Current mystery aircraft / urban legends

Saw this online and in one of Michael Schratt's presentations. According to him, the A-12 Avenger was built after Lockheed bought an part of General Dynamics. Did research online and found nothing on this subject. Most likely fake, but still thought it would be cool to share.
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Ninja said:
Saw this online and in one of Michael Schratt's presentations. According to him, the A-12 Avenger was built after Lockheed bought an part of General Dynamics. Did research online and found nothing on this subject. Most likely fake, but still thought it would be cool to share.
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This is a great example of an "urban legend", though one that has been somewhat manufactured. There are tiny bits of truth / fact woven within the BS to make it more believable. The author though is presenting the whole thing as fact though, when it clearly is not, and the various facts/truth have no association to each other aside from the fabrications of the author.

Let's take a look.

IT NOW APPEARS THAT THERE WERE IN POINT OF FACT "TWO ASSEMBLY LINES" RUNNING AT GENERAL DYNAMICS IN FORT WORTH TEXAS. ONE WAS THE NAVY VERSION OF THE A-12, AND THE OTHER, AN AIR FORCE VERSION.
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The Air Force was (supposed to) buy the A-12. That much is true.

There were not "two assembly lines" - there was not even one! The A-12 was never in production. While it is true that the Air Force was supposed to buy the A-12 , the Air Force would not have a different production line than the Navy.

It is also worth noting that the A-12 as seen in many models, the mockup at Ft. Worth, etc. is not representative of the production version. Late in the program major design changes were made. The "Flying Dorito" A-12 design (i.e. the design shown by the mockup) would have been used only for the first few pre-production aircraft (that were being constructed at termination). Later aircraft would be significantly different.

UNDER THE DIRECTION OF BEN RICH, SKUNK WORKS ENGINEERS IMMEDIATELY IDENTIFIED THE ORIGINAL STRAIGHT TRAILING EDGE OF THE A-12 AS A STRONG RADAR "SPIKE".
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It is true that the A-12 had RCS problems, and that the trailing edge was a significant part of that.
It is also true that Lockheed did buy/merge with General Dynamics several years after the A-12 was cancelled.

While the straight trailing edge certainly was a significant problem, the A-12 issues ran far deeper. Inlets, structures, materials, weight... It would have made no sense to continue with the A-12 design. Lockheed (and Ben Rich) were involved in the A-12 program before it was cancelled and were well aware of these issues (and how unsolvable they were).

Note that it does seem that the author may have read about the straight trailing edge problems on various threads here on SPF, where it has been discussed many times.


TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM, LOCKHEED ALTERED THE TRAILING EDGE BY ADDING A "NOTCH", AND ALSO MODIFIED THE WING-TIPS TO FURTHER REDUCE THE RCS.
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Adding a "notch" like that pictured would not improve the RCS, in fact it would probably make it worse. And the aircraft pictured is not based on the "real" production A-12 configuration, but the discarded earlier configuration.

... A JOINT LOCKHEED/BOEING PROGRAM ...
ORIGINALLY KNOWN ONLY AS "ARTICLE 119", IT'S NOW THOUGHT THAT THIS AIRCRAFT CARRIES THE DESIGNATION "F-119" SINCE IT HAS GONE OPERATIONAL.
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There was a Boeing Model 119, that is true, and it was an experimental / classified aircraft based in Nevada.

The "Article 119" and "F-119", in reference to a Boeing program, appears to be a reference to the Boeing Model 119. In 2010 Boeing posted a job listing for a position working on an experimental "Model 119" in Nevada. In the description Boeing listed some unusal characteristics for the aircraft.


Again, it appears the author is using SPF as a source.
Of course, "Model 119" does not mean it would be called "Article 119" or "F-119" as the author asserts. Neither of those designations would make sense for a special operations transport anyway.

IT'S MISSION APPEARS TO BE THAT OF A "STEALTHY TROOP TRANSPORT" USED IN HIGHLY CLASSIFIED SPECIAL FORCES MISSIONS
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I don't see how an overweight, unstealthy Navy bomber becomes "scaled up" to be a special operations transport. That just does not make any sense at all.

A GROUP OF THREE OF THESE UNACKNOWLEGED AIRCRAFT WERE PHOTOGRAPHED OVER AMARILLO TEXAS BY RESEARCHERS STEVE DOUGLASS AND DEAN MUSKETT ON ON MARCH 10, 2014. THE AIRCRAFT DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS APPEAR TO HAVE A TRIANGULAR CONFIGURATION, AND A TRAILING EDGE WHICH IS CLEARLY DIFFERENT THAN THAT USED ON THE B-2.
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I don't see how there is any connection between what was photographed over Texas in 2014 and this "scaled up A-12". The author seems to be taking the A-12 - a failed program - and changing it to fit altered photos of aircraft seen over Texas.

There is a long thread on SPF about the Texas "mystery aircraft":

From which the reader can draw their own conclusions. My own position - after a lot of trigonometry and photogrammetry - is that the aircraft in the photos are B-2s.

INDICATE THAT THESE AIRCRAFT MAY BE BASED OUT OF CANNON AFB (NM) AT A SECRET LOCATION KNOWN AS "LITTLE AREA 51"
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Ah yes, because a name like that would not attract attention!
Why not surround it with a street called "New Area 51 Road"?
 
I was not aware until now that the true production A-12 would be different. Are there any drawings or 3 views?
 
quellish said:
This is a great example of an "urban legend", though one that has been somewhat manufactured. There are tiny bits of truth / fact woven within the BS to make it more believable. The author though is presenting the whole thing as fact though, when it clearly is not, and the various facts/truth have no association to each other aside from the fabrications of the author.

Let's take a look.



The Air Force was (supposed to) buy the A-12. That much is true.

There were not "two assembly lines" - there was not even one! The A-12 was never in production. While it is true that the Air Force was supposed to buy the A-12 , the Air Force would not have a different production line than the Navy.

It is also worth noting that the A-12 as seen in many models, the mockup at Ft. Worth, etc. is not representative of the production version. Late in the program major design changes were made. The "Flying Dorito" A-12 design (i.e. the design shown by the mockup) would have been used only for the first few pre-production aircraft (that were being constructed at termination). Later aircraft would be significantly different.



It is true that the A-12 had RCS problems, and that the trailing edge was a significant part of that.
It is also true that Lockheed did buy/merge with General Dynamics several years after the A-12 was cancelled.

While the straight trailing edge certainly was a significant problem, the A-12 issues ran far deeper. Inlets, structures, materials, weight... It would have made no sense to continue with the A-12 design. Lockheed (and Ben Rich) were involved in the A-12 program before it was cancelled and were well aware of these issues (and how unsolvable they were).

Note that it does seem that the author may have read about the straight trailing edge problems on various threads here on SPF, where it has been discussed many times.




Adding a "notch" like that pictured would not improve the RCS, in fact it would probably make it worse. And the aircraft pictured is not based on the "real" production A-12 configuration, but the discarded earlier configuration.



There was a Boeing Model 119, that is true, and it was an experimental / classified aircraft based in Nevada.

The "Article 119" and "F-119", in reference to a Boeing program, appears to be a reference to the Boeing Model 119. In 2010 Boeing posted a job listing for a position working on an experimental "Model 119" in Nevada. In the description Boeing listed some unusal characteristics for the aircraft.


Again, it appears the author is using SPF as a source.
Of course, "Model 119" does not mean it would be called "Article 119" or "F-119" as the author asserts. Neither of those designations would make sense for a special operations transport anyway.



I don't see how an overweight, unstealthy Navy bomber becomes "scaled up" to be a special operations transport. That just does not make any sense at all.



I don't see how there is any connection between what was photographed over Texas in 2014 and this "scaled up A-12". The author seems to be taking the A-12 - a failed program - and changing it to fit altered photos of aircraft seen over Texas.

There is a long thread on SPF about the Texas "mystery aircraft":

From which the reader can draw their own conclusions. My own position - after a lot of trigonometry and photogrammetry - is that the aircraft in the photos are B-2s.



Ah yes, because a name like that would not attract attention!
Why not surround it with a street called "New Area 51 Road"?
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Could what was sighted in Texas have been an RQ-170 or the prototype of the RQ-180?
 
serg.gonzp said:
Could what was sighted in Texas have been an RQ-170 or the prototype of the RQ-180?
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Considering the aircraft’s length and wingspan matched the B-2, which commonly flies in groups of 3, it would be very unlikely to have been an RQ-170 or “RQ-180”
 
List of rumoured/mystery aircraft (taken directly from my digital notes):

-Aurora Spy Plane and 2 Stage Aurora/SR-75 Penetrator with XR-7 Thunderdart
-TR-3 Black Manta
-TR-6 Telos
-Copper Coast/X-24C
-ASTRA
-RQ-3 Darkstar Derivative
-Project Minion was rumoured to have gone black, might have been the rumoured drone above^
-F-121 Sentinel
-A-17 Stealth Swing-Wing, F-111 Ardvaark replacement
-Blackstar, 2 Stage Space Plane
-Stealth Blimp/s
-A12 Avenger Derivative
-Snow Bird/Brilliant Buzzard/Blackstar
-Artichoke, F117 Offshoot
-Northrop NGB Prototype
-F-117 Companion
-Mackbolin aircraft
-1999 Fastmover Sighting
-YF-43B
-Lockheed Test 2334
-RQ-180

Let me know if I missed any.
 
There is also the senior citizen, I also remember seeing a book about Lockheed in which the rumor of a high-speed plane that was tested in the late 70s or early 80s ( long before the legend of the aurora began ).
 
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Ninja said:
List of rumoured/mystery aircraft (taken directly from my digital notes):
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I recall someone in the 1990s describing all this as an 'embarrassment of riches' ie they can't all be real.

Chris
 
I see on the Plant 42 Palmdale FB group, that 'Was that a Sonic boom ~8:30am?' has been posted...

08;30am is broad daylight and cant imagine anything classified lifting off, unless its the Lockheed Martin X-59..

Plus as others have mentioned above that Palmdale is not exactly isolated in terms of main highways and roads and built up areas on the edge.

cheers
 
RavenOne said:
I see on the Plant 42 Palmdale FB group, that 'Was that a Sonic boom ~8:30am?' has been posted...

08;30am is broad daylight and cant imagine anything classified lifting off, unless its the Lockheed Martin X-59..

Plus as others have mentioned above that Palmdale is not exactly isolated in terms of main highways and roads and built up areas on the edge.

cheers
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Yes but it could have been something from EDW (shrug). Not exactly unusual to hear booms in and around Palmdale.
 
Whisperstream said:
Embarrassment is right. Most of the entries on that list are either unbuilt or entirely fictional.
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I should clarify that I am not claiming any of these are real. I decided to make a list just to have all these aircraft in one place and because there wasn't a full list before like the one I just made.
 
Ninja said:
I should clarify that I am not claiming any of these are real. I decided to make a list just to have all these aircraft in one place and because there wasn't a full list before like the one I just made.
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What's the approximate date of the earliest entry in your list?
 
It was rumored that the Northrop Light Co-Operative Fighter or LCF was built and flown. The design, known as the AP-2 "Shark" (not the NASA SHARC), may have involved a modified F-16 or F-5 with a unique wing design, circa 1978.
 
Ninja said:
-F-117 Companion
-Mackbolin aircraft
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1- Not that supposedly the black manta and the F-117 companion would be the same supposed plane
2- The most likely thing about the mackbolin sighting is that it was a misidentified NTPS Saab Draken.
 
Ninja said:
I think I started the list somewhere in August of this year.
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No, I meant how old are the concepts (or rumors thereof) themselves in chronological order, i.e. I think it would be helpful to put a year of first mention next to each of them. The next question would then be was there anything in that category that preceded the earliest entry, and if not, why not?
 
serg.gonzp said:
1- Not that supposedly the black manta and the F-117 companion would be the same supposed plane
2- The most likely thing about the mackbolin sighting is that it was a misidentified NTPS Saab Draken.
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Yes, im aware that the TR-3 was the rumoured F117 companion, but ive also seen rumors of other companion platforms that arent the TR-3. I know for sure the Mackbolin aircraft isnt anything secret, just an misidentified aircraft. Featured it for discussion and collective purposes.
 
martinbayer said:
No, I meant how old are the concepts (or rumors thereof) themselves in chronological order, i.e. I think it would be helpful to put a year of first mention next to each of them. The next question would then be was there anything in that category that preceded the earliest entry, and if not, why not?
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Just be thankful I made a list. I'll think about it. No, the aircraft are in no particular order, I just added them by which aircraft I could think of.
 
Also I think I once heard somewhere Ben Rich worked on an unknown Black Project in the 80's, though I've never been able to find the source in which I heard that from again.
 
Not trying to spam the thread, but today I had a dream of a black project getting declassified, I got real hyped up...just to wake up and realize it was a dream. Speaking of which, when was the last time something black got declassified? Was it the RQ-170 in 2009, or the SR-72 in 2013?
 
Ninja said:
Not trying to spam the thread, but today I had a dream of a black project getting declassified, I got real hyped up...just to wake up and realize it was a dream. Speaking of which, when was the last time something black got declassified? Was it the RQ-170 in 2009, or the SR-72 in 2013?
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The SR-72, from what I understand, is a design proposal, although there were people a couple of years ago who rumored that a technology demonstrator had supposedly flown.
 
The twin quiet VS/TOL prototypes I saw in outstate Minnesota 1989 also have not come to light. I have read two
other individuals had sightings of these crafts (one near the Pine Barrens in New Jersey around the same approximate time) and one other I'd have to look in my notes to see specifics.

This is the craft(s) that Jim Goodsall said were being tested in the "Midwest and Michigan" and that I was very fortunate to see them. Well, he was right about that since that was 34 years ago and were likely prototypes and I've
never seen anything like them since.
 
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Back in 2014 websites such as ATS and Dreamland Resort were rumors of an real image of the YF-24 being on the internet. I know this was previously discussed on this exact forum but I want to bring light to it again, for speculation purposes of course. I am aware ATS doesn't have the best reputation. I'm having a suspicion that the users claiming on both links below are the same individual. On the ATS link, someone did post an "image" of the YF-24, but in reality it was a image from the Boeing Model 24 study. On the Dreamland Resort forum, the user "weavty1" was dropping hints for people hunting the supposed YF-24 photo. Once again, I'm very sure its the same individual behind both profiles playing tricks on people.

Links: https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1015080/pg4


Cheers.
 

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