battlecruiser HMS Tiger survives til Second World War?

[zoeafr]

I do not recall exactly the thinking process behind the Tiger, but the general idea was for her to be an improved "Queen Mary" class, because funds were limited, and she was ordered only under condition that her cost would not exceed the "Queen Mary"'s. So the scale of redesign was limited. Moving the Q turret to rear would require a massive redesign, including weight distribution along the hull, so it was likely out of question.

One thing I keep thinking about is the height of the catapult at that level; or rather the lack of; from old footache I have seen in some documentaries, the biplane dips a bit before gaining altitude when pushed off the ramp....The X turret location doesn't give a whole lot of leeway for errors or wind instability....It also probably is why they always tried to install the catapult in the higher turrets; The newer generation U.S and British warships had higher freeboards that allowed high enough catapults installations. This is a thought, and not an affirmation though....

 

[Arjen]

Machinery. They need a lot of space for machinery.

Precisely this. Queen Mary had Q turret between boiler rooms, Tiger had Q turret aft of the boiler rooms and the aft funnel to give it a clear arc of fire.
Moving Q turret even further aft would have necessitated moving engine rooms, which would have needed even more redesign and time, cost than was deemed acceptable.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I have to suppose that the admiralty were reasonably au fait with the facts of the day, that they would (I know, supposing an awful lot) put the tonnage and money in the best possible direction.

For me, I go for the simplest approach, do no more than you need to for the result required, sometimes I have to accept a less than optimal solution.

Weighing the points raised here, treaty limits, ship condition, cost of various rebuilds etc, I conclude that HMS Tiger was on borrowed time and the situation was not best for any kind of extension.

Not even in a position to be rebuilt as a carrier, not even for delivering aircraft to active ships.

More likely to be placed as a blockship somewhere.

 

[zoeafr]

I have to suppose that the admiralty were reasonably au fait with the facts of the day, that they would (I know, supposing an awful lot) put the tonnage and money in the best possible direction.

For me, I go for the simplest approach, do no more than you need to for the result required, sometimes I have to accept a less than optimal solution.

Weighing the points raised here, treaty limits, ship condition, cost of various rebuilds etc, I conclude that HMS Tiger was on borrowed time and the situation was not best for any kind of extension.

Not even in a position to be rebuilt as a carrier, not even for delivering aircraft to active ships.

More likely to be placed as a blockship somewhere.

It is a point of view; remember though that most ships, the ''R'' class, the QE class, The repulse class were all of within a couple of year of each other in terms of age and wear and tear; Of course, we were not there to see the exact situation; however in hind sight, it might have made sense to keep the Tiger past the 1930 treaty and give it the same treatment of at at least equivalent to the Barham. The point being that she could have been a more useful ship than one of the ''R'' class, simply by being able to have more speed as either a fast escort, or a pocket battleship, or a Sharnhorst class battleship hunter; opinions will always differ, especially on a one one one with a Sharnhorst class ship, but there is good information now to be able to make scenarios that are potent and logical.
That doesn't mean your opinion isn't worthy of discussion

 

[Dilandu]

Not even in a position to be rebuilt as a carrier, not even for delivering aircraft to active ships.

More likely to be placed as a blockship somewhere.

Well, the reconstruction of Iron Duke and Centurion back into warships WAS actually proposed and even calculated. Tiger have at least the advantage of relatively high speed.

 

[zoeafr]

Well, the reconstruction of Iron Duke and Centurion back into warships WAS actually proposed and even calculated. Tiger have at least the advantage of relatively high speed.

But since it wasn't approved, we would have to rely on a swap with an ''R'' ship, a proposition not easily accepted by the admiralty and their ''protection over speed'' mentality, and funds would restrict their views...

 

[Dilandu]

But since it wasn't approved, we would have to rely on a swap with an ''R'' ship, a proposition not easily accepted by the admiralty and their ''protection over speed'' mentality, and funds would restrict their views...

Just cancel the rebuild of HMS London in late 1930s, and you would get enough funding.

 

[zoeafr]

Just cancel the rebuild of HMS London in late 1930s, and you would get enough funding.

Sorry for my ignorance, which London is that? the only battleship I know of that period ( actually before) is the 1899 London....

 

[Dilandu]

Sorry for my ignorance, which London is that? the only battleship I know of that period ( actually before) is the 1899 London....

The C69 one, County-class heavy cruiser. In 1939-1941 she undergo a major refit (a belt armor was added, AA guns increased, superstructure rebuild).

 

[zoeafr]

The C69 one, County-class heavy cruiser. In 1939-1941 she undergo a major refit (a belt armor was added, AA guns increased, superstructure rebuild).

Oh, a heavy cruiser.... I hadn't looked into that........
Hmm... From what I just read, the new structure wasn't a success........

 

[Foo Fighter]

Looks like the refit and various repairs to that ship could have paid for a new build......

 

[Dilandu]

Looks like the refit and various repairs to that ship could have paid for a new build......

You means London? Well, she was supposed to become a prototype for all County-class rebuild - but due to war, the program was cancelled.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Yes mate, HMS London

If a success, it might have been worthy. Considering all the repairs required etc, not so much.

 

[zoeafr]

Looks like the refit and various repairs to that ship could have paid for a new build......

It all depends on what extent the work done would have cost; if it isn't a full rebuild, and only the bulge, some AA's and plating being installed, even a catapult, would be far below to the cost of a full reconstruction, which itself is less than a full new ship though quite expensive; however, the return on investment would have to be calculated...It probably is the main reason some, or most of the QE's were reconstructed instead of being discarded and new ships be built; and that proved to be a well thought decision...For that same reason, no work besides bulges and a few more AA's were installed on the ''R''s; the cost might not have justified the potential result...
In the case of the Tiger, there would hve been legitimate reasons to spend on a minimum upgrade, without going into deep reconstruction, and have a ship which had speed and a decent armament once some AA's are installed, for a wide variety of different duties, and it is this last aspect which makes it a worthwhile asset to have since there were only two others that could have made that job, and we both know the Repulse wasn't as good an asset as a tiger could have been....

 

[Foo Fighter]

It all depends on what extent the work done would have cost; if it isn't a full rebuild, and only the bulge, some AA's and plating being installed, even a catapult, would be far below to the cost of a full reconstruction, which itself is less than a full new ship though quite expensive; however, the return on investment would have to be calculated...It probably is the main reason some, or most of the QE's were reconstructed instead of being discarded and new ships be built; and that proved to be a well thought decision...For that same reason, no work besides bulges and a few more AA's were installed on the ''R''s; the cost might not have justified the potential result...
In the case of the Tiger, there would hve been legitimate reasons to spend on a minimum upgrade, without going into deep reconstruction, and have a ship which had speed and a decent armament once some AA's are installed, for a wide variety of different duties, and it is this last aspect which makes it a worthwhile asset to have since there were only two others that could have made that job, and we both know the Repulse wasn't as good an asset as a tiger could have been....

I think you missed the topic shift to the cruiser HMS London.

 

[zoeafr]

I think you missed the topic shift to the cruiser HMS London.

Oops)))
I didn't read that much on the HMS Londn but basically what I did read was that all that work caused some issues with the integrity of the main bridge struture. There is probably more to that, but I have not read the whole thing. As for the money potentially saved and put on the Tiger, yes those funds would have been more useful there; I think that the issue was that they had more flexibility with add-ons and modifications for a cruiser compared to the capital ship requirements. I will need to read more on that to have a better perspective..