Chinese Liaoning Carrier enters service (former Soviet carrier Varyag)

[Deino]

Yes ... and I have to correct myself, there are even 7 visible on that image:

5 are on deck, 1 is being launched, 1 is on the elevator and there are also two Ka-28s or possibly Ka-31 and one Z-8/18 type helicopter.

Deino

 

[sferrin]

Makes you wonder why the US just didn't outbid them.

Did the United States government ever try to buy the hulk of the Varyag? Would the American people have laughed off the Clinton Administration if they had wanted to buy the hulk of a Soviet Union aircraft carrier for $20 million? What possible reason could they give for the purchase? What was the scrap value of the hulk? Did United States intelligence know at the time that Agencia Turistica e Diversoes Chong Lot was a shell company and that plans to convert the hulk to a floating hotel and casino were entirely untrue?

In 1998, if anyone had said that the hulk of the aircraft carrier Varyag was in fact going to the People's Republic of China to be refurbished into a sea-going warship, most people would have dismissed you as both crazy and offensive. At the time, most of us were totally unaware of the fraud and corruption concerning the purchase of the Varyag hulk. Would anyone have wanted to sour the trading and political relationship between the People's Republic of China and the United State with such an outrageous theory? Hindsight is 20/20. The People's Republic of China perpetrated an elaborate fraud to deceive us.

I can't speak for others but I know *I* sure as hell didn't believe they were going to make a casino out of it. Nope, doesn't seem like others were fooled either:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/sci.military.naval/china_carrier%22casino|sort:date/sci.military.naval/Krd2IXvVCJU/u2Bl8Fdmy_MJ

 

[Deino]

And it all was only a CG !!! :-[ :-[

sorry guys but this photo is actually a CG done by 西葛西造舰, he has done alot of top of the class CGs of PLAN ships including 055 and future aircraft carrier. he has made a claim on weibo about this photo being his and that it was made in 2013.

(via yuxiaochen / SDF)

Deino

 

[VH]

The fact that after all these years Chinese observers must resort to CGI to show progress on the Chinese carrier program is a sad commentary on the state of PLAN carrier operations.

 

[sferrin]

The fact that after all these years Chinese observers must resort to CGI to show progress on the Chinese carrier program is a sad commentary on the state of PLAN carrier operations.

That sounds like wishful thinking there.

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-holds-first-live-fire-drills-its-aircraft-carrier-n696801

 

[Deino]

The fact that after all these years Chinese observers must resort to CGI to show progress on the Chinese carrier program is a sad commentary on the state of PLAN carrier operations.

That sounds like wishful thinking there.

IMO it simply the lack of interest or knowledge of this certain reporter !

Any way ...

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_AIRCRAFT_CARRIER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-12-24-02-08-31

 

[kaiserbill]

Many more J-15 from just released footage. 13 at least.
also...I would ignore certain "contributions"...as they pretty much follow one single line only..unfortunately


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXQkPvz-YLg

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/27/asia/china-aircraft-carrier-pacific/index.html

http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39564&page=83#entry1284933

 

[Foo Fighter]

Apparently the new chinese carrier cruising the Pacific is sending a message. A very short message if push comes to shove.

 

[collins355]

The first of many

 

[muttbutt]

I remember when they said she'd never be in front line service and would be only used for training...oh how naive we were :-[

 

[sferrin]

I remember when they said she'd never be in front line service and would be only used for training...oh how naive we were :-[

Not everybody. I was totally confident this is exactly what would happen back when they bought their $20 million "casino". I thought we were the dumbest retards on the block for not outbidding them and buying it ourselves. Even at $5 billion and made into a reef off Florida it would have been cheap and money well spent.

 

[Hood]

Is it really that scary?
I wasn't quite three years old when the keel was laid, its spent the best part of twenty years a floating hulk and the Chinese must have spent a lot of cash and manpower to bring it back to a fit condition. I don't know if the Chinese installed a new powerplant or not but the original Soviet steam plant in Kuznetsov has been less than reliable and I note the Chinese burst a steam line during sea trials. Also look at the problems the Indians have had with Vikramaditya's plant despite the expensive overhaul.

I've no doubt the Chinese will use her as a training ship. They've never even operated a helicopter carrier before. They need to train the airgroup, the deck handling crew and also get their tactical organisation set-up and find out how to actually run carrier operations and where strategically a carrier will fit in. It will probably take them far longer to actually successfully operate a carrier task force than it will for them to build a couple more carriers. When Liaoning was Riga, Western analysts were writing about Soviet use in power projection (statements like the Su-25 was to offer ground support for just such operations) and they never really grasped these were defensive air-defence ships. Liaoning's Chinese copies will perform the same role, but it might take the Chinese time to really discover what they want, at times it looks like aping the other superpower in copying the US style. The Chinese might not realise quite how resource intensive carrier groups will be, many destroyers are going to be tied up protecting the future carriers, that could have dividends for the USN too.

 

[Deino]

The first of many

 

[dan_inbox]

Beautiful set!
Thank you, Deino.

 

[Foo Fighter]

No black smoke with this carrier then.

 

[Thorvic]

What's the Escort group consist of Deino ?, any mention of the ship types or names ?

 

[Deino]

What's the Escort group consist of Deino ?, any mention of the ship types or names ?

Yeppp ... her escorting vessels were
2 Type 052C destroyers - the 151 Zhengzhou / ESF and 171 Haikou / SSF
1 Type 052D destroyer - the 173 Changsha / SSF
2 Type 054 frigates - the 538 Yantai and 547 Linyi, both NSF
1 Type 056A anti-submarine corvette - the 594 Zhuzhou / SSF
1 Type 903A oil-tanker - the 966 Gaoyouhu / ESF

+ we know one image of an Type 093 SSBN

 

[Thorvic]

What's the Escort group consist of Deino ?, any mention of the ship types or names ?

Yeppp ... her escorting vessels were
2 Type 052C destroyers - the 151 Zhengzhou / ESF and 171 Haikou / SSF
1 Type 052D destroyer - the 173 Changsha / SSF
2 Type 054 frigates - the 538 Yantai and 547 Linyi, both NSF
1 Type 056A anti-submarine corvette - the 594 Zhuzhou / SSF
1 Type 903A oil-tanker - the 966 Gaoyouhu / ESF

+ we know one image of an Type 093 SSBN

Thanks Deino

 

[bobbymike]

http://chinapower.csis.org/aircraft-carrier/

 

[muttbutt]

Seems to be appropriate here.

J-15T EMALS test.

 

[Deino]

Yes, it's real ... reportedly taken from a lecture of Professor Ma Weiming - the main leader of the Chinese PLAN EMALS project at the Chinese Academy of Engineering – the first clearer image was released showing the J-15T prototype (no. 1x1) reportedly at the EMALS-catapult position.

Deino

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/log637

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/log637/rigavaryag_to_lianoning_40_years_apart_3048x1152/

 

[helmutkohl]

was gonna ask this in the Russian carriers thread but felt it could go here instead since the Liaoning is a Kuznetsov class ship.

Next week is the 4 decade anniversary of the first order of the Kuznetsov class carrier (march 3 1981). it would be laid down the following year.
One must admit, it was a really unique (perhaps innovative?) idea. carrying large amounts of missiles, and using both a ski jump but arrested recovery
it would later lead to the sister ship the Varyag which is now the Liaoning,


In retrospect, do you think that with these 4 decades of experience, was the type (both Kuznetsov and Liaoning) was a successful concept and design?
On the one hand, it inspired two other new built ships, one from India and the other from the PRC
on the other hand, some may criticize its reliability as well as limited applications of the actual aircraft.

What do you armchair admirals and actual admirals think?

 

[archipeppe]

In retrospect, do you think that with these 4 decades of experience, was the type (both Kuznetsov and Liaoning) was a successful concept and design?

They are essentially two unit of the same class (Project 11435), they are different mainly in various systems.

Said that is difficult to compare the long time career of Kuztnezov with the short operational service of Liaoning.
In my opinion the design itself proved to be sound but all the technical problems experienced by the Kuztnezov was linked to manufactoring and/or system faults rather than desing flaws.

 

[totoro]

I'd say they are successful enough for what they were designed for. If the concept was a failure, I doubt we'd have seen 002 being built and perhaps we'd not even have seen the Indian carrier conversion. That being said, "successful enough" and "efficient and capable compared to other carriers" are two different terms.

 

[Josh_TN]

A little off topic, here is where I believe the Russians are digging out the separation between two existing dry docks in order to create one large dock big enough for Kusnetsov, after the RD50 floating dock sank with the carrier in it. The ship itself is moored slightly north of the docs. I don't see why the Russians are investing this kind of effort into a ship so moderately effective, quite honestly. She sortied with all of a dozen fighters and lost two of them to accidents, if I remember her last deployment correctly. It doesn't seem like a good use of resources to refit her given her plant problems and age.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[starviking]

A little off topic, here is where I believe the Russians are digging out the separation between two existing dry docks in order to create one large dock big enough for Kusnetsov, after the RD50 floating dock sank with the carrier in it. The ship itself is moored slightly north of the docs. I don't see why the Russians are investing this kind of effort into a ship so moderately effective, quite honestly. She sortied with all of a dozen fighters and lost two of them to accidents, if I remember her last deployment correctly. It doesn't seem like a good use of resources to refit her given her plant problems and age.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It’s a carrier - despite its capabilities, on deployment it sends a message to friends and enemies alike.

 

[kaiserbill]

It also obviously keeps carrier aviation capabilities and competencies alive, until a replacement is sorted.
It keeps sea-borne fixed wing aviation current, in a doctrine sense. Any service tends to have adherents of different platform types.( Subs, etc)
I'm not sure why people struggle with this.

As for age, almost 40% of the current US navy carrier fleet are older, being laid down and launched before Kuznetsov.

And of course, the enlarged dock fits in with the general reinvestment and redevelopment of Russian shipyards seen in the last few years. It doesn't mean this enlargement is tied exclusively to the Kuznetsov only.

 

[Josh_TN]

Since Kuznetsov isn't at sea right now and lacks any propellers until it gets dry docked, it isn't fulfilling any core competency requirements. But I think where we differ fundamentally is on the idea that there is a future for Russian carrier aviation. Russian surface fleet production currently is limited to frigates. For infrastructure and budgetary reasons, I have a hard time seeing that change anytime in the future. So it is more "a replacement is sorted" that I disagree with.

 

[kaiserbill]

For infrastructure and budgetary reasons, I have a hard time seeing that change anytime in the future.
Russian surface fleet production currently is limited to frigates.

This again.

You mean apart from the two larger Modified Ivan Gren follow on vessels, which are 40% larger than the first two, laid down in Kaliningrad in April 2019?

Or apart from the two 40 000t Universal Amphibious Assault Ships laid down in July 2020 in Zaliv?

There is considerable reinvestment in their shipyard infrastructure.
There has been a phased process of renewing their fleet, with bottlenecks (engines) met and dealt with, with larger vessels being constructed as the plan develops.
They intend keeping the Kuznetsov around.
There are dots that can be connected.

There are a myriad of good reasons to keep the Kuznetsov around.
Clearly, the decision makers in the Russian Navy, with facts at their disposal that we are not privy to, feel it is worthwhile at this time.

 

[ceccherini]

was gonna ask this in the Russian carriers thread but felt it could go here instead since the Liaoning is a Kuznetsov class ship.

Next week is the 4 decade anniversary of the first order of the Kuznetsov class carrier (march 3 1981). it would be laid down the following year.
One must admit, it was a really unique (perhaps innovative?) idea. carrying large amounts of missiles, and using both a ski jump but arrested recovery
it would later lead to the sister ship the Varyag which is now the Liaoning,


In retrospect, do you think that with these 4 decades of experience, was the type (both Kuznetsov and Liaoning) was a successful concept and design?
On the one hand, it inspired two other new built ships, one from India and the other from the PRC
on the other hand, some may criticize its reliability as well as limited applications of the actual aircraft.

What do you armchair admirals and actual admirals think?

The project 1143.5 class carriers have basically the cost and complexity of a full size CATOBAR but offensive capabilities much closer to a small stovl carrier. As a weapon they have a terrible cost effectiveness ratio. Still they were for both the PLAN and the Soviet navy a monumental achievement, a political one. Both recognized carriers as the core of a fleet with global aspirations, both faced internal political opposition to their built. So you build a full carrier short of catapults and you call her a cruiser/training vessel. But still you have built a carrier and to have the next one catobar and nuclear powered now appears a relativly minor evolutionary step, an acceptable and conservative one. Not what they want, not the best they could have built but exactly the kind of ship necessary to subtly introduce a radical cultural change.

 

[kaiserbill]

Exactly.
Hence my use of the following in an earlier post above:

"It keeps sea-borne fixed wing aviation current, in a doctrine sense. Any service tends to have adherents of different platform types.( Subs, etc)"

 

[Josh_TN]

I've no doubt the Chinese will build an extensive fleet of carriers. I can't picture the Russians doing the same. Time will tell.

 

[SSgtC]

In retrospect, do you think that with these 4 decades of experience, was the type (both Kuznetsov and Liaoning) was a successful concept and design?
On the one hand, it inspired two other new built ships, one from India and the other from the PRC
on the other hand, some may criticize its reliability as well as limited applications of the actual aircraft.

I think it was a good idea to get better aircraft than the Harrier which had compromises forced on them for VTOL. But I view it more as a stepping stone on the way to a full up CATOBAR carrier rather than as an end point to reach.

 

[In_A_Dream]

I've no doubt the Chinese will build an extensive fleet of carriers. I can't picture the Russians doing the same. Time will tell.

I think they have the money to do so and have been playing their own game, decades of hoarding billions while smartly applying $$ to R&D to stay relevant.

 

[kaiserbill]

I've no doubt the Chinese will build an extensive fleet of carriers. I can't picture the Russians doing the same. Time will tell.

I have no doubt either, but that was not the point you initially made, which was that Russia are only currently making frigates, and this:

But I think where we differ fundamentally is on the idea that there is a future for Russian carrier aviation.

They don't have to match China nor the US.
They have never stated they would try.
It doesn't mean they won't operate a carrier or two or three, or whatever.
All evidence suggests a reinvestment into shipyards, and a slow but steady growth in the size of naval ships being constructed.
And an interest in keeping the Kuznetsov, and maintaining a fixed shipboard air component.
They built an onshore carrier aviation training facility in Yeysk, and are back at the NITKA carrier aviation training complex in Crimea. Kuznetsovs airwing have done training there since then.

The rest, the future, we can take educated guesses on, based on what is happening in front of us.

I personally think Kuznetsov will be overhauled. As they state.
I think it will continue thereafter for at least another decade, fulfilling a training and key-competency retention role.
After that, is a political decision, but the Russian navy obviously wants to be positioned to step onwards if it is given the green light.
All of which is very sensible.

 

[ceccherini]

I've no doubt the Chinese will build an extensive fleet of carriers. I can't picture the Russians doing the same. Time will tell.

I have no doubt either, but that was not the point you initially made, which was that Russia are only currently making frigates, and this:

But I think where we differ fundamentally is on the idea that there is a future for Russian carrier aviation.

They don't have to match China nor the US.
They have never stated they would.
It doesn't mean they won't operate a carrier or two or three, or whatever.
All evidence suggests a reinvestment into shipyards, and a slow but steady growth in the size of naval ships being constructed.
And an interest in keeping the Kuznetsov, and maintaining a fixed shipboard air component.
They built an onshore carrier aviation training facility in Yeysk, and are back at the NITKA carrier aviation training complex in Crimea. Kuznetsovs airwing have done training there since then.

The rest, the future, we can take educated guesses on, based on what is happening.

No doubt Russians have the technical and economic capabilities to build several carriers even in the Ford class. The point is they do not have anywhere a surface fleet to be deployed around them and that itself is an effort far more expensive and resource intensive that the construction of few very large ships. There are no active programs to build any surface combatant larger than a frigate. I can see one or two midsize STOBAR in a two decade timeframe but nothing more and mainly as a propaganda and prestige tool more than an asset with a defined strategic role.