Chinese Liaoning Carrier enters service (former Soviet carrier Varyag)

[Deino]

To admit I've heard that rumour to but one has to look where this and that rumour comes from. So far I'm informed, the currently most like option are at first two "modified" Varyag-design carriers before a new design will be begun.

Deino

 

[Wil]

Hello!

Four hi-res images of J-15 here (mediafire file, ~2.5 MB):

http://espacial-org.blogspot.com.ar/2012/11/primer-aterrizaje-sobre-un-portaaviones.html

Best wishes!

 

[2IDSGT]

The J-15 shows no hint of strengthening of nose gear for a future catapault bar, So i am guessing the rumor that China's first domestic carrier will be CATOBAR is unfounded.

I wouldn't discount the possibility just yet. The Chinese probably haven't started work on a domestic carrier (would be kinda hard to hide a project that size), and the J-15 is only a derivative of planes they already produce; so there's no reason to assume they're locked into the STOBAR system.

 

[chuck4]

The J-15 shows no hint of strengthening of nose gear for a future catapault bar, So i am guessing the rumor that China's first domestic carrier will be CATOBAR is unfounded.

I wouldn't discount the possibility just yet. The Chinese probably haven't started work on a domestic carrier (would be kinda hard to hide a project that size), and the J-15 is only a derivative of planes they already produce; so there's no reason to assume they're locked into the STOBAR system.

While I haven't seen a picture of the hull yet, the semi-official Chinese media, the pentagon, many presumably informed news outlets in Japan, Taiwan, Hongkong, etc have all said construction of the new domestic carrier has begun sometime ago in Shanghai.

 

[Creative]

To admit I've heard that rumour to but one has to look where this and that rumour comes from. So far I'm informed, the currently most like option are at first two "modified" Varyag-design carriers before a new design will be begun.

Deino

I wonder if the modified Varyag will feature a new smaller island or split island like the QE.

 

[2IDSGT]

The J-15 shows no hint of strengthening of nose gear for a future catapault bar, So i am guessing the rumor that China's first domestic carrier will be CATOBAR is unfounded.

I wouldn't discount the possibility just yet. The Chinese probably haven't started work on a domestic carrier (would be kinda hard to hide a project that size), and the J-15 is only a derivative of planes they already produce; so there's no reason to assume they're locked into the STOBAR system.

While I haven't seen a picture of the hull yet, the semi-official Chinese media, the pentagon, many presumably informed news outlets in Japan, Taiwan, Hongkong, etc have all said construction of the new domestic carrier has begun sometime ago in Shanghai.

I've heard the same rumors for years now, but there are simply too many eager amateurs combing through commercial satellite imagery these days for a Chinese carrier project to go undetected. Hell, even I can go to Google Earth and see India's IAC sitting forlornly unfinished alongside the Kochi Shipyard. If China has a carrier on the ways, it's most likely in the very early stages of construction, leaving options open for what type of deck they use.

 

[chuck4]

To admit I've heard that rumour to but one has to look where this and that rumour comes from. So far I'm informed, the currently most like option are at first two "modified" Varyag-design carriers before a new design will be begun.

Deino

I wonder if the modified Varyag will feature a new smaller island or split island like the QE.

Recent chinese warships and submarines have generally bore no external resemblence to acquired Russian warships in style, if not in actual equipment fit. I see no reason why they would change this with their first new carrier.

I am guessing the new Chinese carrier will stylistically share the enclosed, faceted, fared in look of other recent Chinese warships like type 071 dock landing ship. So it would have a totally different look from the Varyag.

 

[Broncazonk]

I wonder how much of a payload penalty there is using a 'ski jump' bow ramp versus a cat shot. It has to be approaching 50% does it not? And given the size of the flight deck, the number of Su-15 aircraft it can carry is what? Now factor in helos, a Chinese version of the E-2C, and the Growler version of the Su-15 and the Chinese carrier can launch a strike package of maybe 10 limited range/limited payload aircraft?

Does anyone have clarity on these questions? Thanks!

Bronc

 

[2IDSGT]

I wonder how much of a payload penalty there is using a 'ski jump' bow ramp versus a cat shot. It has to be approaching 50% does it not? And given the size of the flight deck, the number of Su-15 aircraft it can carry is what? Now factor in helos, a Chinese version of the E-2C, and the Growler version of the Su-15 and the Chinese carrier can launch a strike package of maybe 10 limited range/limited payload aircraft?

Does anyone have clarity on these questions? Thanks!

There seems to be some uncertainty (sorry, no clarity here) as to whether an E-2 class turboprop can operate effectively off of a STOBAR deck. The Russians were working on such an aircraft awhile back (Yak-44), but it seems to have been intended for the waist catapults of the Ulyanovsk-class carriers that were never finished. Then again, the wiki article says the Yak-44 could have operated from a ramp, but you know how that source goes over; maybe it could have done so with a reduced fuel-load.

In any case, I don't think the Chinese will stick with this configuration since their goals appear to be oriented more toward power-projection and not just sea-control. It's a respectable warship, but I'm guessing its main purpose is to provide basic operational experience that can be used for a better design.

 

[Grey Havoc]

An interesting viewpoint on an oft overlooked element of logistics onboard the Liaoning:
http://china-defense.blogspot.ie/2013/01/they-forget-to-call-it-aircraft-carrier.html

EDIT: A December 2012 post from the same blog:
http://china-defense.blogspot.ie/2012/12/pla-navy-makes-preparations-for.html

 

[chuck4]

I wonder how much of a payload penalty there is using a 'ski jump' bow ramp versus a cat shot. It has to be approaching 50% does it not? And given the size of the flight deck, the number of Su-15 aircraft it can carry is what? Now factor in helos, a Chinese version of the E-2C, and the Growler version of the Su-15 and the Chinese carrier can launch a strike package of maybe 10 limited range/limited payload aircraft?

Does anyone have clarity on these questions? Thanks!

There seems to be some uncertainty (sorry, no clarity here) as to whether an E-2 class turboprop can operate effectively off of a STOBAR deck. The Russians were working on such an aircraft awhile back (Yak-44), but it seems to have been intended for the waist catapults of the Ulyanovsk-class carriers that were never finished. Then again, the wiki article says the Yak-44 could have operated from a ramp, but you know how that source goes over; maybe it could have done so with a reduced fuel-load.

In any case, I don't think the Chinese will stick with this configuration since their goals appear to be oriented more toward power-projection and not just sea-control. It's a respectable warship, but I'm guessing its main purpose is to provide basic operational experience that can be used for a better design.

The nose gear of the new J-15 "sky shark" doesn't seem to have any provision for a catapault connection. It would be odd if the Chinese designed a version for the Varyag, and another version for the CATOBAR if the CATOBAR carrier is just around the corner. This suggests at CATOBAR carrier is not imminent.

 

[2IDSGT]

In any case, I don't think the Chinese will stick with this configuration since their goals appear to be oriented more toward power-projection and not just sea-control. It's a respectable warship, but I'm guessing its main purpose is to provide basic operational experience that can be used for a better design.

The nose gear of the new J-15 "sky shark" doesn't seem to have any provision for a catapault connection. It would be odd if the Chinese designed a version for the Varyag, and another version for the CATOBAR if the CATOBAR carrier is just around the corner. This suggests at CATOBAR carrier is not imminent.

Well, I never said that any carrier was imminent (I still think the next ship is some time off). I just reasoned that China's long-term goals are better aligned with the CATOBAR configuration. Not that I'd be heartbroken if they stuck with STOBAR; I just don't think they're that lazy.

 

[kaiserbill]

To admit I've heard that rumour to but one has to look where this and that rumour comes from. So far I'm informed, the currently most like option are at first two "modified" Varyag-design carriers before a new design will be begun.

Deino

I would agree with that assessment.

Reports suggest that when the Chinese did buy the hull of the Varyag, the Ukranians would only okay the sale if another $2 million was paid for the complete blueprints of the design. Total cost paid to the Ukrainian government was $25 million, I think.
If true, this puts a new perspective on such details as the Ukraine saying it shouldn't be used for combat purposes, as well as the engines issue.
There are also reports that Nevskoye Design Bureau designed a carrier in the late 1990's for China. Details and price of this transaction, if true, are scarce.
Looking at it, it makes perfect sense to use the ex-Varyag as a training carrier, construct another 1 or 2, perhaps with modifications.
You would then move on to a new design around 2020-2025, and have at least 2, possibly 3 carrier groups ready to start recieving the new design gradually.

 

[2IDSGT]

http://blogs.defensenews.com/intercepts/2013/01/china-confirms-y-7-for-aew-for-carrier-ops/

China Confirms Y-7 for AEW for Carrier Ops

A January 24 issue of the People’s Daily confirms that the military plans to use the Xian Y-7 as a carrier-based Airborne Early Warning (AEW) aircraft for carrier based missions. See original article and below photos. You’ll notice that the Y-7’s tail has been modified for carrier landings on the Liaoning. The Chinese have also been studying the U.S. E-2 Hawkeye, which is evident from these mock ups.

Well, the pics with this article suck, and the Chinese haven't confirmed which carrier it'll be operated off of or when it'll be ready. This is the original piece that says the Chinese might use the Y-7: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8105648.html Maybe Deino can tell us more.

 

[kaiserbill]

If true, and I cannot think of another reason for the modified tail, then this is pretty big news in its own right.

The assumption was that theZ-8 helicopter would be the AEW platform for the near to medium future.
Catapult(s) might be seen on the first indigineously built carrier, if the above is true.

 

[chuck4]

I somehow doubt this is really a prototype for a Chinese carrier AWAC. Y-7 is a hulking big airplane for carrier use, with fuselage 20 feet longer than E-2C. The Chinese carriers are expected to be rather smaller than US CVs. Y-7 will take up a lot of space on a smaller deck. I am guessing it is just a quick proof of concept, maybe a tool for aerodyanamic testing for the rotodome and tail configuration. Maybe it is a flying radar test laboratory for its radar.

I am guessing if the Chinese are really working on a carrier AWAC, it would be much smaller and probably based on a totally new airframe.

 

[kaiserbill]

That makes perfect sense, chuck.

 

[Deino]

The CV-16, Liaoning was transferred to its new home-base at Qingdao-Jiaonan and officially assigned to the North Sea Fleet:


BEIJING February 27, 2013 (AP)

Chinese reports say the country's first aircraft carrier is headed for its permanent base in the northern port of Qingdao.

Speculation has swirled over where the ship christened the Liaoning would call home since it officially entered service on Sept. 25 amid a series of maritime disputes between China and its neighbors.

Qingdao is home to China's Northern Fleet responsible for operations in waters surrounding Japan, Russia, the Korean Peninsula, and the Bohai Gulf, about 150 kilometers (93 miles) from Beijing.

The Liaoning is a refurbished Soviet-era carrier purchased from Ukraine that China has described as an experimental model. China is believed to have plans to use its experience with the Liaoning to build four or more carriers of its own, basing some in the South China Sea.

 

[2IDSGT]

China’s Testing Woes Remind That Developing Carrier Planes is Hard
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03/developing-warplanes-is-hard/

Very surprising for the Chinese to admit difficulty.

 

[GTX]

China's Second Aircraft Carrier Will Be "Larger"
(Source: Xinhua; published April 23, 2013)

BEIJING --- A senior officer with the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy said on Tuesday that "China will have more than one aircraft carrier."

Song Xue, deputy chief of staff of the PLA Navy, told foreign military attaches at a ceremony to celebrate the Navy's 64th founding anniversary in Beijing, "The next aircraft carrier we need will be larger and carry more fighters."

However, Song said some foreign media reports on China's building new aircraft carriers in Shanghai were not accurate.

Currently, China operates one aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, which was refitted based on a Russian-made unfinished carrier and delivered to the Navy on Sept. 25, 2012. The PLA Navy was founded on April 23, 1949.

Song, a Rear Admiral of the Navy, said the Liaoning does not belong to any of the Navy's three fleets, but under direct command and management of the Navy's headquarters.

Zhang Zheng, the Liaoning's Captain, told foreign military attaches that his crew members have mastered independently operations of all the weapon systems on the carrier.

The Liaoning has a full displacement of more than 50,000 tonnes. The carrier's original design allows it to carry about 30 fixed-wing aircraft. Song Xue said the Navy hoped that the next carrier could be larger to load more aircraft.

He also revealed that the Navy is building naval aviation force for the Liaoning, and there will be at least two aviation regiments on one carrier, including fighters, reconnaissance aircraft, anti-submarine aircraft, electronic countermeasure (ECM) planes and rotary-wing aircraft.

The Liaoning has conducted successful take-off and landing tests of its carrier-borne J-15 fighters, the main striking force of China's carrier group.

Song said the J-15 still needs a lot more trial tests before being operational on the carrier, and there will be more J-15 fighters as the Navy conducts more test flights.

The officer said China's future carrier group will be composed of carrier, destroyers, frigates, submarines and supply ship.

According to Song, more than one thousand Chinese enterprises have participated in the construction and refitting work of the Liaoning.

The officer also promised that the Navy will invite foreign military attaches to visit the Liaoning.

-ends-

 

[chuck4]

Interesting. One wonders how much larger, and whether the flight deck will have a different layout.

 

[kaiserbill]

Interesting. One wonders how much larger, and whether the flight deck will have a different layout.

I'm convinced the larger design will closely mirror the bigger, cancelled, and scrapped Soviet carrier Ulyanovsk.

Apart from the rumours mentioning this, the following may be worth bearing in mind.:

I've seen it reported that when the Chinese bought the Varyag (now Liaoning), the Ukrainian government wanted an extra $2 million for the blueprints, which China paid for.
(If true, this also indicates that Ukraine knew or didn't care that the Chinese were interested in the ship from a military aspect, which is far more plausible than the rubbish trotted out previously)
It's not been confirmed whether these blueprints were for the Varyag, or the Varyag and Ulyanovsk.
Nikolayev 444 or Nikolayev South, was building both Varyag and Ulyanovsk.

Nevskoye Design Bureau designed both types.

Nevskoye Design Bureau is Russan, Nikolayev South is Ukranian.
It's been reported that Nevskoye also "designed a carrier for the Chinese" in the late 1990's, although neither they nor China disclosed the price or design.
Of course, the Varyag was purchased by the Chinese in 1998.

The Ulyanovsk was a powerful catapult equipped design, second only to the Nimitz Class.
The Ulyanovsk was also nuclear powered. Whether China goes that route,remains to be seen.

I'm personally almost sure China has the design blueprints for the Ulyanovsk.
And obviously I may be wrong, but I suspect any follow-on larger Chinese carrier will be very close to the Ulyanovsk design.

 

[chuck4]

I don't think so. Notice the Chinese didn't bother to imitate the soviet designs with any of their own recent surface warship designs, even though they were still buying comparable soviet destroyers in the early 2000s.


I think for the new carriers, the chinese may borrow lots of detailed solutions from the varyag, but I personally think it would be quite a different looking overall design from varyag and Ulyanovsk. The reason is while the soviet union clearly still had more experience than the Chinese in addressing detailed issues of warships, at this point the Chinese clearly no longer think the soviets really enjoy any advantage over the Chinese in either overall warship design. The soviets also evidently had no advantage over the chinese now in the operation of large fixed wing carriers.


At this point the Chinese could probably create overall design of fixed wing carrier just as good or better now as the soviets could have in 1980. But unlike the soviets, the Chinese could also reference newer western designs that came after 1980s.. So I doubt they would copy the Ulyanovsk.


I think it would be an original design, with cleaner, signature reduced design elements common on contemporary warships, including chinese ones. The flight deck layout would probably be influenced by the ford class or QE class, and wouldn't be a straight copy of anything Russian.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On the other hand, they might also decide to go all out and build their own version of the Ultracarrier.

 

[chuck4]

On the other hand, they might also decide to go all out and build their own version of the Ultracarrier.

I don't think so. The PLA has really been quite conservative in its military outlook throughout its history. I think it would totally out of character for them to gamble on something new that no one has proven the concept of before.

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://china-defense.blogspot.ie/2013/05/chinese-navy-forms-1st-carrier-borne.html

 

[VH]

Why the Liaoning remains tied up dock side is an ongoing mystery. There are many training tasks that could be completed even without an airwing that the Liaoning crew must master if they want to become proficient in carrier operations.

 

[Moose]

Not impossible that they've had some serious engineering casualties. The Kuznetsov class doesn't have the smoothest operational history to begin with and the PLAN folks have never operated anything on that scale before, let along for extended periods.

 

[kaiserbill]

Liaoning has just left the dock again yesterday for a voyage to conduct scientific experiments and sea training.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-06/11/c_132447284.htm

 

[Grey Havoc]

Likely unrelated, but on the off chance it is:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-06/10/c_132446087.htm

 

[chuck4]

Likely unrelated, but on the off chance it is:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-06/10/c_132446087.htm

These refer to the new Chinese deep submergence research subs and their month ships. They are currently the deepest diving free swimming manned submersibles in the world. Jame Cameron's recent stunt pogo stick submersible goes deeper but can't swim around when it gets to the bottom.

The Chinese are very aggresively pursuing sea floor resources in the East and South China seas. They are investing extremely heavily in a bid to attain preeminance in deep water exploration and resource extraction technology. Their territorial conflicts with Japan, Vietnam and Philippines largely has to do with Chinese intention to monopolize the sea floor resources in East and South China seas.

Incidentally, these Chinese new submersibles can go much deeper than the deepest parts of South and East China seas. So clearly their aspirations are not limited to the South and East China seas.

 

[kaiserbill]

Was watching this video on the Liaoning, even though I don't understand Chinese.

I haven't watched all of it, but wanted to post here about something I've seen.

At around 9:30 (or actually 9:34 to be precise) there is a brief view of a combat jet in yellow primer that I've never seen before.
Does anyone have any info on this jet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYT5Cftkbks

 

[sferrin]

It's a Flanker.

 

[Ray]

Looks like a Flanker except for the intakes. New one to me. Ray

 

[chuck4]

Was watching this video on the Liaoning, even though I don't understand Chinese.

I haven't watched all of it, but wanted to post here about something I've seen.

At around 9:30 (or actually 9:34 to be precise) there is a brief view of a combat jet in yellow primer that I've never seen before.
Does anyone have any info on this jet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYT5Cftkbks

It's a photo that's been circulating on the web. It is claimed to be a stealth offshoot of j-11, similar to the silent eagle. But it's just a photoshop fraud.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Yep, after the Flanker there's a brief still of a known photoshop creation. Nothing real I'm afraid.

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks all for the responses.

If nothing else, the rest of the video is interesting I suppose.

 

[fightingirish]

2 YouTube videos from Chinese TV showing CV-16 Liaoning returning to homeport after having completed testing and training missions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUPVW2ep4oc#at=55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWrli6-weYk

 

[VH]

The PLAN has proudly declared that they have mastered the art of carrier takeoffs and landings. During this latest workup the Chinese seem to have overlooked several safety issues. One is having no plane guard helo aloft during flight operations and the second (see attached pictures) is the failure to follow simple crew safety issues like providing proper protective steel toe footwear for the deck crew. At some point flight deck crew are going to lose a foot or some toes since you cannot cut corners on the flight deck

 

[sferrin]

It's all good. They've "mastered" it after all. ;D