sferrin said:On the other hand they didn't scrap the entire X-35 design like they did with the X-32.
Abraham Gubler said:sferrin said:red admiral said:On the other hand they didn't scrap the entire X-35 design like they did with the X-32.
Not this again? We went through this years ago...
There were only minor changes to the X-32 design to change the tail. These were made because the USN changed their requirement for control in landing. The changes were not made because of any fault in the design. But rather because the customer changed their mind half way through the program. And the changes may make the plane look different on the outside but they were very minor on the inside.
I understand that when someone *believes* something very strongly no amount of factual refutation can change their mind. But if you want to criticise the Boeing JSF entry there are plenty of actual factual reasons to do so. Not this made up one of them "scrapping the entire design".
sferrin said:red admiral said:sferrin said:Consider that the X-32 had to go to a sea-level location and leave parts on the ground just to do a vertical landing.
Whereas X-35 left the entire weapon bays out and hence shedded loads of fuselage structural mass in addition to transonic drag...
Not a like with like comparison
On the other hand they didn't scrap the entire X-35 design like they did with the X-32.
sferrin said:Saying the difference between a delta and a conventional wing with a 4-tail is "minor" does not make it so just because you believe it so. Sorry.
sferrin said:the X-32 as actually flown was clearly closer to the margins than the X-35 in more than just weight.
sferrin said:As for "minor change", I can't believe you would try to peddle that with a straight face. YF-22 -> F-22A yeah, those were a series of minor changes. Going from a delta wing to a standard swept wing and tail, no.
sferrin said:I'll give you point 2 (value of original design) though, given the required radical redesign of the OML, the X-32 as actually flown was clearly closer to the margins than the X-35 in more than just weight. As for "minor change", I can't believe you would try to peddle that with a straight face. YF-22 -> F-22A yeah, those were a series of minor changes. Going from a delta wing to a standard swept wing and tail, no.
Sundog said:sferrin said:I'll give you point 2 (value of original design) though, given the required radical redesign of the OML, the X-32 as actually flown was clearly closer to the margins than the X-35 in more than just weight. As for "minor change", I can't believe you would try to peddle that with a straight face. YF-22 -> F-22A yeah, those were a series of minor changes. Going from a delta wing to a standard swept wing and tail, no.
FYI, I wasn't talking YF-22 to F-22A, I was talking about how Northrop was held up flying their prototype that they didn't have to redesign while Lockheed completely redesigned their YF-22 submission. Of course, having said that, what I want to know is why the USAF wasn't able to figure out that the original YF-22 design was such a dog. Though it did look better than the YF-22 prototype they ended up flying. Granted, looks don't win the competition.
For reference, see their design proposal in the first image here.
Sundog said:sferrin said:I'll give you point 2 (value of original design) though, given the required radical redesign of the OML, the X-32 as actually flown was clearly closer to the margins than the X-35 in more than just weight. As for "minor change", I can't believe you would try to peddle that with a straight face. YF-22 -> F-22A yeah, those were a series of minor changes. Going from a delta wing to a standard swept wing and tail, no.
FYI, I wasn't talking YF-22 to F-22A, I was talking about how Northrop was held up flying their prototype that they didn't have to redesign while Lockheed completely redesigned their YF-22 submission. Of course, having said that, what I want to know is why the USAF wasn't able to figure out that the original YF-22 design was such a dog. Though it did look better than the YF-22 prototype they ended up flying. Granted, looks don't win the competition.
For reference, see their design proposal in the first image here.
RadicalDisconnect said:Sundog said:sferrin said:I'll give you point 2 (value of original design) though, given the required radical redesign of the OML, the X-32 as actually flown was clearly closer to the margins than the X-35 in more than just weight. As for "minor change", I can't believe you would try to peddle that with a straight face. YF-22 -> F-22A yeah, those were a series of minor changes. Going from a delta wing to a standard swept wing and tail, no.
FYI, I wasn't talking YF-22 to F-22A, I was talking about how Northrop was held up flying their prototype that they didn't have to redesign while Lockheed completely redesigned their YF-22 submission. Of course, having said that, what I want to know is why the USAF wasn't able to figure out that the original YF-22 design was such a dog. Though it did look better than the YF-22 prototype they ended up flying. Granted, looks don't win the competition.
For reference, see their design proposal in the first image here.
Reading Aronstein and Hirschberg's ATF book, it seems like the USAF chose Lockheed not because its actual aircraft design but because if its effort in performing trade studies on operational requirements. So what Lockheed actually submitted as their design was somewhat irrelevant. I think the basic configuration of the F-22 was designed in something like a few months in 1987.
Zeppelin said:I bet, it they had just got rid of the cleft chin design and gone for a more aggressive retro shark tooth edge - Would it really compromise performance. isn't this whole competitive pitch more about securing to contract and selling kit. So why not go and include the macho visual stuff too. it would make for some great fuselage art
Zeppelin said:Yes I whole heartedly agree that the minimising the radar signature would be the top priority. I have to admit to taking elider's comment and image on page 4 and photoshopping the inlet. I'm approaching this from a totally left of field direction, more as a graphic designer, having to solve ( or sell ) the client a solution. That, and that old adage, or Bill Lear's. that "if it looks good it will fly good". A very wooly area here, but, I bet there was no budget allocated to explore such aesthetic considerations. With some testing, I bet, some solution to tick off a good RS plus a less ugly look, may have secured the vote to win the contract. Please, please contradict me with some more rational engineering argument why Boeing lost, but as a "what if". I wonder what other aircraft lost out and less favoured, to other designs because they were deemed ugly?. It's a shame that, costly as it would have been, both should have been built for service in small numbers and tested in the field. But then, I did grow up in that era when the British built all 3 V-bomber versions, instead of opting for one. I know, the exorbitant cost and time these days, to get any winner into production for armed service, and that it's totally unlike any earlier Hurricane v Spitfire production decisions and pilot/popular vote, but I do enjoy everyones contributions over such projects that could have been. Do keep it up. Regards to you all. Z
flateric said:Mark Nankivil said:The last one I've not been able to find any other drawing remotely similar to it.
This is one of Boeing's multipurpose fighter studies from very early 90s. Pre-ASTOVL/CALF/JAST.
obviously aerodynamicskcran567 said:is this done for aerodynamic reasons or for stealth reasons.
sorry, this is plain BSScrutorAudax said:It is likely not straight because they were experimental planes and not prototype planes. The money and time of the design team was better spent in the system as a whole, rather than designing the plane to be stealthy.
Of course, overall stealth shaping, such as edge alignment, needed to be demonstrated, but the minute details of panel and chine shaping was likely not a priority, as the aircraft selected would see major changes.
Because PWSC was evolving. Clipped wingtip was at the early iterations.ScrutorAudax said:On a side note, does anyone know why some images of the PWSC X-32 have clipped wingtips and others (most of the images and the full-scale mock-up) have sharply pointed wingtips with the airfoil section showing at the wingtip?