellites to provide artillery targets NOW. I can’t believe China wouldn’t have a way of identifying ICBM TELs from orbit before they even entered service.
 
It's not doable now. You need around a megawatt, or more, just to take out an antiship missile from a few miles away. Nothing like that even being dreamed about for space applications and you'd need far more to reach down from orbit to take out a much heavier built TEL. And "under cover" could be something as simple as trees. Or just put a reflective aluminum "roof" on your TEL. This is trivial stuff.
It is doable. A nuclear reactor weighing 10t can produce 50MWth, so about 25MWe.


Scale that up to 40t and you have 100MWe. FEL lasers up to 30% efficiency are possible.


So that's 30MW from 100MWe.

Now 2 points of note:

1. FELs are frequency tuneable.
2. At 351nm there is an atmospheric window (near-UV):

1676580130577.png

3. The shorter wavelength also allows for better focusing of the beam relative to antennae size (as per radars).
4. The air is most dense at sea level, so 1MW gives you only about 10km (https://sgp.fas.org/crs/weapons/R41526.pdf) when using a longer wavelength laser, which produces a thicker beam. A satellite would fire down through space and thin atmosphere, the air below 10km altitude would probably produce more absorption than the air between 10-100km altitude, and 2MW is effective at 300km in space (http://www.projectrho.com/public_ht...aser_Bombardment--Martin_Marietta_Zenith_Star). So overall absorption would be minimal relative to a 30MW beam.
5. Al isn't that great a reflector. And after converting to gaseous phase after absorbing 30% of the remaining radiation (still of the order of tens of MW) it will be a very poor reflector indeed.

1676580185939.png

Case in point, lasers are used for machining Al. It's only a problem at longer wavelengths.


1676580507034.png
 
Last edited:
It is certainly true that the US is training AI to use commercial satellites to provide artillery targets NOW. I can’t believe China wouldn’t have a way of identifying ICBM TELs from orbit before they even entered service.
True, but the moment I start firing missiles into targets inside a nuclear-armed country, I start getting missiles back. The laser avoids this problem and also neutralises the issue even if it does occur.
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom