BAC/Sud Aviation Concorde - Development, Variants, Projects

[blackkite]

Wasn't there a bit recently on BBC radio about someone trying to raise money for a new concorde?

Ummm........Concorde is noisy, especially at landing.

 

[Arjen]

Thanks alot Arjen-san. Pre production model length(Pre-production Concorde 101 G-AXDN dimensions on Duxford Aviation Society site) is little long? Pre production model had short tail.

I think somebody will have to visit Le Bourget and Duxford with a tape measure to settle this.

 

[blackkite]

Or ask BAE Systems or Airbus Group SE.

 

[Arjen]

Well, yes, but you would miss out on the exhibitions ;D

 

[blackkite]

Indeed. ;D

 

[Archibald]

I found a couple of papers dealing with the "Concorde B" and that much improved Olympus.
Which has a different name than "+25%" as mentionned in that site

CONCORDE SST : CONCORDE B

It was called the Olympus 593 mk.622 - larger fan and up to 10% to even 30% more thrust. 30% more thrust out of 18 tons, should be 24 tons, and not that far from the Boeing SST General electric GE4.

The papers are behind a paywall (and a pretty expensive one with that) but c'est la vie. I linked the first pages.

Anybody ever heard of a man called P.C Gupka that worked at Bristol engines in the late 70's ?

 

[Arjen]

Having just received my copy of Building Concorde by Tony Buttler and Jean Christophe Carbonel I leafed to the part with Concorde's dimensions to settle a point that has been vexing me for years - fuselage length of prototype/pre-production/production aircraft. Lengths in SI units made no sense, with the prototype's length given as 64.16m, pre-production 67.51m and production 61.66m. Length in Imperial measures looked better:
- prototype 184ft 4.5in - 56.20m
- pre-production 194ft 0in - 59.13m
- production 202ft 3.6 in - 61.66m

A minor glitch in an otherwise excellent book.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I found a couple of papers dealing with the "Concorde B" and that much improved Olympus.
Which has a different name than "+25%" as mentionned in that site

CONCORDE SST : CONCORDE B

It was called the Olympus 593 mk.622 - larger fan and up to 10% to even 30% more thrust. 30% more thrust out of 18 tons, should be 24 tons, and not that far from the Boeing SST General electric GE4.

The papers are behind a paywall (and a pretty expensive one with that) but c'est la vie. I linked the first pages.

Anybody ever heard of a man called P.C Gupka that worked at Bristol engines in the late 70's ?

Mr Gupta has a lot of articles on SST engines on the SAE.org website.

 

[toura]

Hi all
I worked in DBA airequipement from 1961 to 1988.
Here iss the storry of the hydraulic jack of the nose of
the Concord

 

[hesham]

A good Article about Concorde and its predessesors on Le Fana 3/2019.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Also, there is a nice piece about the flight testing of the Concorde in the April edition of Aeroplane. It's based on the recollections of the last surviving manufacturer's test pilot, Alan Smith.

 

[hesham]

From Icare 1963,

a model to Concorde.

 

[galgot]

A 1973 TWA agency model, this model was sold 10400 € at an auction in Paris... :

 

[blackkite]

Hi!

https://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2007_04_11_RAeS_Concorde.pdf

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 1961.

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 23/2/1962.

 

[Grey Havoc]

 

[uk 75]

Whereas the Comet and Caravelle gave way to fleets of Boeings until Airbus came on the scene, Concorde lived to see its Boeing rival broken up as a wood and cardboard mockup.
The future of the supersonic airliner may well be an executive jet sized plane for those prepared to pay the price.

 

[blackkite]

Recently I feel ecological big size subsonic liner is enough for me.
I could travel France, Italy, Spain, U.S, Bali and Singapore economically by my favorite 747.
But I want to travel by SST for once in my life.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

GALLERY | speedbirdconcorde

speedbirdconcorde.wixsite.com

 

[galgot]

Artem mikoyan with the Super-Caravelle SST model at Le Bourget 1961:

 

[hesham]

From; A span of wings.

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks Hesham.

From where or from who comes the "Study for a delta canard configuration based on the Mirage IV" : Dassault ? Sud-Aviation ? Other ?

 

[galgot]

Thanks Hesham.

From where or from who comes the "Study for a delta canard configuration based on the Mirage IV" : Dassault ? Sud-Aviation ? Other ?

I think it's the same as this one :

so Dassault (with MIV wing)

(Sorry Hesham, responding at your place )...

 

[hesham]

From where or from who comes the "Study for a delta canard configuration based on the Mirage IV" : Dassault ? Sud-Aviation ? Other ?

My dear Deltafan,I think my dear Galgot gave the answer,and many thanks to him,really I didn't
remember this Project,in reply # 20.

 

[dan_inbox]

Galgot, I have a nagging doubt about the document "Super Caravelle by Dassault SàRL" which you posted:
Caravelle was a trademark of Sud-Aviation / Aérospatiale, the arch-rival of Dassault, and appropriating it would be a blatant infringement.
Plus the use of English language by the "French Air Ministry", back then in 1961, would be another big infringement.

I wonder whether this is anything from a real ~official French source, or the creation of some journo/fanboi/whatever.
What is the source?
(Great doc nevertheless)

 

[galgot]

Galgot, I have a nagging doubt about the document "Super Caravelle by Dassault SàRL" which you posted:
Caravelle was a trademark of Sud-Aviation / Aérospatiale, the arch-rival of Dassault, and appropriating it would be a blatant infringement.
Plus the use of English language by the "French Air Ministry", back then in 1961, would be another big infringement.

I wonder whether this is anything from a real ~official French source, or the creation of some journo/fanboi/whatever.
What is the source?
(Great doc nevertheless)

Hi Dan_inbox,
It’s from this document :

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783307.pdf

Page 69.
(Hesham posted it already on page 1)

Not sure about it being a fan art… From the Sud-Aviation Super-Caravelle wikipedia page (as far as we can trust Wikipedia…) :

Sud-Aviation Super-Caravelle — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

it seems GAMD did participate to early studies . After all they had a small share of the production latter.

Same drawing can be seen on this MAE page , so it seems a real stuff ?

Plans - Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace

En raison du montage de l’exposition Flight, le hall de l’Entre-deux-guerres sera fermé aux visiteurs jusqu’au 16 décembre inclus. Le Hall Concorde sera exceptionnellement fermé […]

www.museeairespace.fr

Maybe both Sud-Aviation and Dassault submitted their own separate studies early on during the French only program,
then latter Sud-Aviation one being selected, then merged with the very similar Bristol 223 ?
Could’nt find something "official" tho…

EDIT: January 1967 article in INTERAVIA, do mention the participation of Dassault at the time it was still called "Super-Caravelle"

CAP AVENIR CONCORDE – La passion partagée

cap-avenir-concorde.fr

"Or, tout récemment, ce projet semble avoir fait un grand pas en avant, sous l’impulsion peut-être de Sud-Aviation qui – ce ne fut pas une surprise – a publié un plan trois-vues et quelques caractéristiques du moyen-courrier supersonique que cette société doit réaliser avec le concours de Dassault. De plus, il a été révélé que les deux constructeurs français, en coopération avec la British Aircraft Corporation et, probablement, avec d’autres firmes européennes, entendaient se mettre à l’œuvre sans tarder. Enfin, on a appris que le prototype de la Super-Caravelle effectuerait son premier vol en 1965 et que les appareils de série pourraient être mis en service en 1968."


Btw, here two pict of the Sud-Av Super-Caravelle in AirFrance markings:

 

[galgot]

found that beauty :

from here:

Aéronautique | Vente n°2466 | Lot n°457 | Artcurial

SUD AVIATION et G.A.M.D. Maquette de la Supercaravelle Long.: 43 cm. (17 in.), Env.: 21.5 cm. (8 1/2 in.) Conçu par Lucien Servanti, cet avion de ligne bénéficiait des solutions techniques adoptées pour la classe d'avions de chasse de type Mirage. Une maquette du projet est présentée au...

www.artcurial.com

 

[galgot]

And from "Building Concorde: From Drawing Board to mach 2", T. Buttler/JC Carbonel :

Pict of the same model as above.

 

[dan_inbox]

Thanks much for all this great info. I did not remember that GAMD collaborated with Sud-Aviation and BAC for a while. That explains everything.
Beautiful model, too.

 

[Deltafan]

found that beauty :
View attachment 625104

Great finding Galgot !

 

[galgot]

Too bad the pictures are so small :/ Still I think I can make "Générale aéronautique Marcel Dassault" on the fuselage.
there is a sh!tload of interesting stuff on that site , here a Concorde in Continental livery by paul Lengellé :

Aéronautique | Vente n°2466 | Lot n°454 | Artcurial

Paul LENGELLE (1908-1993) Supercaravelle en livrée Continental Airlines Gouache, Signée et datée 64 en bas à droite 96 x 144 cm. (37 3/4 x 56 3/4 in.) Estimation 600 - 900 €

www.artcurial.com

 

[Deltafan]

Too bad the pictures are so small :/ Still I think I can make "Générale aéronautique Marcel Dassault" on the fuselage.

I think too

 

[galgot]

from FANA 02/2019 :


Dassault had an option for that one with hinged wing tips like XB-70 :
"
Les trois constructeurs présentèrent leurs conclusions en 1961, Dassault et Nord gardant la configuration canard, tandis que Sud proposait une Super-Caravelle qui ressemblait déjà beaucoup au Concorde que nous connaissons. Nord proposa une variante Mach 3, hors sujet par rapport aux orientations stratégiques choisies. Le projet Dassault se caractérisait par une option à géométrie variable (basculement vers le bas des extrémités d’ailes lors du vol supersonique). Sud Aviation, pressentant une réorientation de la stratégie commerciale, introduisit la Super- Caravelle IIID, optimisée pour le vol transatlantique
"

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[Grey Havoc]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/fgf1fp

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Were there to be any military variants of the Concorde?

 

[Deltafan]

Were there to be any military variants of the Concorde?

As What if yes, but in reality I think no.

Military Concorde

Curious to know if Concorde was ever considered in a military role, maybe as a recce aircraft or cruise missile platform? Would this have been feasible?

www.secretprojects.co.uk

 

[Grey Havoc]

A user called Vega ECM made the following interesting statement at the bottom of a related thread at https://forum.keypublishing.com/sho...e-for-the-RAF-(Zombie-Thread-from-2006)/page2:

"A good few years ago I was in the Concorde archive legitimately looking for something but couldn't resist from typing 'Military Concorde' into the search. Only two documents came up;- the first dated 1970, was a study on how much of military value could be learnt by the Chinese if they bought a few, but the second dated 1974, was a proposal to the RAF for military versions. This report was about 40 pages and detailed 3 potential versions;- The first was a transport version , a drawing shows a swing nose and landrovers driving down a long ramp. This proposal was covered by just 2 of the 40 pages and really had very little detail. The next is a supersonic strike aircraft. A drawing shows 3 nuclear strike missiles (looking a bit like AGM-69 SRAM's) within the fuselage launched on angled tubes exiting the fuselage underside. This proposal runs to about 10 pages. There's quite a bit of info on mission profile, tactical equipment fit etc. The third proposal is for a tactical recon version. This occupies the majority of the report. Lots of info on camera / radar / eves dropping kit / decoys / ECM mission profiles etc. I would suggest the number of pages in the report probably represents the relative interest from the customer.

Good stuff, all history now."

In the late 1970s I believe Concorde was seriously looked at again as a RAF VIP transport (in particular as an alert evacuation aircraft for members of the Royal Family in the event of a nuclear exchange). The last Military Concorde project confirmed to date was a proposal to procure Concordes for the RAF as Backfire (and later in addition Blackjack) simulators. First proposed in the early 1980s. There have been reports of a EW/ELINT proposal from around the mid-1980s though.

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1962.

 

[galgot]

A friend of mine has this beautiful print of a Concorde in Continental livery by Paul Lengellé :

Apparently Lengellé did a bunch of Continental Concorde images.